Collapse of China

[palooka]

On 12/22/2021 at 4:06 PM, Stardust said:

 the EU sent already their representitive to Taiwan but the UK and Australia not and same with Aukus, the PM from Australia made only blah blah but no action and instead the Germand and French Navy is doing the job

Think you will find that Australia has regular RAAF flights in China Sea much to the disgust of the CCCP. Butterworth Air Base (Penang Malaysia) to  Guam.

Australian Navy sails through on a regular basis also and recently 1st November a vessel docked in Japan, there may be more but as this is military they are not always forthcoming with vessel movements.  Maybe Australia just gets on with it instead of making a big show and dance for publicity.

[PBS]

2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Do you really think that the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NAZIs) were extreme right wing.

It's off Topic, but should be answered. Definitions of political ideology change over time as is the case with today's Western society (e.g. Far right incorporating anti Islam / anti migrant ideology). Nazism, in context, is considered to be 'far right' - right of centre - as incorporates anti-Marxism, anti-Semitic, anti liberalism, nativist nationalism and all sectors of the economy controlled by the State by way of political dictatorship - fascism.

Unfortunately there is a trend to disclaim Nazism as 'far right', there are a numerous publications which refute the argument.

Edited December 24, 2021 by PBS

[AussieBob]

39 minutes ago, PBS said:

It's off Topic, but should be answered. Definitions of political ideology change over time as is the case with today's Western society (e.g. Far right incorporating anti Islam / anti migrant ideology). Nazism, in context, is considered to be 'far right' - right of centre - as incorporates anti-Marxism, anti-Semitic, anti liberalism, nativist nationalism and all sectors of the economy controlled by the State by way of political dictatorship - fascism.

Unfortunately there is a trend to disclaim Nazism as 'far right', there are a numerous publications which refute the argument.

China is the topic - are they communism? socialism? fascism? 

Read the quoted article on wikipedia that I provided. 

The essential difference between right wing and left wing is who controls all sectors of People's lives (Property, Production, Construction, Services, Laws, Freedoms and Rights). Under 'left wing' it is the State that controls all sectors and all decisions are centralised with very limited/nil rights and freedoms with the People.  Under 'right wing' the State only sets the rules and regulations and the People 'control' their lives through using their rights and freedoms to decide. 

Read the article - the creator of 'fascism' was Giovanni Gentile who was also a member of the Mussolini Government.  Giovanni was not right wing - he was left wing - and his ideal version of 'State Control' was different, but it did not involve many rights and freedoms for the People.  

[Stardust]

1 hour ago, palooka said:

Think you will find that Australia has regular RAAF flights in China Sea much to the disgust of the CCCP. Butterworth Air Base (Penang Malaysia) to  Guam.

Australian Navy sails through on a regular basis also and recently 1st November a vessel docked in Japan, there may be more but as this is military they are not always forthcoming with vessel movements.  Maybe Australia just gets on with it instead of making a big show and dance for publicity.

Good to hear and I hope so, too

[Stardust]

Good overview of the Bondmarkets in China and how everything is based on debts and will be downgraded by this facts (Financial times)

https://www.ft.com/content/6b96ecba-1534-4b94-b0b1-b18de668f938

 

 

[PBS]

 

 

3 hours ago, AussieBob said:

China is the topic - are they communism? socialism? fascism? <SNIP>

 

I was responding to the member's query below which has no relevance to his OP, ergo Off Topic.

 

Do you really think that the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NAZIs) were extreme right wing.

 

 

[oldschooler]

On 12/23/2021 at 9:11 AM, Stardust said:

First of all you not understand that the press or media is mostly not the same like the english speaking ones. The European view is quite different. And I can assure you the German Army knows exactly what they are doing and they every screw of Chinese warships and submarines. But Germans, French , Europeans don't like the style of the style of the UK or Aistralia always open their mouth and mostly only blah blah blah. Europeans were tired of the big mouth of the UK and happy that the Brexit is done. Germany and France have a different view and mentality and not talk to much. Germany will not talk and come first with theor warships and submarines and maybe talk later. And they are very well positioned in south east Asia I guess you have no glue how many French and Germans are in south east Asia and how many German Companies. Europe is really tired of the blah blah and the ones in south east Asia.

the same europe that ….invented fascism & communism …likes to follow dictators …likes to start wars….loves to follow unelected bureaucrats like mindless sheep…..imposes its laws on free countries….required the english speaking countries to liberate them from nazi / soviet slavery….. partners with same countries as NATO to stay (relatively) free…… after having a very bad ww2…..  btw there are no German military much outside well Germany, certainly none in East Asia….EU stupidly trying to “expand” into Ukraine, provoking Russia….and childishly seeking to “punish” UK, a sovereign world power, for Brexit……that Europe, right ?

 

 

[oldschooler]

On 12/22/2021 at 4:06 PM, Stardust said:

The EU is happy the uk left and many companies from the uk put their productions and many financial companies came to Frankfurt and Paris. So it was a big win for the EU. And the EU sent already their representitive to Taiwan but the UK and Australia not and same with Aukus, the PM from Australia made only blah blah but no action and instead the Germand and French Navy is doing the job

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/german-warship-docks-at-changi-naval-base-in-first-regional-deployment-in-19-years

city of london lost 8k jobs after Brexit ….and gained 200k jobs…. UK has third highest number of world start ups after USA and China…and far higher tech investment than EU……companies moved around EU / UK all the time before and after Brexit….hundreds of reasons… guess where Toyota are building their new European Electic Vehicle Factory ? yep, UK …..EU is NOT a country just a failed Trade Federation…EU certainly not “happy” that UK left …..UK & AUS will be there to actually fight for Taiwan …..EU has not a single soldier but will no doubt send China a strong letter and talk about sanctions..

[oldschooler]

8 hours ago, AussieBob said:

China is the topic - are they communism? socialism? fascism? 

Read the quoted article on wikipedia that I provided. 

The essential difference between right wing and left wing is who controls all sectors of People's lives (Property, Production, Construction, Services, Laws, Freedoms and Rights). Under 'left wing' it is the State that controls all sectors and all decisions are centralised with very limited/nil rights and freedoms with the People.  Under 'right wing' the State only sets the rules and regulations and the People 'control' their lives through using their rights and freedoms to decide. 

Read the article - the creator of 'fascism' was Giovanni Gentile who was also a member of the Mussolini Government.  Giovanni was not right wing - he was left wing - and his ideal version of 'State Control' was different, but it did not involve many rights and freedoms for the People.  

clearly there was little difference in state cult control between nazi germany and soviet russia.

all elements of fascism and communism came full circle there to merge into a crushing totalitarianism.

although nazism permitted open wealth & business enterprise, did not micro manage factory and farm production, did not pretend classlessness, unlike communism, must be other differences…..

[oldschooler]

CCP China is Nationalistic & Authoritarian with superficial “Communism” a device to wield / maintain Power.

China has an Emperor, Huge Private Sector, with CCP (not State) operating / owning/ controlling Businesses.

Orwellian Population Control through Social Media, Internet Surveillance, Digital, Social Credit.

[Stardust]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

city of london lost 8k jobs after Brexit ….and gained 200k jobs…. UK has third highest number of world start ups after USA and China…and far higher tech investment than EU……companies moved around EU / UK all the time before and after Brexit….hundreds of reasons… guess where Toyota are building their new European Electic Vehicle Factory ? yep, UK …..EU is NOT a country just a failed Trade Federation…EU certainly not “happy” that UK left …..UK & AUS will be there to actually fight for Taiwan …..EU has not a single soldier but will no doubt send China a strong letter and talk about sanctions..

Compare the gdp of Germany to the uk and the biggest car producer worldwide is in Germany not the uk. 

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-94-trillion-world-economy-in-one-chart/

 

[Fester]

15 hours ago, palooka said:

Think you will find that Australia has regular RAAF flights in China Sea much to the disgust of the CCCP. Butterworth Air Base (Penang Malaysia) to  Guam.

Australian Navy sails through on a regular basis also and recently 1st November a vessel docked in Japan, there may be more but as this is military they are not always forthcoming with vessel movements.  Maybe Australia just gets on with it instead of making a big show and dance for publicity.

Butterworth to Guam track is far from China, about 1000km CPA.

Relax, Merry Christmas everyone.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Fester

[palooka]

6 hours ago, Fester said:

Butterworth to Guam track is far from China, about 1000km CPA.

Relax, Merry Christmas everyone.

Yes right over the Spratley Islands and with a some minor navigational errors over some of the reclaimed islands and new bases that China claim to be theirs, 1,000kms from China.

[AussieBob]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:38 AM, palooka said:

Think you will find that Australia has regular RAAF flights in China Sea much to the disgust of the CCCP. Butterworth Air Base (Penang Malaysia) to  Guam.

Australian Navy sails through on a regular basis also and recently 1st November a vessel docked in Japan, there may be more but as this is military they are not always forthcoming with vessel movements.  Maybe Australia just gets on with it instead of making a big show and dance for publicity.

Correct - with the full support of USA UK France Germany etc. (and guidance). There are many things that have been going on in the Australian 'Defence System' for decades that the public does not hear or want to hear or will ever hear about. The 'threat' has always been mainly about China - meaning that Defence forces does not sit waiting for someone to attack - they plan ahead - decades ahead - WW2 taught them all that.  We no longer wait for them to invade Poland than react - we plan ahead and get ready for if/when they invade Poland. You should think of Australia as the 'front line' in SEAsia - and we aint alone.  So many things - but just one that people know about (but not all) - why do you think Australia need all those nuclear submarines.  No - we will never know all the details - very very few do - because if we know then they know.  

[AussieBob]

13 hours ago, oldschooler said:

clearly there was little difference in state cult control between nazi germany and soviet russia.

all elements of fascism and communism came full circle there to merge into a crushing totalitarianism.

although nazism permitted open wealth & business enterprise, did not micro manage factory and farm production, did not pretend classlessness, unlike communism, must be other differences…..

Yes mate - and they are all the same - Centralised State Control over the People.  China is one of them. Some people in the 'west' want to become like them because they have no idea. 

Many good things will come from this Covid pandemic - one will (hopefully) be, that we the People will learn more about why we the People must never easily allow the State to control all aspects of the People's lives.  The more centralised the People allows power and control - the more stupid and corrupted it becomes - history has proven that over and over again - Kings, Queens, Caesars, Dictators, Committees, etc etc etc. The solution is not to change who has the power and control, it is not to allow centralised concentrated power and control.  That is what Democracy is - spreading the power and control across as many people as possible.   

Democracy clearly aint the best system - benevolent Kings/Queens is - but human nature shows that humans are corruptible and want things other people have. The bulldust Star Trek like utopian fantasy society that 'base level' left-wingers (eg. Uni students) think can be achieved through centralised control and decision making, does not and never will last. There will always be Stalins, and Xis, and Hitlers, and Amins, and Pol Pot, and Kim, and Hussain, and Mao - they take over that centralised control systems that people like Marx/Lenin thought was the solution, and then the People always suffer.

[AussieBob]

With regards to Xi Jinping - for those who do not know.  Xi has taken over the Chinese system of Government far more than Mao ever did.  He abolished term limits for the China President in 2018.  On 11 November 2021, the CCP voted unanimously and declared Xi's ideology the "essence of Chinese culture".  That was the 3rd resolution of the 'nature' of the CCP ever made.  The first resolution in 1945 gave Mao total power and control for life.  This latest resolution gives Xi more power and control than MAO had, and IMO he intends to take China back to what it was before Mao started his 'cultural evolution' in 1960s (2nd resolution) under which his family was 'purged' to the remote Nth East. 

The question I and many others have, is what does Xi intend to do. Is he going to take China back towards being an 'isolated and secure' country - one that built the wall to keep others out. Or does he want to expand China into the world and do things like 'take control' of SEAsia, thus forming a 'bloc' of countries aligned to China for geopolitical reasons. Is the move by Xi that caused the property collapse part of a plan to purge corruption and collapse parts of the economy built upon foreign debt and trade, for purposes of isolation. Or is Xi going to completely purge all forms of 'western capitalism' (get rid of rich entrepreneurs) in favour of centralised control, for the purposes of driving economic and political control over SEAsia. Or what else. 

The China economy is going to collapse in all probability - the issue is how bad will it be.  But the next question is why did Xi do it - he obviously knew this would happen - you dont get to where he is by being stupid.  He has positioned himself as the ultimate in China - and the first 'big' thing he did was to collapse the fake real estate bubble - what is he planning?

If it is expansion, then the world is in big trouble - Covid will seem like a miserable cold and rainy weekend. But maybe he is going back to the future - and will take China back to what it was before Mao started the cultural evolution in the 1960s that directly lead to the 'western influence' entering after his death in the late 1970s. Does Xi and those who gave him ultimate power and control want to go back to being an isolationist country under the rule of a centralised 'dynasty' - it worked for almost 4000 years.

[oldschooler]

33 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Yes mate - and they are all the same - Centralised State Control over the People.  China is one of them. Some people in the 'west' want to become like them because they have no idea. 

Many good things will come from this Covid pandemic - one will (hopefully) be, that we the People will learn more about why we the People must never easily allow the State to control all aspects of the People's lives.  The more centralised the People allows power and control - the more stupid and corrupted it becomes - history has proven that over and over again - Kings, Queens, Caesars, Dictators, Committees, etc etc etc. The solution is not to change who has the power and control, it is not to allow centralised concentrated power and control.  That is what Democracy is - spreading the power and control across as many people as possible.   

Democracy clearly aint the best system - benevolent Kings/Queens is - but human nature shows that humans are corruptible and want things other people have. The bulldust Star Trek like utopian fantasy society that 'base level' left-wingers (eg. Uni students) think can be achieved through centralised control and decision making, does not and never will last. There will always be Stalins, and Xis, and Hitlers, and Amins, and Pol Pot, and Kim, and Hussain, and Mao - they take over that centralised control systems that people like Marx/Lenin thought was the solution, and then the People always suffer.

constitutional monarchy the “least worse” govt. for UK / AUS / CAN / NZ. as mature democracies & advanced english- speaking civilization. rep. parliament governs & monarchy provides continuous incorruptible traditional symbolic head of state role. we dont want the only real alternative of “ Republic”.as evidenced by various “ no” votes ! our system just doesnt work elsewhere as immature people / govt. (like here).
 

world & human problem are our Leaders. single bad Absolute Leader or Dynasty will and has WRECKED every large country. no wonder the Ancient Euro Civilizations ( Minoans, Greeks, initially Romans) Wisely Rejected Dictators. UK escaped that around 1650. Anarchy recognizes the Leader problem and works on a small scale & within a state govt system providing basic services. 

[Thomazz59]

I agree with most of your opinions with the exception of Chinese expansion. Allthough the PLA has the military hardware to take on the western powers in the region, do the have the heart? I retired as a Master Sargent / E-7 in the USAF. I receive fair compensationfor my service in the form of a pension, affordable healthcare, low interest interest loans, preferential hiring and a free burial to name a few. Do the Chinese do the same for their military? Derived from my readings on this topic posted in vaarious website, this is not the case.

So why would they lay down their lives Xi and his philosophy?? 

[Stardust]

16 hours ago, oldschooler said:

the same europe that ….invented fascism & communism …likes to follow dictators …likes to start wars….loves to follow unelected bureaucrats like mindless sheep…..imposes its laws on free countries….required the english speaking countries to liberate them from nazi / soviet slavery….. partners with same countries as NATO to stay (relatively) free…… after having a very bad ww2…..  btw there are no German military much outside well Germany, certainly none in East Asia….EU stupidly trying to “expand” into Ukraine, provoking Russia….and childishly seeking to “punish” UK, a sovereign world power, for Brexit……that Europe, right ?

Wrong again submarine, waships are in the south China Sea and alliances with Japan! Wrong again! And they are also in the Indo pacific withe french. German Navy has a base in Djibouti and patrols from their also in Asia!!!

Wrong again like your former comment about the brexit just opinions without facts and sources. Sorry knowung is something else than believing and opinions

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/german-warship-docks-at-changi-naval-base-in-first-regional-deployment-in-19-years

 

[AussieBob]

4 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

constitutional monarchy the “least worse” govt. for UK / AUS / CAN / NZ. as mature democracies & advanced english- speaking civilization. rep. parliament governs & monarchy provides continuous incorruptible traditional symbolic head of state role. we dont want the only real alternative of “ Republic”.as evidenced by various “ no” votes ! our system just doesnt work elsewhere as immature people / govt. (like here).
 

world & human problem are our Leaders. single bad Absolute Leader or Dynasty will and has WRECKED every large country. no wonder the Ancient Euro Civilizations ( Minoans, Greeks, initially Romans) Wisely Rejected Dictators. UK escaped that around 1650. Anarchy recognizes the Leader problem and works on a small scale & within a state govt system providing basic services. 

Very true.  Trying to impose 'Democracy' on the World after WW2 in countries where the People were not 'ready' for it, has caused far more problems than it solved - it was just yet another form of control and power that could be corrupted.   

China has had by far the best form of Government - it is the only surviving ancient civilisation. The Incan,  Aztec, Roman, Persian, Ancient Greek, Mayan and Egyptian - all gone. 

 

[oldschooler]

10 hours ago, Stardust said:

Compare the gdp of Germany to the uk and the biggest car producer worldwide is in Germany not the uk. 

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-94-trillion-world-economy-in-one-chart/

UK sensibly ditched Socialism and Basic Industries forty years ago. UK decided not to subsidize or compete with Asia in mass produced Steel, Ships, Cars, Coal etc. so concentrated on High Value Niches with Limited Competition. All Formula One Racing Cars built in SE England.Germany cannot build these… or Nuclear Submarines, for example. UK Financial / Shipping / Insurance/ Banking Services unmatched in size, importance and diversity outside USA. EU stuck in the failed Past with Socialism, Protectionism, Restrictions & Mass Production. New Soviet Union…….EUSSR.

 

[oldschooler]

5 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Very true.  Trying to impose 'Democracy' on the World after WW2 in countries where the People were not 'ready' for it, has caused far more problems than it solved - it was just yet another form of control and power that could be corrupted.   

China has had by far the best form of Government - it is the only surviving ancient civilisation. The Incan,  Aztec, Roman, Persian, Ancient Greek, Mayan and Egyptian - all gone. 

yes. adding Mesopotamia- Indus- Minoan Great Ancient Civilizations. however one Leader (Emperor) screwed them big time. decided China was Perfect around 1442 and prohibited all outside contact & change…. opened way for five hundred years of western world domination. Japan same until forced to Open 1865.

[AussieBob]

8 minutes ago, Thomazz59 said:

I agree with most of your opinions with the exception of Chinese expansion. Although the PLA has the military hardware to take on the western powers in the region, do the have the heart? I retired as a Master Sargent / E-7 in the USAF. I receive fair compensation for my service in the form of a pension, affordable healthcare, low interest interest loans, preferential hiring and a free burial to name a few. Do the Chinese do the same for their military? Derived from my readings on this topic posted in various website, this is not the case.

So why would they lay down their lives Xi and his philosophy?? 

IMO if it came to outright war, and if USA/Allies were prepared to inflict massive losses (on both sides including civilian), then China would not last 3-4 months. As you would know the US 'war machine' is far advanced over all the others combined, and their military troop 'experience' is only rivalled by that in Russia.  Chinese 'war games' are BS as you would know - Afghanistan, Iraq, etc were real - the US military is by far the best equipped and the most experienced at war.  But as they have learned and grown, the political 'masters' also have learned that winning and controlling aint the same thing - China can never be 'occupied' - it would be a 'pyrrhic victory' - and they know that. 

I think (and hope) that Xi will be going back to the future. But what will happen after the China economy crashes - things can change quickly and Xi may have to 'change course'.  Doing what the west did to Japan forced them to 'take action' - that is also a lesson they have learned. IMO Nth Korea is the immediate problem if Xi 'walks away' - how will they react? 

 

[oldschooler]

25 minutes ago, Thomazz59 said:

I agree with most of your opinions with the exception of Chinese expansion. Allthough the PLA has the military hardware to take on the western powers in the region, do the have the heart? I retired as a Master Sargent / E-7 in the USAF. I receive fair compensationfor my service in the form of a pension, affordable healthcare, low interest interest loans, preferential hiring and a free burial to name a few. Do the Chinese do the same for their military? Derived from my readings on this topic posted in vaarious website, this is not the case.

So why would they lay down their lives Xi and his philosophy?? 

they would . from collective herd mentality. specialize in human wave infantry attacks. suicidal in Korean War and trebly so now with current miltech. china hopeless militarily. US subs & stealth bombers would wreck their forces in days. 

[Stardust]

22 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

UK sensibly ditched Socialism and Basic Industries forty years ago. UK decided not to subsidize or compete with Asia in mass produced Steel, Ships, Cars, Coal etc. so concentrated on High Value Niches with Limited Competition. All Formula One Racing Cars built in SE England.Germany cannot build these… or Nuclear Submarines, for example. UK Financial / Shipping / Insurance/ Banking Services unmatched in size, importance and diversity outside USA. EU stuck in the failed Past with Socialism, Protectionism, Restrictions & Mass Production. New Soviet Union…….EUSSR.

All German submarine must be all nuclear capable inclusive their airforces thats a contract between Nato, USA and France! Wrong again all is not by facts or knowing just by believing same like your claims there no German Army in Asia/ south east Asia

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/german-warship-docks-at-changi-naval-base-in-first-regional-deployment-in-19-years

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-submarines-will-have-second-strike-nuclear-capability/

So all your claims about Germany all wrong you are just writing your own fantasies, believings and opinions