Collapse of China

[Stardust]

  On 11/16/2021 at 9:28 AM, Stardust said:

And not by intent! It is a regulation. They had defaults and got for every default a 30 day period they pay or someone bail them out. If there is a default after the 30 day period again, then it is game over and it will goes into the proceedings of the bankruptcy and it is a cross default if some defaults payments were made in time. Thats a regulation not by intents! And for a good reason because to stop bankruptcy delays what would create more damage and more failed payments.

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It doesn't matter if others follow or join

https://marketresearchtelecast.com/chinese-real-estate-company-evergrande-goes-into-default/199409/

[PBS]

  On 11/16/2021 at 9:15 AM, Stardust said:

I see you not read about and why they go into the bankruptcy proceedings. Maybe read first about what the article is and about that they are bond holders and not received their payments. Also maybe read about bonds regulation and understand. Your points doesn't matter in any case you not understand the regulation. Any default will make a cross default and will end up in bankruptcy proceedings. Thats a regulation and not by choice! 

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If enacted, explain how would be enforced in PRC jurisdiction, sounds like posturing breast beating to me. Plus what benefit accrues to world markets - none?

Edited November 16, 2021 by PBS

[Stardust]

  On 11/16/2021 at 9:45 AM, PBS said:

If enacted, explain how would be enforced in PRC jurisdiction, sounds like posturing breast beating to me.

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Bonds are regulated and has nothing to do with the PRC ! You think it would be allowed to trade it in europe or USA if it would be so?! 

[PBS]

  On 11/16/2021 at 9:53 AM, Stardust said:

Bonds are regulated and has nothing to do with the PRC ! You think it would be allowed to trade it in europe or USA if it would be so?! 

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So exactly what impact will it have on PRC, if enacted, would it be the equivalent of a mosquito bite for an elephant? Will PRC government step in to minimise any negativity on the domestic market etc etc A quote...

institutional and other foreign investors will likely be more affected compared to domestic investors in China, analysts say.

So far all the analysts forecasting default, the end is nigh and so on have been incorrect, as I said let's wait to see how events unfold. One matter seems to be certain if PRC hurts financially, it will flow through to external markets, so less of the wishful thinking....

[ThailandRyan]

My daughter who is also my CPA and is a forensic Auditor for one of the big four firms made the decision with what was happening to pull all of our funds we had in Blackrok and park them in another fund.  Glad she did, as I just found this.  She told me what was happening and sent me links but I never followed up on reviewing them because I trust her judgement.  She keeps the Family trust moving along just fine as the trust accountant as well.

https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/blackrock-vanguard-shareholdings-in-evergrande-plummet-by-more-than-250m-20210928

BlackRock and Vanguard are among the largest shareholders in Evergrande that have posted hundreds of millions of dollars in paper losses following a more than 80% share price drop in the troubled Chinese property developer.

[Stardust]

  On 11/16/2021 at 10:14 AM, ThailandRyan said:

My daughter who is also my CPA and is a forensic Auditor for one of the big four firms made the decision with what was happening to pull all of our funds we had in Blackrok and park them in another fund.  Glad she did, as I just found this.  She told me what was happening and sent me links but I never followed up on reviewing them because I trust her judgement.  She keeps the Family trust moving along just fine as the trust accountant as well.

https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/blackrock-vanguard-shareholdings-in-evergrande-plummet-by-more-than-250m-20210928

BlackRock and Vanguard are among the largest shareholders in Evergrande that have posted hundreds of millions of dollars in paper losses following a more than 80% share price drop in the troubled Chinese property developer.

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Blackrock and citi bank are deep inside. Citi bank claimed received the payments but failed to give the official confirmation. They hoped to win more time and sombody bail out the evergrands defaults.

[Stardust]

  On 11/16/2021 at 10:05 AM, PBS said:

So exactly what impact will it have on PRC, if enacted, would it be the equivalent of a mosquito bite for an elephant? Will PRC government step in to minimise any negativity on the domestic market etc etc A quote...

institutional and other foreign investors will likely be more affected compared to domestic investors in China, analysts say.

So far all the analysts forecasting default, the end is nigh and so on have been incorrect, as I said let's wait to see how events unfold. One matter seems to be certain if PRC hurts financially, it will flow through to external markets, so less of the wishful thinking....

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Omg this are not forecasts any defaults it means they failed to pay the interests of the bonds. You should study first bond markets, regulations and what defaults mean. It has nothing to do with any forecasts and also the proceedings for a bankruptcy when the deadlines also defaulted has nothing to do with a forecast! This are regulations. Do you think you can trade in europe or usa under the laws kr juristification under pcr? It seams you really think that. Or do you think bonds regulations depends on them??? 

[Rookiescot]

  On 11/16/2021 at 10:05 AM, PBS said:

So exactly what impact will it have on PRC, if enacted, would it be the equivalent of a mosquito bite for an elephant? Will PRC government step in to minimise any negativity on the domestic market etc etc A quote...

institutional and other foreign investors will likely be more affected compared to domestic investors in China, analysts say.

So far all the analysts forecasting default, the end is nigh and so on have been incorrect, as I said let's wait to see how events unfold. One matter seems to be certain if PRC hurts financially, it will flow through to external markets, so less of the wishful thinking....

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Do you honestly think foreign investors are far more likely to suffer than the domestic Chinese investors and creditors? 

[PBS]

  On 11/16/2021 at 3:18 PM, Rookiescot said:

Do you honestly think foreign investors are far more likely to suffer than the domestic Chinese investors and creditors? 

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The article is talking to foreign bond holders. Concerning domestic buyers / investors, I understand it is still unknown if PRC rulers will step in or not to protect them, so no idea what the future holds for them.

Link below provides example coverage on pressure for PRC rulers to take action for the domestic market.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-11/china-evergrande-crisis-furious-property-investors-demand-government-action

Edited November 16, 2021 by PBS

[PBS]

  On 11/16/2021 at 1:52 PM, Stardust said:

this are not forecasts any defaults it means they failed to pay the interests of the bonds.

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Please provide credible links showing defaults by Evergrande to pay interest on the bonds.

[Stardust]

  On 11/16/2021 at 10:49 PM, PBS said:

Please provide credible links showing defaults by Evergrande to pay interest on the bonds.

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Sorry let me ask you can you read? I made a few links already! Did you ever read them? I am really wondering now.

[Chaimai]

  On 11/17/2021 at 2:09 AM, Stardust said:

Sorry let me ask you can you read? I made a few links already! Did you ever read them? I am really wondering now.

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Down tiger!  .....reading and comprehension are totally different skill sets.....

[Stardust]

  On 11/16/2021 at 1:47 PM, Stardust said:

Blackrock and citi bank are deep inside. Citi bank claimed received the payments but failed to give the official confirmation. They hoped to win more time and sombody bail out the evergrands defaults.

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https://apnews.com/press-release/pr-newswire/business-china-evergrande-group-china-36dc3f16fe95c154a768d071345cdb77 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evergrande-officially-defaulted-dmsa-preparing-161200818.html

And many more! 

[Stardust]

  On 11/17/2021 at 2:22 AM, Chaimai said:

Down tiger!  .....reading and comprehension are totally different skill sets.....

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Ok understand now. I am also wondering how he thinks the bond market is regulated, he even thinks the trading in europe is regulated by China and juristfication is in China and China decide the bond regulations including when the regulation for the proceedings in bankruptcy. I asked you think it would be allowed then to trade them in europe or the usa? 

[PBS]

  On 11/17/2021 at 2:09 AM, Stardust said:

Sorry let me ask you can you read? I made a few links already! Did you ever read them? I am really wondering now.

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Yes, I've read. As I comprehend Evergrande has pushed the envelope to the last moment on a number of occasions, but, to date, not actually defaulted.

"China Evergrande Group has been lurching from one debt deadline to another and has so far managed to avoid default"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-12/the-biz-evergrande-avoids-default-again/100614948

If you believe credible media is incorrectly reporting, I repeat, demonstrate where Evergrande has actually legally defaulted. In the meantime, as previously requested, how about backing off your arrogant assumptions and insulting personal commentary.

[Stardust]

  On 11/17/2021 at 5:00 AM, PBS said:

Yes, I've read. As I comprehend Evergrande has pushed the envelope to the last moment on a number of occasions, but, to date, not actually defaulted.

"China Evergrande Group has been lurching from one debt deadline to another and has so far managed to avoid default"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-12/the-biz-evergrande-avoids-default-again/100614948

If you believe credible media is incorrectly reporting, I repeat, demonstrate where Evergrande has actually legally defaulted. In the meantime, as previously requested, how about backing off your arrogant assumptions and insulting personal commentary.

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You really don't get it! It is even in the Bangkok Post and the German side was already in contact with the central banks. OMG sure tried the investors to win time but this doesn't matter!

https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/2217343/china-us-woes-will-spell-thai-gloom

[Stardust]

  On 11/17/2021 at 5:00 AM, PBS said:

Yes, I've read. As I comprehend Evergrande has pushed the envelope to the last moment on a number of occasions, but, to date, not actually defaulted.

"China Evergrande Group has been lurching from one debt deadline to another and has so far managed to avoid default"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-12/the-biz-evergrande-avoids-default-again/100614948

If you believe credible media is incorrectly reporting, I repeat, demonstrate where Evergrande has actually legally defaulted. In the meantime, as previously requested, how about backing off your arrogant assumptions and insulting personal commentary.

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It is officially and reported in Germany! central bank usa is already informed, too! And it will be soon also in the english speaking media 

[Stardust]

  On 11/17/2021 at 5:00 AM, PBS said:

Yes, I've read. As I comprehend Evergrande has pushed the envelope to the last moment on a number of occasions, but, to date, not actually defaulted.

"China Evergrande Group has been lurching from one debt deadline to another and has so far managed to avoid default"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-12/the-biz-evergrande-avoids-default-again/100614948

If you believe credible media is incorrectly reporting, I repeat, demonstrate where Evergrande has actually legally defaulted. In the meantime, as previously requested, how about backing off your arrogant assumptions and insulting personal commentary.

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I sent you many links and in the reports also who and which group made the official default and with link of the investor group. I guess you have really problems with reading and understanding what they write! Official press release of the german bondholder dmsa !

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evergrande-officially-defaulted-dmsa-preparing-161200818.html

THIS IS OFFICIAL I HOPE YOU CAN READ IT?

[Stardust]

  On 11/18/2021 at 4:35 AM, Stardust said:

I sent you many links and in the reports also who and which group made the official default and with link of the investor group. I guess you have really problems with reading and understanding what they write! Official press release of the german bondholder dmsa !

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evergrande-officially-defaulted-dmsa-preparing-161200818.html

THIS IS OFFICIAL I HOPE YOU CAN READ IT?

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It doesnt matter if sombody else received a lastminute payment because the bonds are regulated by cross default regulation.

[Stardust]

  On 11/17/2021 at 5:00 AM, PBS said:

Yes, I've read. As I comprehend Evergrande has pushed the envelope to the last moment on a number of occasions, but, to date, not actually defaulted.

"China Evergrande Group has been lurching from one debt deadline to another and has so far managed to avoid default"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-12/the-biz-evergrande-avoids-default-again/100614948

If you believe credible media is incorrectly reporting, I repeat, demonstrate where Evergrande has actually legally defaulted. In the meantime, as previously requested, how about backing off your arrogant assumptions and insulting personal commentary.

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If you not understand bonds regulation any discussion make no sense I tried to explain you many times now I give up because I see you still don't understand the bond regulations and trade regulations you come again with the same

It doesn't matter if they make to some other bondholder last minute payments!!!!! Because they are regulated with cross default regulations!!!

Edited November 18, 2021 by Smithydog
Excess caps removed to align with Forum Guidelines

[Stardust]

  On 11/18/2021 at 4:43 AM, Stardust said:

If you not understand bonds regulation any discussion make no sense I tried to explain you many times now I give up because I see you still don't understand the bond regulations and trade regulations you come again with the same

It doesn't matter if they make to some other bondholder last minute payments!!!!! Because they are regulated with cross default regulations!!!

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By the way the proceedings will need time but it is already on the way for approval. Also the other bondholder will be informed and can join the proceedings.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Smithydog
Excess caps removed to align with edited quote from original Post

[LoongFred]

  On 11/18/2021 at 4:51 AM, Stardust said:

By the way the proceedings will need time but it is already on the way for approval. Also the other bondholder will be informed and can join the proceedings.

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What are you taking about? This is a forum that everyone can read.

[PBS]

  On 11/18/2021 at 4:43 AM, Stardust said:

If you not understand bonds regulation any discussion make no sense I tried to explain you many times now I give up because I see you still don't understand the bond regulations and trade regulations you come again with the same

It doesn't matter if they make to some other bondholder last minute payments!!!!! Because they are regulated with cross default regulations!!!

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Personally I prefer to gain my info from credible media outlet/s, refer below, not some anonymous person on a social media platform. Despite all the noise you make there is not one confirmation that Evergrande has been subjected to a default action.

https://www.reuters.com/business/investors-await-evergrandes-overdue-148-mln-payment-amid-contagion-fears-2021-11-09/

"In the process of approval" means so far  legal action has not been finalised. In other words, put up or shut up as so far you have not provided any proof legal default action has actually been finalised.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Smithydog
Excess caps removed from quote to align with edited Original Post

[ThailandRyan]

  On 11/18/2021 at 6:43 AM, PBS said:

Personally I prefer to gain my info from credible media outlet/s, refer below, not some anonymous person on a social media platform. Despite all the noise you make there is not one confirmation that Evergrande has been subjected to a default action.

https://www.reuters.com/business/investors-await-evergrandes-overdue-148-mln-payment-amid-contagion-fears-2021-11-09/

In other words, put up or shut up as so far you have not provided any proof legal default action has actually been taken.

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Read a little bit and you will see what the man is saying

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evergrande-officially-defaulted-dmsa-preparing-161200818.html

BERLIN, Nov. 10, 2021 /CNW/ -- China Evergrande Group today again defaulted on interest payments to international investors. DMSA itself is invested in these bonds and has not received any interest payments until today's end of the grace period. Now DMSA is preparing bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande and calls on all bond investors to join it.

China Evergrande Group, the second largest real estate developer in China, defaulted on interest payments on two bonds back in September, with the 30-day grace period still ending in October. However, shortly before the end of the grace period, the public was misled by rumors about alleged interest payments. The international media also took the rumors for granted.

Only the DMSA - Deutsche Marktscreening Agentur (German Market Screening Agency) already recognized the default at that time and proved in a study that the bankruptcy of Evergrande, the world's most indebted corporation, could ultimately lead to a "Great Reset", i.e. the final meltdown of the global financial system.

[Stardust]

  On 11/18/2021 at 6:43 AM, PBS said:

Personally I prefer to gain my info from credible media outlet/s, refer below, not some anonymous person on a social media platform. Despite all the noise you make there is not one confirmation that Evergrande has been subjected to a default action.

https://www.reuters.com/business/investors-await-evergrandes-overdue-148-mln-payment-amid-contagion-fears-2021-11-09/

In other words, put up or shut up as so far you have not provided any proof legal default action has actually been taken.

BTW: All Caps messaging is contrary to forum etiquette and again underlines your ignoring of forum rules.

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Then quote me all the time for the same and if you think dmsa press release is not something official it is your problem. If it would be not official no other press including Bangkok post would write about it. And if you not understand the bond regulation and that dmsa is a official public bond holder of Evergrande it is also up to you. I tried to explain it to you in a normal way but you came always again with the same and it showed that you not understand the bond market, trading or regulations. And if you need it more official dmsa has a website and all company registration numbers etc everything to understand and proof it. But you didn't understood. DMSA is very well known and a public bond holder! I guess you not understand that, too. As you not understand proceeding time in the bankruptcy and approval time. The proceedings needs a while til you get your official bankruptcy but to understand it better no bond holder would go into the proceedings without a official default!