Collapse of China

[Stardust]

Loss records on tech companies in China

 

 

[Stardust]

On 10/26/2021 at 12:56 PM, PBS said:

Did you read the link I provided as an example of Chinese technology innovation? Can you prove the PRC electric car innovator, CRRC,  is in fact sourcing all it's components from Germany for electrical car manufacture, as I for one do not believe you. Reason...

Tesla, source batteries from PRC One example of battery supply from PRC company, there are others...

https://www.scmp.com/business/banking-finance/article/3139085/chinas-largest-battery-maker-catl-extends-agreement

I guess you're aware CRRC has also been active in the German market by way of acquisition in the locomotive market.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transportation/Chinese-train-maker-CRRC-to-take-over-German-factory
 

IMO you are dismissing trends of technology development in PRC. PRC is now leading the US with IP Patents, alongside massive efforts to move from development to production. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-patents-idUSKCN2AU0TM

Buy in or take over a company in Germany doesn't mean it is developped by Chinese , I answered that already. Patents that are developped from these companies or engeneering units are also not developed by Chinese! All of that I answred already and now you go in circles!

[palooka]

2 hours ago, gummy said:

Oh I don't know they have way further to go to owe as much as some in the US

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/charting-america-united-states-debt/

$27 trillion is US total debt, US been broke for years, but China is trying to catch up with $5 trillion in ONE industry alone.

 

[Stardust]

14 hours ago, Poolie said:

Its the American chamber of Commerce report.

That is surly not the opinion of the most companies who produce in China and not if the biggest multinational companies around the world like from Japan, South Korea and Europe. This reflects them not and the numbers are different. By the way Ikea is not American. To pick out some of it but not mention companies like Samsung, Toshiba etc shows it very clear.

[Stardust]

6 minutes ago, Stardust said:

That is surly not the opinion of the most companies who produce in China and not if the biggest multinational companies around the world like from Japan, South Korea and Europe. This reflects them not and the numbers are different. By the way Ikea is not American. To pick out some of it but not mention companies like Samsung, Toshiba etc shows it very clear.

And to make it mor clear markets has nothing to do to pull out companies and supply chains from China but will affect the unemployment in China and later also the market. One point that China is a development country is also because the gross net income is about 600 usd and many live on salary of 150 to 250 usd a month. What China has is a huge population and sure companies like Ikea get a profit of that but dont think it is for all industries and huge populatiin you also can find in India ir south east asia. Everything is already on debts in China with this low incomes on houses, cars. They will be busy in the future to pay back their loans and interests every month there will be no more buying power and thats for sure with that liw gross net income and debts, because it is simple math.

[PBS]

25 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Buy in or take over a company in Germany doesn't mean it is developped by Chinese. <SNIP>

Never made such a claim. For me, you come across as closed minded, all I was highlighting is PRC is changing so far as commercial activity. IP development etc, nothing stays the same. Even the fact PRC is now the world's No 1 for annual registered patents appears to have gone straight over your head for changes within PRC PRC universities are now appearing in top 50 global rankings, I bet twenty or so years that wasn't the case; as I said nothing stays the same forever...

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/china

Will PRC collapse  - no idea, would think no-one on the platform is informed enough to reasonably forecast other than posting some analyst opinion. e.g... (wow a whole .03 drop in GDP predicted as of 14/10/21).

CNBC tracked estimates for China’s full-year GDP from 13 major banks, 10 of which have cut their forecasts since August. The median prediction is growth of 8.2% this year, following the latest cuts. That’s down 0.3 percentage points from the prior median forecast.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/15/china-economy-gdp-forecasts-by-goldman-jpmorgan-citi-stanchart.html

On the other hand, as I posted previously, IMO, a collapse would create a great deal of regional and global pain for many economies. I for one hope any transitioning of PRC society is achieved in the coming years constructively for the people of PRC.

Moving along, I am remiss, let's stick to our agreement not to respond to each other - within the topic - bye

[Stardust]

7 minutes ago, PBS said:

Never made such a claim. For me, you come across as closed minded, all I was highlighting is PRC is changing so far as commercial activity. IP development etc, nothing stays the same. Even the fact PRC is now the world's No 1 for annual registered patents appears to have gone straight over your head for changes within PRC PRC universities are now appearing in top 50 global rankings, I bet twenty or so years that wasn't the case; as I said nothing stays the same forever...

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/china

Will PRC collapse  - no idea, would think no-one on the platform is informed enough to reasonably forecast other than posting some analyst opinion. e.g... (wow a whole .03 drop in GDP predicted as of 14/10/21).

CNBC tracked estimates for China’s full-year GDP from 13 major banks, 10 of which have cut their forecasts since August. The median prediction is growth of 8.2% this year, following the latest cuts. That’s down 0.3 percentage points from the prior median forecast.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/15/china-economy-gdp-forecasts-by-goldman-jpmorgan-citi-stanchart.html

On the other hand, as I posted previously, IMO, a collapse would create a great deal of regional and global pain for many economies. I for one hope any transitioning of PRC society is achieved in the coming years constructively for the people of PRC.

Moving along, I am remiss, let's stick to our agreement not to respond to each other - within the topic - bye

Ok then we can agree if see it not as a innovation. But for Chinas next future just take their gross net income and their debts plus the conflicts they create, plus their crackdowns and regulatiins on companies what will affect further more the pull out from China and will the already high unemployment in China increase. All important infos are out already.

[Convert54]

1 hour ago, PBS said:

As with other dictatorships, West has a great deal of interdependency - personally I do not believe PRC will be 'permitted' to collapse in free fall - too much chaos. 

I agree. While some may desire it if it were to do so the negative effect has been assessed to be global .

Most attention seems to be focused on the "how" of a solution rather than the "if".

 

[palooka]

Evergrande has reportedly made good on another payment, averting default once again (msn.com)

 

It's not clear where Evergrande is getting the money to pay these debts. But some media have suggested that company Chairman Xu Jiayin is being pressured to reach into his own pockets to keep the company afloat.

Earlier this week, Bloomberg reported that Chinese authorities have told Xu to use his personal wealth to pay the company's debts.

Local media in Hong Kong has also reported, citing information from a local land registry, that Xu is using a mansion in the city as collateral to secure bank loans.

Wondered where the money was coming from.

 

[Stardust]

10 hours ago, palooka said:

Evergrande has reportedly made good on another payment, averting default once again (msn.com)

It's not clear where Evergrande is getting the money to pay these debts. But some media have suggested that company Chairman Xu Jiayin is being pressured to reach into his own pockets to keep the company afloat.

Earlier this week, Bloomberg reported that Chinese authorities have told Xu to use his personal wealth to pay the company's debts.

Local media in Hong Kong has also reported, citing information from a local land registry, that Xu is using a mansion in the city as collateral to secure bank loans.

Wondered where the money was coming from.

Not only Evergrande there are much more companies who cannot pay back their debts

 

[AussieBob]

Interesting article:  https://qz.com/2072618/could-chinas-economy-collapse/

But I found one of the comments made at the end to be extremely on point:  "It’s taken a pandemic for many countries to wake up to just how powerful China is—and how far its decisions can shape our world."  

China is going into the future with the World closely watching now - they are no longer going to 'get away' with as much as they did in the past.  Has the CCP been too harsh in its attack on the industries and businesses that provide the economic growth of the past, or has the CCP acted in time to stop short a collapse that would cause massive economic and social problems.  I dont think either way will succeed.

Xi changed the rules so that he could become the CCP Leader for a third term, and most of his political opponents have been removed or replaced. He is on a 'hiding to nothing' and IMO he will either bring China crashing down trying to hand on to power, or he will become the CCP Dictator for life. I do hope it is the former and not the later.

[Stardust]

42 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Interesting article:  https://qz.com/2072618/could-chinas-economy-collapse/

But I found one of the comments made at the end to be extremely on point:  "It’s taken a pandemic for many countries to wake up to just how powerful China is—and how far its decisions can shape our world."  

China is going into the future with the World closely watching now - they are no longer going to 'get away' with as much as they did in the past.  Has the CCP been too harsh in its attack on the industries and businesses that provide the economic growth of the past, or has the CCP acted in time to stop short a collapse that would cause massive economic and social problems.  I dont think either way will succeed.

Xi changed the rules so that he could become the CCP Leader for a third term, and most of his political opponents have been removed or replaced. He is on a 'hiding to nothing' and IMO he will either bring China crashing down trying to hand on to power, or he will become the CCP Dictator for life. I do hope it is the former and not the later.

Who can trust gangster countries like China or North Korea. Just watch inside the country how their methods are

 

[gummy]

3 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Who can trust gangster countries like China or North Korea. Just watch inside the country how their methods are

I agree and those leaders who condone murder of innocent nurses whilst helping the injured in Wats should also be held accountable for their crimes.

[palooka]

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

Has the CCP been too harsh in its attack on the industries and businesses that provide the economic growth of the past, or has the CCP acted in time to stop short a collapse that would cause massive economic and social problems.  I dont think either way will succeed.

Think the "off the books debt" is what caught him out big time. Until they started the under handed borrowing he had a tight hold on the economy and it wasn't till he started reeling in a few big fish and clamped down on borrowing that he found out.  Too late now.

Interesting that he will not leave China now for anything. Bit worried maybe.

[Stardust]

2 hours ago, gummy said:

I agree and those leaders who condone murder of innocent nurses whilst helping the injured in Wats should also be held accountable for their crimes.

Yes I agree

[HiuMak]

On 10/29/2021 at 10:56 AM, PBS said:

Never made such a claim. For me, you come across as closed minded, all I was highlighting is PRC is changing so far as commercial activity. IP development etc, nothing stays the same. Even the fact PRC is now the world's No 1 for annual registered patents appears to have gone straight over your head for changes within PRC PRC universities are now appearing in top 50 global rankings, I bet twenty or so years that wasn't the case; as I said nothing stays the same forever...

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/china

Will PRC collapse  - no idea, would think no-one on the platform is informed enough to reasonably forecast other than posting some analyst opinion. e.g... (wow a whole .03 drop in GDP predicted as of 14/10/21).

CNBC tracked estimates for China’s full-year GDP from 13 major banks, 10 of which have cut their forecasts since August. The median prediction is growth of 8.2% this year, following the latest cuts. That’s down 0.3 percentage points from the prior median forecast.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/15/china-economy-gdp-forecasts-by-goldman-jpmorgan-citi-stanchart.html

On the other hand, as I posted previously, IMO, a collapse would create a great deal of regional and global pain for many economies. I for one hope any transitioning of PRC society is achieved in the coming years constructively for the people of PRC.

Moving along, I am remiss, let's stick to our agreement not to respond to each other - within the topic - bye

No point commenting. This thread is for extreme leftys. waste of time. just ignore 

[Stardust]

They already looking for the coming interest payments on the assets on the founders asstes

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-04/evergrande-bondholders-eye-founder-s-megayacht-planes-mansions

 

[Rookiescot]

12 hours ago, HiuMak said:

No point commenting. This thread is for extreme leftys. waste of time. just ignore 

What an odd comment.

Perhaps you could point us in the direction of a thread which is for extreme rightys?

[Poolie]

Considering that Evergrande, the company that started the thread for those who've forgotten, is still here, it appears that there's 'nothing to see here'..........

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Considering that Evergrande, the company that started the thread for those who've forgotten, is still here, it appears that there's 'nothing to see here'..........

Evergrande appears to have been meeting its payments because the board of directors have been using their personal assets to facilitate it.

No bad thing in my opinion and something the west might learn from. It still irritates me that western countries had to bail out our banks while the board continued to receive obscene bonuses.

Profit was private but loses were public. Damned disgrace in my opinion.

[gummy]

29 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Evergrande appears to have been meeting its payments because the board of directors have been using their personal assets to facilitate it.

No bad thing in my opinion and something the west might learn from. It still irritates me that western countries had to bail out our banks while the board continued to receive obscene bonuses.

Profit was private but loses were public. Damned disgrace in my opinion.

I like your post and as my very early ones suggested I called into doubt whether it would be the collapse of China at all rather than wishful thinking mainly by America who conveniently forgot that it was American companies greed in making profits that  sought  out cheap Chinese labour, even child labour at times, to make their profits and thus accelerate the Chinese economy.  Now America don't like the fact that soon the Chinese will be worlds biggest economy again  so hence the negativity  and prejudice. Its more like Karma really in my view and the Americans better get used to the fact that they will soon be the second ranked economic nation, possibly sometime this decade. 

[Stardust]

1 hour ago, Poolie said:

Considering that Evergrande, the company that started the thread for those who've forgotten, is still here, it appears that there's 'nothing to see here'..........

A good joke when struggling to pay the interests rates and suppliers and staff still not paid plus 305 billions on debts they cannot pay. You must be a comedian

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, gummy said:

I like your post and as my very early ones suggested I called into doubt whether it would be the collapse of China at all rather than wishful thinking mainly by America who conveniently forgot that it was American companies greed in making profits that  sought  out cheap Chinese labour, even child labour at times, to make their profits and thus accelerate the Chinese economy.  Now America don't like the fact that soon the Chinese will be worlds biggest economy again  so hence the negativity  and prejudice. Its more like Karma really in my view and the Americans better get used to the fact that they will soon be the second ranked economic nation, possibly sometime this decade. 

Collapse is probably to far a strong term to describe what might happen. Will the Chinese economy go through a correction at some point? Absolutely. 

The rate of Chinas development has never been seen before. But it comes with a huge risk of overheating. Lots of debt. Xi saw this coming and started to reign this in but I think its too late. I also believe he was unaware of just exactly how much domestic and foreign debt there actually is. Much of it is unrecorded. Both personal and corporate. This is the way China has always done business after all. Regional debt (again kept off the books) is also a massive issue.

So China probably will go into a recession at some point. The effects will be felt globally but Chinas banks and financial services are not yet integrated with the west in such a way which would cause a 2008 style meltdown. Some western companies will suffer because of their exposure but not many.

Inside China yeah there will be blood on the carpet. Many will lose money. The government will lose money. The economy will however reset and start to pick up again. It will be messy. Ordinary people will suffer the most as always. What that means politically is anyones guess.

However it may not actually be a bad thing. If the rate of growth is allowed to go on unabated then it becomes a bubble which when it collapses is catastrophic. At that point it becomes armageddon for the poor and lower class.

Better to do the correction now rather than later is what I'm saying I guess.

[Stardust]

Western tech companies fleeing from China 

 

[Stardust]

Another property group in debt trouble