Collapse of China

[Stardust]

Now it makes sense why they told their citizen to store food at home and why Xi no more traveled abroad and not participate in any meetings. They knew the numbers and everything will collapse and they knew the real situation of evergrande and how much money is envolved and therefore impissible to bail out. 

[Stardust]

On 11/9/2021 at 5:37 PM, gummy said:

In other words all those Americans better be careful what they are gleefully are wishing, it will bite them in the bum given their own massive debts as  this demonstrates

The Federal Reserve warned that fragility in China’s commercial real-estate sector could spread to the U.S

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-09/fed-flags-china-concerns-as-selloff-spreads-evergrande-update

Yes blackrock can be hit badly 

[Stardust]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So they lied about making the interest payments?

Wow.

Cross default it is called. Bonds have rules and if one defaults all the other ones, too. If they only be able to pay 2 but not the other ones you have a cross default because the others will be in the process of bankruptcy.

[Stardust]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So they lied about making the interest payments?

Wow.

A cross default happened

https://netherlandsnewslive.com/evergrande-defaults-bankruptcy-proceedings-initiated/280148/

 

[AussieBob]

2 hours ago, Stardust said:

A cross default happened

https://netherlandsnewslive.com/evergrande-defaults-bankruptcy-proceedings-initiated/280148/

It was bound to happen - and it is only the beginning IMO. But as the great man said (sort of): 'is it the beginning of the end, or the end of the beginning?'   Either way it is beginning.   China will have to step up and help them out, or this will continue across to other companies and the Chinese banks.  That will inevitably lead to a decline in the 'fake' China economic growth that was built on the fake property developments and construction projects. Chinese companies will then be blocked from obtaining international finance/bonds, which will also slow the fake economic growth China has 'manipulated' for decades.  As the great lady said: 'the problem with socialism is that they always eventually run out of other people's money'.  

[ThailandRyan]

6 hours ago, Stardust said:

EVERGRANDE OFFICIALLY DEFAULTS AND BANKRUPTCY

https://apnews.com/press-release/pr-newswire/business-china-evergrande-group-china-36dc3f16fe95c154a768d071345cdb77

It was only a matter of time until the house of cards eventually collapsed.  You can only rob Peter to pay Paul and then play shell games for so long with the eggs in the basket.  I liken this to the egg toss game, this time the folks were far apart and the egg finally broke.....

from the linked article posted by @Stardust

"China Evergrande Group, the second largest real estate developer in China, defaulted on interest payments on two bonds back in September, with the 30-day grace period still ending in October. However, shortly before the end of the grace period, the public was misled by rumors about alleged interest payments. The international media also took the rumors for granted. Only the DMSA - Deutsche Marktscreening Agentur (German Market Screening Agency) already recognized the default at that time and proved in a study that the bankruptcy of Evergrande, the world’s most indebted corporation, could ultimately lead to a “Great Reset”, i.e. the final meltdown of the global financial system."

Edited November 11, 2021 by ThailandRyan

[Stardust]

13 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

It was only a matter of time until the house of cards eventually collapsed.  You can only rob Peter to pay Paul and then play shell games for so long with the eggs in the basket.  I liken this to the egg toss game, this time the folks were far apart and the egg finally broke.....

from the linked article posted by @Stardust

"China Evergrande Group, the second largest real estate developer in China, defaulted on interest payments on two bonds back in September, with the 30-day grace period still ending in October. However, shortly before the end of the grace period, the public was misled by rumors about alleged interest payments. The international media also took the rumors for granted. Only the DMSA - Deutsche Marktscreening Agentur (German Market Screening Agency) already recognized the default at that time and proved in a study that the bankruptcy of Evergrande, the world’s most indebted corporation, could ultimately lead to a “Great Reset”, i.e. the final meltdown of the global financial system."

As you mention this eggs in the basket game one example is citi bank as a big bond holder. They claimed they received the payments but not gave any official confirmation and it is dangereous what they are doing because of the cross default regulations that the ones who not received the payments start the proceedings of the bankruptcy and this happened. So play such a game to save their ass could bring much more damage to them because left them outside of the proceedings.

[Rookiescot]

9 hours ago, Stardust said:

As you mention this eggs in the basket game one example is citi bank as a big bond holder. They claimed they received the payments but not gave any official confirmation and it is dangereous what they are doing because of the cross default regulations that the ones who not received the payments start the proceedings of the bankruptcy and this happened. So play such a game to save their ass could bring much more damage to them because left them outside of the proceedings.

That will be tied up in the courts for the next 100 years and because of that will never actually appear as a loss on Citi Banks spread sheets.

Like it or not these bankers know how to game the system. 

[Rookiescot]

Just wondering where Poolie went. I do hope he is OK. He was a regular contributor to this thread until very recently.  

[Poolie]

29 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Just wondering where Poolie went. I do hope he is OK. He was a regular contributor to this thread until very recently.  

He's watching.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, Poolie said:

He's watching.

What exactly is he watching? The meltdown he claimed was never going to happen?

[Stardust]

What we could read in the german financial press a few days ago now we can read the english speaking press. Some even claimed they received the payments but could not show a official confirmation. But this will not work anyway because of the cross default regulations.

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/1519580/Global-financial-crash-china-evergrande-collapse-china-property-market

 

[Stardust]

14 minutes ago, Stardust said:

What we could read in the german financial press a few days ago now we can read the english speaking press. Some even claimed they received the payments but could not show a official confirmation. But this will not work anyway because of the cross default regulations.

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/1519580/Global-financial-crash-china-evergrande-collapse-china-property-market

Part 2

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/1520635/global-financial-crash-china-evergrande-debt-payment-update

 

[PBS]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:45 PM, Rookiescot said:

So they lied about making the interest payments?

Wow.

Evergrande made a last minute payment, not going into bankruptcy right now. Guess it begs the question are Evergrande 'to big to fail' and will be bailed out by PRC government.

Evergrande's next payment deadline is on December 28, when it's due to cough up more than $255 million ($A350 million) in coupon payments.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-12/the-biz-evergrande-avoids-default-again/100614948

[gummy]

5 minutes ago, PBS said:

Evergrande made a last minute payment, not going into bankruptcy right now. Guess it begs the question are Evergrande 'to big to fail' and will be bailed out by PRC government.

Evergrande's next payment deadline is on December 28, when it's due to cough up more than $255 million ($A350 million) in coupon payments.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-12/the-biz-evergrande-avoids-default-again/100614948

Well that must come as a big disappointed to the China haters and indicates the false news spread on this thread

[ThailandRyan]

Not a China Hater as @gummy would like many to think we are, just a realist when it comes to a domino falling and taking others with it...

Yet Evergrande can not make the payments when they are due and instead initiates a grace period and at the 12th hour just before the clock expires they cough up the minimal funds needed.  So where are they obtaining the money from.  

https://glavx.org/2021/11/11/chinese-real-estate-company-evergrande-is-apparently-again-averting-a-default/

"The heavily indebted Chinese real estate developer Evergrande has apparently again prevented a default. As Chinese and international media unanimously report with reference to several creditors of coupon payments totaling around 148 million US dollars that were due on Wednesday, they have received the overdue interest payments.

Evergrande initially failed to make the payments due in October; a 30-day grace period ended on Wednesday.

A spokesman for international clearing company Clearstream told Bloomberg news agency that its customers had received overdue interest payments on three dollar bonds issued by Evergrande.

It is not the first time that Evergrande has only just met its payment obligations within the 30-day grace period. The situation at the real estate company remains tense. According to official figures, the company has a total debt of more than $ 300 billion."

Wait for it, Yes the Billionaire owner is coughing up the funds but can not keep this up in the long run, just kicking the can down the road a little bit each time and keeping the vultures at bay while legal proceeding are being filed against the company.

So it appears that a personal bailout by liquidating personal assets by the Billionaire owner is the way this has been going down.  If that's the case the man needs to shit or get off the pot, except he is collecting the interest on his billions in order to pay the millions.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/09/investing/china-property-crisis-evergrande-bail-out-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Evergrande is staring down about $8 billion worth of debt obligations due to foreign investors over the next year. The company's billionaire founder and chairman may have to pay at least some of that out of his own pocket.

The embattled conglomerate has become the poster child of China's property crisis. Fears that the real estate developer could default and spark a contagion effect roiled global markets in September. In its latest financial stability report, the United States Federal Reserve warned that "stresses in China's real estate sector could strain the Chinese financial system, with possible spillovers to the United States."

Evergrande has managed to meet some interest payments and stave off a collapse, at least for now. But a slew of new payment deadlines will soon expire. On Wednesday, a 30-day grace period is up on some $148 million worth of interest payments that the company already missed deadlines on.

So far, there's been little clarity on how the company will shore up more cash. It's been trying to sell some of its assets — from a partial stake in its car business to an office tower in Hong Kong — but hasn't had much luck.

 

[gummy]

14 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Not a China Hater as @gummy would like many to think we are, just a realist when it comes to a domino falling and taking others with it...

Yet Evergrande can not make the payments when they are due and instead initiates a grace period and at the 12th hour just before the clock expires they cough up the minimal funds needed.  So where are they obtaining the money from.  

https://glavx.org/2021/11/11/chinese-real-estate-company-evergrande-is-apparently-again-averting-a-default/

"The heavily indebted Chinese real estate developer Evergrande has apparently again prevented a default. As Chinese and international media unanimously report with reference to several creditors of coupon payments totaling around 148 million US dollars that were due on Wednesday, they have received the overdue interest payments.

Evergrande initially failed to make the payments due in October; a 30-day grace period ended on Wednesday.

A spokesman for international clearing company Clearstream told Bloomberg news agency that its customers had received overdue interest payments on three dollar bonds issued by Evergrande.

It is not the first time that Evergrande has only just met its payment obligations within the 30-day grace period. The situation at the real estate company remains tense. According to official figures, the company has a total debt of more than $ 300 billion."

Wait for it, Yes the Billionaire owner is coughing up the funds but can not keep this up in the long run, just kicking the can down the road a little bit each time and keeping the vultures at bay while legal proceeding are being filed against the company.

So it appears that a personal bailout by liquidating personal assets by the Billionaire owner is the way this has been going down.  If that's the case the man needs to shit or get off the pot, except he is collecting the interest on his billions in order to pay the millions.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/09/investing/china-property-crisis-evergrande-bail-out-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

Evergrande is staring down about $8 billion worth of debt obligations due to foreign investors over the next year. The company's billionaire founder and chairman may have to pay at least some of that out of his own pocket.

The embattled conglomerate has become the poster child of China's property crisis. Fears that the real estate developer could default and spark a contagion effect roiled global markets in September. In its latest financial stability report, the United States Federal Reserve warned that "stresses in China's real estate sector could strain the Chinese financial system, with possible spillovers to the United States."

Evergrande has managed to meet some interest payments and stave off a collapse, at least for now. But a slew of new payment deadlines will soon expire. On Wednesday, a 30-day grace period is up on some $148 million worth of interest payments that the company already missed deadlines on.

So far, there's been little clarity on how the company will shore up more cash. It's been trying to sell some of its assets — from a partial stake in its car business to an office tower in Hong Kong — but hasn't had much luck.

Bloomberg, well no wonder it was false news

[Poolie]

13 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Not a China Hater as @gummy would like many to think we are, just a realist when it comes to a domino falling and taking others with it...

Yet Evergrande can not make the payments when they are due and instead initiates a grace period and at the 12th hour just before the clock expires they cough up the minimal funds needed.  So where are they obtaining the money from.  

https://glavx.org/2021/11/11/chinese-real-estate-company-evergrande-is-apparently-again-averting-a-default/

"The heavily indebted Chinese real estate developer Evergrande has apparently again prevented a default. As Chinese and international media unanimously report with reference to several creditors of coupon payments totaling around 148 million US dollars that were due on Wednesday, they have received the overdue interest payments.

Evergrande initially failed to make the payments due in October; a 30-day grace period ended on Wednesday.

A spokesman for international clearing company Clearstream told Bloomberg news agency that its customers had received overdue interest payments on three dollar bonds issued by Evergrande.

It is not the first time that Evergrande has only just met its payment obligations within the 30-day grace period. The situation at the real estate company remains tense. According to official figures, the company has a total debt of more than $ 300 billion."

Wait for it, Yes the Billionaire owner is coughing up the funds but can not keep this up in the long run, just kicking the can down the road a little bit each time and keeping the vultures at bay while legal proceeding are being filed against the company.

So it appears that a personal bailout by liquidating personal assets by the Billionaire owner is the way this has been going down.  If that's the case the man needs to shit or get off the pot, except he is collecting the interest on his billions in order to pay the millions.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/09/investing/china-property-crisis-evergrande-bail-out-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

Evergrande is staring down about $8 billion worth of debt obligations due to foreign investors over the next year. The company's billionaire founder and chairman may have to pay at least some of that out of his own pocket.

The embattled conglomerate has become the poster child of China's property crisis. Fears that the real estate developer could default and spark a contagion effect roiled global markets in September. In its latest financial stability report, the United States Federal Reserve warned that "stresses in China's real estate sector could strain the Chinese financial system, with possible spillovers to the United States."

Evergrande has managed to meet some interest payments and stave off a collapse, at least for now. But a slew of new payment deadlines will soon expire. On Wednesday, a 30-day grace period is up on some $148 million worth of interest payments that the company already missed deadlines on.

So far, there's been little clarity on how the company will shore up more cash. It's been trying to sell some of its assets — from a partial stake in its car business to an office tower in Hong Kong — but hasn't had much luck.

I can't believe you're still quoting Bloomberg and CNN.

[PBS]

On 11/11/2021 at 8:14 PM, Stardust said:

A cross default happened

https://netherlandsnewslive.com/evergrande-defaults-bankruptcy-proceedings-initiated/280148/

Cross default has not actually occurred, the article you link to was speculative. As has previously been mentioned if the PRC property developers collapse the ramifications may extend to damaging the global economy, so not an event to be applauded for the people of PRC and other countries. Australia is already suffering economically with major reductions in coal and iron ore demand and pricing for export to PRC.

[mickkotlarski]

18 hours ago, Poolie said:

I can't believe you're still quoting Bloomberg and CNN.

Almost as reliable as PRC propaganda.

[Stardust]

3 hours ago, PBS said:

Cross default has not actually occurred, the article you link to was speculative. As has previously been mentioned if the PRC property developers collapse the ramifications may extend to damaging the global economy, so not an event to be applauded for the people of PRC and other countries. Australia is already suffering economically with major reductions in coal and iron ore demand and pricing for export to PRC.

Maybe you should read german news that there the bondholders are in the proceeding for the bankruptcy of Evergrande. And bonds have a cross default regulation! I guess you are a bit speculative! Other payments to other bond holder were without official confirmation!

[Stardust]

It is melting down 

https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3156099/worst-yet-come-chinas-housing-market-new-home-prices-fall-most-six-years

 

[PBS]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:16 PM, Stardust said:

Maybe you should read german news that there the bondholders are in the proceeding for the bankruptcy of Evergrande. And bonds have a cross default regulation! I guess you are a bit speculative! Other payments to other bond holder were without official confirmation!

Intent in the process of bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande is only intent. You have a habit of claiming intent / allegations as fact bankruptcy is in place. I suggest it would be a good idea for proceeding to complete lawful process before claiming bankruptcy, At this stage all up in the air, we do not know what action/s PRC will / will not take to protect their financial institutions / property markets should Evergrande be declared bankrupt.

An opinion piece on consequences should Everglade collapse:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-will-happen-if-evergrande-collapses-china-manage-fallout-2021-11?r=US&IR=T

[Stardust]

5 hours ago, PBS said:

Intent in the process of bankruptcy proceedings against Evergrande is only intent. You have a habit of claiming intent / allegations as fact bankruptcy is in place. I suggest it would be a good idea for proceeding to complete lawful process before claiming bankruptcy, At this stage all up in the air, we do not know what action/s PRC will / will not take to protect their financial institutions / property markets should Evergrande be declared bankrupt.

An opinion piece on consequences should Everglade collapse:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-will-happen-if-evergrande-collapses-china-manage-fallout-2021-11?r=US&IR=T

I see you not read about and why they go into the bankruptcy proceedings. Maybe read first about what the article is and about that they are bond holders and not received their payments. Also maybe read about bonds regulation and understand. Your points doesn't matter in any case you not understand the regulation. Any default will make a cross default and will end up in bankruptcy proceedings. Thats a regulation and not by choice! 

[Stardust]

7 minutes ago, Stardust said:

I see you not read about and why they go into the bankruptcy proceedings. Maybe read first about what the article is and about that they are bond holders and not received their payments. Also maybe read about bonds regulation and understand. Your points doesn't matter in any case you not understand the regulation. Any default will make a cross default and will end up in bankruptcy proceedings. Thats a regulation and not by choice! 

And not by intent! It is a regulation. They had defaults and got for every default a 30 day period they pay or someone bail them out. If there is a default after the 30 day period again, then it is game over and it will goes into the proceedings of the bankruptcy and it is a cross default if some defaults payments were made in time. Thats a regulation not by intents! And for a good reason because to stop bankruptcy delays what would create more damage and more failed payments.