Collapse of China

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Cannot agree with you there rockiescot - apples and organges.  Sure - both can and do have corruption, and both can and do have a small number of people gaining most advantage.  But Capitalism is based on individual rights and freedoms, and the allowance of market driven mechanisms (regulated, but not totally controlled) to direct the best use of resources and methods of production.  Socialism is based on strict centralised Government planning and control over society and resources and production, and that control is maintained by the removal of individual rights, State ownership of resources, and tight regulations over every facet of production. 

With all respect Bob thats wrong.

The ultimate goal of capitalism is exactly what China looks like now.

There is nothing in capitalism which protects individual rights or freedoms. Quite the opposite in fact. Smash unions. Destroy collective bargaining. Contracts which allow instant dismissal for no reason. Zero hours contracts. Drive down costs meaning low wages except for the elites. State control over everyones freedoms and all the media. No regulation regarding health and safety. No regulation to prevent the elites becoming even richer.

China is now the end game as far as capitalism works.

[Rookiescot]

11 hours ago, Stardust said:

Sorry I agree but it is the opposite the eu top up the troops and the spending for the armies this was decided in th EU parliament and national. Do you know how many countries are in the EU and Nato? By the way Nato also pushed his members to 2 % more spending of the gdp and since the Ukraine trouble all the spending for the military/ Nato went up strongly. Where do you get your info because exatcly the opposite happened?! And you aware of the French Army and the Units they build up together with Germany and nuclear powers the last 20 years?

Sorry it is the opposite and had a new high record in spending for the military.

Its all very well championing increased spending on defense but look at where the troops are stationed. If they are not in theater then they are no use.

Also remember France has historically refused to put its troops under NATO command. Indeed you could say France is only a partial member of NATO. 

[PBS]

9 hours ago, Poolie said:

Ok but where does 'Socialist ways' come into it? We see Americans preaching 'dimock racee" all the time on various public screens. Not a sign of the Chinese. In fact, a corrupt politician is just that, and seldom ideological.

Seems everyone has different interpretations of 'socialist for me meaning translates to equivalent of welfare state in the UK which I support. Other extreme is PRC Leninist dictatorship and so on. Sorry never heard to 'dimock racee', did a Google search, but can't locate - please explain.

[PBS]

15 hours ago, Stardust said:

I find a bit strange to write and think the Nato is just the USA and the uk

Never posted such claim, don't appreciate your repeated false allegations.

[PBS]

9 hours ago, Stardust said:

Check the date of it and decided to top up again and now it is much over it and you know why? It is by the gdp and the new gdp numbers are lower because of the covid crises. The english version is from the numbers before covid but they said it was not enough and rised the spending again. 

The figures quoted are from the published German defence budget for 2021 which was a top up of 3% on previous year budget, not an additional 3% of GDP. Below is a URL which talks in more detail confirming Germany has yet to reach 2% of GDP for NATO and possible unlikely to reach 2% by agreed target timeline of 2024.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/despite-nato-pressure-german-defense-budget-has-failed-increase -191897

Long overdue to move along as discussion of German NATO defence spending is way Off Topic.

 

[AussieBob]

10 hours ago, PBS said:

It is a fact PRC is utilising influencing methods around the world, including corrupting a few politicians here in Australia (it's amazing the relatively small amount of money needed). On the other side of the coin with the aggressive nature of XI's policies, Oz has recognised the potential political and economic threats and acting accordingly - same applies to other Western countries.

Absolutely correct PBS - The CCP has been using the monetary gains they achieved through trade with the western world, in order to influence things they want to influence in the world. The fact that the CCP has completely hidden who and how and what caused Covid in Wuhan, and they have got away with it, is an example of that power they now have. Likewise, that power and influence has allowed them to get away with their atrocities in Tibet and against Muslims and in Hong Kong (just a few examples - there are many more).  And right now they are pushing hard for Taiwan to be 'taken over', after decades of pressure has forced most other Nations to not recognise Taiwan as what it is - a separate country that was formed (and allowed) after Mao embarked on his take-over of China and his Stalinist removal of all dissent.  The western world is now getting close to saying enough is enough - and China is taking its own actions to remedy decades of false economic growth - because the west is pulling back and will continue to pull back more and more going forward. 

[AussieBob]

10 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

With all respect Bob thats wrong.

The ultimate goal of capitalism is exactly what China looks like now.

There is nothing in capitalism which protects individual rights or freedoms. Quite the opposite in fact. Smash unions. Destroy collective bargaining. Contracts which allow instant dismissal for no reason. Zero hours contracts. Drive down costs meaning low wages except for the elites. State control over everyones freedoms and all the media. No regulation regarding health and safety. No regulation to prevent the elites becoming even richer.

China is now the end game as far as capitalism works.

I agree to completely disagree Scot and leave it at that. Sorry, but any argument saying the CCP are the ultimate form of Capitalism is not within my realm of reason. 

[Stardust]

2 hours ago, PBS said:

The figures quoted are from the published German defence budget for 2021 which was a top up of 3% on previous year budget, not an additional 3% of GDP. Below is a URL which talks in more detail confirming Germany has yet to reach 2% of GDP for NATO and possible unlikely to reach 2% by agreed target timeline of 2024.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/despite-nato-pressure-german-defense-budget-has-failed-increase -191897

Long overdue to move along as discussion of German NATO defence spending is way Off Topic.

The numbers are not from 2021 the article was from 7th februar 2021 how it can be the numbers of 2021? By the way 2021 is even not finished yet.

[PBS]

33 minutes ago, Stardust said:

The numbers are not from 2021 the article was from 7th februar 2021 how it can be the numbers of 2021? By the way 2021 is even not finished yet.

FFS, the numbers are the German government 2021 defence budget allocation - it's so straightforward to comprehend, Looks like you're unable to acknowledge an error of comprehension - had enough of your stubbornness. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by PBS

[Stardust]

20 minutes ago, Stardust said:

53 billion Euro for German Nato units thats even much more including all demands for the units tech capabilities etc.

So now make your math!!!

To understand it better you have to understand the differences between houshold budgets and mission budgets and that there are different units also. By the law every mission like for example actual in Mali it has go through the parliament including budgets for missions. It is separated and not in the core household defense budget. 

[Stardust]

2 hours ago, Stardust said:

The numbers are not from 2021 the article was from 7th februar 2021 how it can be the numbers of 2021? By the way 2021 is even not finished yet.

I stop that now read the numbers of the defence ministry and take all the budgets and understand mission budgets are seperated . Then take all the units spending not only Nato and then take the gdp. The page explains it very well and why this discussion is an old one. Some didnt understand that Germany not has only Nato units and some not understand that every mission has decided by the paliament including budgets because it is regulated like that. But they recordnized the complain and put up the household budgets for the Nato units even they fullfilled all troop capabilities from the Nato demand. This they already explained Trump! It is very good explained on the ministry pages!

[Poolie]

Dimmock racee - democracy. Sorry.

[ThailandRyan]

The fallout has started to hit the country

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fd7cccaa4-743a-430e-8be4-d60e009029e9%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0YwwWQnTWykv0q0mmhlP4FS_cjF6GM3uHJDKOZ-zbjOy9phhnVN9T4guA&h=AT3uDurixk9p59Iot3VUaww9xU69leJF8-M0EFDKQ5CUEq53t4zJyT8mndrguRFCvFNNcmIxtMSqXUUk6DeFV6iItDCvqIJ__1FSmZHZGBCTXaankJUHaoIUz37oedM3DxIAI98L4DfA

Private equity groups are planning to cut their exposure to Chinese real estate as concerns mount over the health of the sector following the default last week of indebted developer Evergrande. Coller Capital, a London-based private equity specialist, said in a report on Monday that almost a third of groups with exposure to China would decrease their investments in the country’s real estate sector over the next three years. Not one investor said they planned to increase their investments. The report came days after Evergrande, the world’s most indebted property group, was downgraded to “restricted default” by rating agency Fitch. Investors have been trying to gauge how far the contagion from Evergrande’s default will spread after a number of rival developers missed offshore bond payments in recent months. The sector has come under heavy pressure in the past year after Beijing unveiled a “three red lines” policy to curb developer debt. “Potential defaults and liquidity problems of large developers have ignited concerns about a system-wide contagion affecting not just the property sector but the entire supply chain,” said Manishi Raychaudhuri, Hong Kong-based head of Asia-Pacific equity research at BNP Paribas Securities.

The Coller report also showed that more than a third of investors with exposure to Asia outside China planned to invest more heavily in other parts of the region. Recommended Evergrande Real Estate Group Evergrande bondholders settle in for lengthy restructuring process Signs that the Evergrande default would disrupt Chinese markets intensified on Monday, with the Hang Seng Mainland Properties index, which tracks 10 of China’s biggest developers, falling as much as 3.6 per cent. Shares in Shimao Group, one of China’s biggest developers, fell as much as 13.8 per cent, while Sunac China Holdings, another developer, dropped 7.9 per cent. Sunac came under scrutiny after a draft letter to a local government warned it was facing liquidity issues. Fantasia Holdings, a midsized developer whose shares resumed trading on Monday after a two-week suspension, fell as much as 9.4 per cent before clawing back losses to trade flat. Fantasia defaulted on a $206m bond in October.

The market sell-off contrast sharply with last week, when the initial reaction to news of Evergrande’s missed payment on bond coupons totalling $82.5m was tempered by signals that Beijing would offer policy support to the struggling sector. But investors were disappointed on Friday, after Chinese economic policymakers declared that “property is for living, not speculation”, repeating a mantra used to justify the restrictions on developer leverage.

Edited December 14, 2021 by ThailandRyan

[palooka]

 

Evergrande can't pay its debts. China is scrambling to contain the fallout (9news.com.au)

Global investors may 'take a hair cut'

The massive restructuring is going to come with some pain, at least for global bond holders.

Beijing has made it clear that its priority is protecting the thousands of Chinese people who have bought unfinished apartments, along with construction workers, suppliers and small investors.

 

 

Bond investors you have done your money. 

Hope some have at least learnt a lesson for any future dealings with China.

 

 

 

 

[Stardust]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:19 PM, palooka said:

Evergrande can't pay its debts. China is scrambling to contain the fallout (9news.com.au)

Global investors may 'take a hair cut'

The massive restructuring is going to come with some pain, at least for global bond holders.

Beijing has made it clear that its priority is protecting the thousands of Chinese people who have bought unfinished apartments, along with construction workers, suppliers and small investors.

 

 

Bond investors you have done your money. 

Hope some have at least learnt a lesson for any future dealings with China.

 

 

 

The whole gdp and fake economy of the failed ccp dictatorship regime is build on debts and fake numbers. It is just build up like this pyramid sceme scams and only worked with new debts and thats why they build speed train railways who nobody use and make billions of billions of minus every year and already have to pay now a trillion usd on debts on that. Thats why they build ghost towns just to make a scam and fake economy. The gold reserves of the biggest gold trader in China was fake all build on fake gold and come out after investors wanted to make inspections of the gold reserves. They have no transparency on their listed companies on the stock markets because all their numbers are fake and scam like everything from Xi ccp China.

[Poolie]

Hmmm. 250 up.

China's economy continued its recovery momentum in November despite downward pressure, with major indicators staying within a reasonable range, official data showed Wednesday.

Retail sales of consumer goods in November went up 3.9 percent year on year in November, while value-added industrial output increased 3.8 percent year on year last month, data from the National Bureau of Statistics showed.

Fixed-asset investment went up 5.2 percent year on year in the first 11 months of the year, with investment into high-tech industries accelerating, the data showed.

The country's surveyed urban unemployment rate stood at 5 percent in November, 0.2 percentage points lower than the same period last year.

"The resilience of development has been continuously enhanced and the economic operation is generally stable," the NBS said in a statement.

The world's second largest economy is faced with pressure from demand contraction, supply shocks and weakening expectations, according to the tone-setting Central Economic Work Conference concluded last week.

"Despite multiple pressures, the fundamentals of China's long-term economic development stood unchanged," said NBS spokesperson Fu Linghui at a press conference.

Wednesday's data showed that the "real sector" of the economy registered solid expansion. The value-added output for major companies in the manufacturing sector accelerated growth, while high-tech industries saw rapid growth.

The production of industrial robots jumped 27.9 percent year on year, while output of new energy vehicles surged 112 percent from a year ago.

"The real economy continued to strengthen and positive changes have gradually increased. However, we must also see that the international environment is becoming more complicated and severe, and the impact of COVID-19 at home is still lingering," Fu said.

China will continue implementing proactive fiscal policies and prudent monetary policies for steady economic progress next year, according to the key conference.

As macro policy adjustment intensifies, policies to ensure supply and price stability take effect and measures to expand domestic demand gain momentum, expectations from firms will maintain generally stable, Fu said.

Source: Xinhua   Editor: Chen Xiaoli

 

[Rain]

After all this.

I'm still at a quandary. 

Who are the true boogiemen? 

And why do they exist? 

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

After all this.

I'm still at a quandary. 

Who are the true boogiemen? 

And why do they exist? 

The clue: They wage a constant destabilization campaign around the world. They've been at war for all but 33 years since they came into existence. They helped the Nazis after WW2. It speaks for itself (in a language stolen from another combatant.)

If you need further clues just ask.

[Rain]

22 minutes ago, Poolie said:

The clue: They wage a constant destabilization campaign around the world. They've been at war for all but 33 years since they came into existence. They helped the Nazis after WW2. It speaks for itself (in a language stolen from another combatant.)

If you need further clues just ask.

Thanks for the attempted assistance, but my comments above were obviously rhetorical - a handful of us are quite aware of what is and what isn't.........and aren't swayed by the constant and invented distractions. 

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Thanks for the attempted assistance, but my comments above were obviously rhetorical - a handful of us are quite aware of what is and what isn't.........and aren't swayed by the constant and invented distractions. 

I was aware but didn't wish to pass up such a good chance to remind all the blind or biased. Hope you dont mind.

[ThailandRyan]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

Thanks for the attempted assistance, but my comments above were obviously rhetorical - a handful of us are quite aware of what is and what isn't.........and aren't swayed by the constant and invented distractions. 

How do you quantify the real estate slow collapse as an invented distraction or Evergrande, which is about to be piece milled apart and sold a distraction as well as the losses of billions as a distraction?

[AussieBob]

On 12/16/2021 at 7:40 PM, Poolie said:

Hmmm. 250 up.

China's economy continued its recovery momentum in November despite downward pressure, with major indicators staying within a reasonable range, official data showed Wednesday.

Retail sales of consumer goods in November went up 3.9 percent year on year in November, while value-added industrial output increased 3.8 percent year on year last month, data from the National Bureau of Statistics showed.

Fixed-asset investment went up 5.2 percent year on year in the first 11 months of the year, with investment into high-tech industries accelerating, the data showed.

The country's surveyed urban unemployment rate stood at 5 percent in November, 0.2 percentage points lower than the same period last year.

"The resilience of development has been continuously enhanced and the economic operation is generally stable," the NBS said in a statement.

The world's second largest economy is faced with pressure from demand contraction, supply shocks and weakening expectations, according to the tone-setting Central Economic Work Conference concluded last week.

"Despite multiple pressures, the fundamentals of China's long-term economic development stood unchanged," said NBS spokesperson Fu Linghui at a press conference.

Wednesday's data showed that the "real sector" of the economy registered solid expansion. The value-added output for major companies in the manufacturing sector accelerated growth, while high-tech industries saw rapid growth.

The production of industrial robots jumped 27.9 percent year on year, while output of new energy vehicles surged 112 percent from a year ago.

"The real economy continued to strengthen and positive changes have gradually increased. However, we must also see that the international environment is becoming more complicated and severe, and the impact of COVID-19 at home is still lingering," Fu said.

China will continue implementing proactive fiscal policies and prudent monetary policies for steady economic progress next year, according to the key conference.

As macro policy adjustment intensifies, policies to ensure supply and price stability take effect and measures to expand domestic demand gain momentum, expectations from firms will maintain generally stable, Fu said.

Source: Xinhua   Editor: Chen Xiaoli

Poolie - why are you always quoting the official spokespeople of the China Communist Party. 

We all know they are as reliable and honest as TAT when talking about next year's tourist numbers.

And they are both 'over' - they both had a great run, but they failed to do the right thing, and their inevitable decline started a long time ago. Covid has just highlighted and sped up what was already coming. 

[Rookiescot]

 

[Stardust]

On 12/14/2021 at 8:15 AM, ThailandRyan said:

The fallout has started to hit the country

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fd7cccaa4-743a-430e-8be4-d60e009029e9%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0YwwWQnTWykv0q0mmhlP4FS_cjF6GM3uHJDKOZ-zbjOy9phhnVN9T4guA&h=AT3uDurixk9p59Iot3VUaww9xU69leJF8-M0EFDKQ5CUEq53t4zJyT8mndrguRFCvFNNcmIxtMSqXUUk6DeFV6iItDCvqIJ__1FSmZHZGBCTXaankJUHaoIUz37oedM3DxIAI98L4DfA

Private equity groups are planning to cut their exposure to Chinese real estate as concerns mount over the health of the sector following the default last week of indebted developer Evergrande. Coller Capital, a London-based private equity specialist, said in a report on Monday that almost a third of groups with exposure to China would decrease their investments in the country’s real estate sector over the next three years. Not one investor said they planned to increase their investments. The report came days after Evergrande, the world’s most indebted property group, was downgraded to “restricted default” by rating agency Fitch. Investors have been trying to gauge how far the contagion from Evergrande’s default will spread after a number of rival developers missed offshore bond payments in recent months. The sector has come under heavy pressure in the past year after Beijing unveiled a “three red lines” policy to curb developer debt. “Potential defaults and liquidity problems of large developers have ignited concerns about a system-wide contagion affecting not just the property sector but the entire supply chain,” said Manishi Raychaudhuri, Hong Kong-based head of Asia-Pacific equity research at BNP Paribas Securities.

The Coller report also showed that more than a third of investors with exposure to Asia outside China planned to invest more heavily in other parts of the region. Recommended Evergrande Real Estate Group Evergrande bondholders settle in for lengthy restructuring process Signs that the Evergrande default would disrupt Chinese markets intensified on Monday, with the Hang Seng Mainland Properties index, which tracks 10 of China’s biggest developers, falling as much as 3.6 per cent. Shares in Shimao Group, one of China’s biggest developers, fell as much as 13.8 per cent, while Sunac China Holdings, another developer, dropped 7.9 per cent. Sunac came under scrutiny after a draft letter to a local government warned it was facing liquidity issues. Fantasia Holdings, a midsized developer whose shares resumed trading on Monday after a two-week suspension, fell as much as 9.4 per cent before clawing back losses to trade flat. Fantasia defaulted on a $206m bond in October.

The market sell-off contrast sharply with last week, when the initial reaction to news of Evergrande’s missed payment on bond coupons totalling $82.5m was tempered by signals that Beijing would offer policy support to the struggling sector. But investors were disappointed on Friday, after Chinese economic policymakers declared that “property is for living, not speculation”, repeating a mantra used to justify the restrictions on developer leverage.

A report what talks about that

 

[Stardust]

On 12/17/2021 at 7:38 AM, ThailandRyan said:

How do you quantify the real estate slow collapse as an invented distraction or Evergrande, which is about to be piece milled apart and sold a distraction as well as the losses of billions as a distraction?

Yes exactly and is seen already over months