Constitutional challenges represented by Trump

[Rookiescot]

Oh its getting beyond a joke now. Republicans in total denial about what Trump signed up to and horrified that Biden actually carried it out.

How Trump supporters can complain about that is beyond parody. 

They cry foul because Biden delayed the exit twice. Then call foul because he didnt rip up the agreement Trump signed. Then maintain Trumps deal (in which he sold out Afghanistan without even talking to the coalition partners or the Afghan government) is a great deal.

[9S_]

5 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Perhaps once more you need  check history. Was it the US  who actually helped rebuild Vietnam post that failed US involvement? Has the US funded the UXD location of ordinance in Laos dropped in a "secret " daily bombing campaign that in $ dollars exceeds in total anything provided in "clean up"?https://www.history.com/news/laos-most-bombed-country-vietnam-war

whataboutism. This is about Joe Bidens total unconditional surrender to the Taliban. Sure Joe was US Senator when Vietnam fell and he played a key role in depriving aid to South Vietnam

My arguments still stand so please refute if you can:

25 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Withdrawal from Afghanistan does not include total unconditional surrender to the Taliban. 

The fact that South Vietnam did not fall well after the US withdrawal proves you can withdraw without total unconditional surrender! The South Vietnamese were backed by the US until Joe Biden came along. 

No I gave you historical contrast and historic Afghan achievements in the past 20 years. Will Afghans be better off tomorrow than they were at minimum 3 months ago? 

You have failed to disprove any of my examples rather you just broadly reduced it “emotive criticisms” without a proper argument. Do better next time. 

Easy revenge for 9/11 and a free democrat Afghanistan. Which do you think people prefer? The Afghanistan under Bush, Obama and Trump or the Afghanistan under Biden?

I’ll give you a hint, there’s a reason why Afghan mothers threw their infants across barbed wire into the hands of American soldiers

There’s a reason why you had people cling to US cargo planes as they took off

There’s a reason why Afghans waded into knee deep sewage water begging for the US to take them into the airport

Theres a reason why the I Roam Alone girls Afghan interpreter requested her name and photo to be blasted on social media

Theres a reason why Bidens interpreter, who rescued Biden when his plane malfunctioned in the Afghan wilderness, put forth his name and face in western media

Theres a reason why so many Afghans risked being shot at the Taliban as they trekked towards the airport

Theres a reason why you saw Afghan girls screaming at American soldiers outside of Kabul Airport: “THE TALIBAN IS COMING HERE PLEASE THE TALIBAN”

Theres a reason why Afghan allies who helped us are hiding from the Taliban

Theres a reason why the Afghan girls soccer captain told her fellow teammates to burn their jerseys, delete their facebooks and instagram accounts

Theres a reason why thousands of Afghans fled across the Afghan border

Theres a reason why thousands of Afghans clung to desperate hope waiting outside Kabul airport

Naive and seemingly uninformed view of the Afghani reality? First of all Afghani is their currency, they’re called Afghans. Are you sure you know the reality?

 Last year Dec 30 2020 were Afghans better off that day compared to Jan 1 2001?

Today are Afghans better off compared to Def 30 2020?

Lets look in the future will Afghans be better off than Dec 30 2020?

good luck 

 

[9S_]

5 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Never mind the points of debate

How convenient of you.

[9S_]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Republicans in total denial about what Trump signed up to and horrified that Biden actually carried it out.

When did Afghanistan fall? Did it fall last year or last month? Who was President a month ago?

 

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

They cry foul because Biden delayed the exit twice. Then call foul because he didnt rip up the agreement Trump signed. Then maintain Trumps deal (in which he sold out Afghanistan without even talking to the coalition partners or the Afghan government) is a great deal.

Except that Biden was never bound by it and his claims that he was is lie:

Source: https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-middle-east-taliban-doha-e6f48507848aef2ee849154604aa11be

Quote:

But Biden can go only so far in claiming the agreement boxed him in. It had an escape clause: The U.S. could have withdrawn from the accord if Afghan peace talks failed. They did, but Biden chose to stay in it, although he delayed the complete pullout from May to September.

[9S_]

7 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Or could it be said 50,000 thousand Afghani's died as canon fodder on behalf of the intent of the US?

Or they died for their country?

Do you think they prefer Afghanistan of Bush, Obama and Trump or the Afghanistan of Biden?

There has to be a reason why Afghan mothers literally threw their infants over barbed wire into the hands of American soldiers!

Or how Afghans literally clinged to a US cargo plane as it took off. What’s the reason?

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

When did Afghanistan fall? Did it fall last year or last month? Who was President a month ago?

Except that Biden was never bound by it and his claims that he was is lie:

Source: https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-middle-east-taliban-doha-e6f48507848aef2ee849154604aa11be

Quote:

But Biden can go only so far in claiming the agreement boxed him in. It had an escape clause: The U.S. could have withdrawn from the accord if Afghan peace talks failed. They did, but Biden chose to stay in it, although he delayed the complete pullout from May to September.

Who signed up to a deal to surrender Afghanistan to the Taliban? Trump.

Who signed that deal without consulting the other nations who had given blood and tears to trying to support the US? Trump.

Face it. Your hero sold out Afghanistan. He told the Taliban what the US was going to do even before he told his allies. He signed an agreement  to that effect.

Net result. Next time you want a war with someone you may not find many partners wishing to join you in such a venture.

Trumps legacy. A United States which can not be trusted.

[Convert54]

9 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

whataboutism. This is about Joe Bidens total unconditional surrender to the Taliban. Sure Joe was US Senator when Vietnam fell and he played a key role in depriving aid to South Vietnam

My arguments still stand so please refute if you can:

good luck 

The US  cut and and ran at the culmination of their involvement in Vietnam . Was Biden President?

Was it Biden then who dictated the deprivation of aid to Vietnam?  No Senate majority vote Huh?

Now  just for a moment consider the outcome of Trumps original call to withdraw from Afghanistan. Do you believe  he would have proposed ongoing funding to which prevailing political sector to convince them and the rest of the world of humanitarian concerns? The Taliban who the US had enabled but have become an embarrassment or the ISIS supportive remnant in the north?

[Convert54]

13 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Or they died for their country?

Do you think they prefer Afghanistan of Bush, Obama and Trump or the Afghanistan of Biden?

There has to be a reason why Afghan mothers literally threw their infants over barbed wire into the hands of American soldiers!

Or how Afghans literally clinged to a US cargo plane as it took off. What’s the reason?

The reason  in that is because they aligned themselves to a losing side and have become victim of it as a result. Their motivation to do so was probably due to the false belief they had been convinced to by way of financial reward and social status derived from. In other words "suckered" if it can be acknowledged the US military were there to institute,supervise, a political and social structure that it accorded them in the naive conviction it would be permanent . That in the sad end they were abandoned is not without precedent.....

[9S_]

1 minute ago, Convert54 said:

Was it Biden then who dictated the deprivation of aid to Vietnam?

Yes!

Context: Nixon promised that even though the US withdraw from South Vietnam aid would continue to flow until Joe Biden came along as US Senator

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-vietnam-afghanistan/2021/08/15/fd155518-fdd5-11eb-ba7e-2cf966e88e93_story.html

Quote:

 

Two weeks before Saigon fell in April 1975, a 32-year-old Joe Biden was among the senators summoned to the White House for a top-secret briefing on the crisis in Vietnam.

Though just a freshman, Biden gave the president a clear message: The situation in Vietnam was hopeless, and the United States should leave as quickly as possible, according to a column by Rowland Evans and Robert Novak at the time that described Biden’s interactions with then-President Gerald Ford.

 

Other senators who supported Biden at the time were taken aback by their young colleague’s “didactic performance,” the columnists wrote.

 

Three weeks before the fall of Saigon, top Ford administration officials pleaded with Biden and other senators for more U.S. military aid, according to newspaper accounts.

[Biden refused] “I am convinced there is absolutely no chance (That the SVA can defend itself against the NVA),” Biden told reporters after the briefing, according to an article in the Memphis Commercial Appeal.

 

8 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Do you believe  he would have proposed ongoing funding

I’ll tell you what you wouldn’t do. He wouldn’t cut off funding to the Afghan National Air Force like Joe Biden. You need to realize that when the US trained the Afghan Armed Forces, the US modeled Afghans army similar to the US Army: close coordination with ground forces and air support. You take out the air support you take out the army. And that’s what Joe Biden when he cut funding for fuel, ammunition, maintenance and stopped all contractors from servicing the Afghan Air Force. 

 

10 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

The Taliban who the US had enabled but have become an embarrassment or the ISIS supportive remnant in the north

With Afghans air force absolutely. But Biden cut that off neutering the Afghans effective ability to fight back. 50,000 Afghan soldiers died fighting for Afghanistan. It didn’t have to be this way at all. This is the worst possible outcome ever. And now because of Joe Biden the reality of Afghanistan is far worse than it was 3 months ago. 

 

 

[9S_]

1 minute ago, Convert54 said:

In other words "suckered" if it can be acknowledged the US military were there to institute,supervise, a political and social structure that it accorded them in the naive conviction it would be permanent

And you accuse me of being naive…it could have been permanent if not for Joe Biden. The dark ages of Afghanistan didn’t exist last year, didn’t exist 2 years ago, didn’t exist 5 years ago or 10 years ago or even at least 20 years ago. People born after the collapse of the Taliban do not know the Dark Ages of the Taliban.

They weren’t sucked into anything. Frankly that is offensive and naive devoid of any human rationality and compassion. You are willfully ignoring the Afghan successes whether big or small in the past 20 years. 

Just ask yourself if Afghan mother were hopeful of the future did they need to throw their babies over barbed wire into the hands of American soldiers?

5 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

That in the sad end they were abandoned is not without precedent.....

Except it didn’t have to be this way. That’s the point. This is Joe Bidens decision to totally unconditionally surrender to the Taliban. 

It’s the same as Joe Bidens decision to vaporize 7 children, with a drone strike, when they ran to greet their father coming home from delivering water to poor Afghans. 

[Convert54]

2 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Yes!

Context: Nixon promised that even though the US withdraw from South Vietnam aid would continue to flow until Joe Biden came along as US Senator

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-vietnam-afghanistan/2021/08/15/fd155518-fdd5-11eb-ba7e-2cf966e88e93_story.html

Quote:

Two weeks before Saigon fell in April 1975, a 32-year-old Joe Biden was among the senators summoned to the White House for a top-secret briefing on the crisis in Vietnam.

Though just a freshman, Biden gave the president a clear message: The situation in Vietnam was hopeless, and the United States should leave as quickly as possible, according to a column by Rowland Evans and Robert Novak at the time that described Biden’s interactions with then-President Gerald Ford.

 

Other senators who supported Biden at the time were taken aback by their young colleague’s “didactic performance,” the columnists wrote.

Three weeks before the fall of Saigon, top Ford administration officials pleaded with Biden and other senators for more U.S. military aid, according to newspaper accounts.

[Biden refused] “I am convinced there is absolutely no chance (That the SVA can defend itself against the NVA),” Biden told reporters after the briefing, according to an article in the Memphis Commercial Appeal.

I’ll tell you what you wouldn’t do. He wouldn’t cut off funding to the Afghan National Air Force like Joe Biden. You need to realize that when the US trained the Afghan Armed Forces, the US modeled Afghans army similar to the US Army: close coordination with ground forces and air support. You take out the air support you take out the army. And that’s what Joe Biden when he cut funding for fuel, ammunition, maintenance and stopped all contractors from servicing the Afghan Air Force. 

With Afghans air force absolutely. But Biden cut that off neutering the Afghans effective ability to fight back. 50,000 Afghan soldiers died fighting for Afghanistan. It didn’t have to be this way at all. This is the worst possible outcome ever. And now because of Joe Biden the reality of Afghanistan is far worse than it was 3 months ago. 

So am I to believe the Afghan Air Force is still operating in opposition to the self declared Government?

[9S_]

1 minute ago, Convert54 said:

So am I to believe the Afghan Air Force is still operating in opposition to the self declared Government?

 Nope! Joe Biden cut them off. That was the writing on the wall for the ground forces of the Afghan Army. 

Source (behind paywall): https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanistan-army-collapse-taliban-11628958253

Quote:

 

The Afghan army fighting alongside American troops was molded to match the way the Americans operate. The U.S. military, the world’s most advanced, relies heavily on combining ground operations with air power, using aircraft to resupply outposts, strike targets, ferry the wounded, and collect reconnaissance and intelligence.

In the wake of President Biden’s withdrawal decision, the U.S. pulled its air support, intelligence and contractors servicing Afghanistan’s planes and helicopters. That meant the Afghan military simply couldn’t operate anymore. The same happened with another failed American effort, the South Vietnamese army in the 1970s, said retired Lt. Gen. Daniel Bolger, who commanded the U.S.-led coalition’s mission to train Afghan forces in 2011-2013.

 

[Convert54]

1 minute ago, 9S_ said:

And you accuse me of being naive…it could have been permanent if not for Joe Biden. The dark ages of Afghanistan didn’t exist last year, didn’t exist 2 years ago, didn’t exist 5 years ago or 10 years ago or even at least 20 years ago. People born after the collapse of the Taliban do not know the Dark Ages of the Taliban.

They weren’t sucked into anything. Frankly that is offensive and naive devoid of any human rationality and compassion. You are willfully ignoring the Afghan successes whether big or small in the past 20 years. 

Just ask yourself if Afghan mother were hopeful of the future did they need to throw their babies over barbed wire into the hands of American soldiers?

Except it didn’t have to be this way. That’s the point. This is Joe Bidens decision to totally unconditionally surrender to the Taliban. 

It’s the same as Joe Bidens decision to vaporize 7 children, with a drone strike, when they ran to greet their father coming home from delivering water to poor Afghans. 

Once again emotive distortions of reality. Did Biden "select" the target or was he duped into the belief the intelligence offered was accurate? Such events have happened many times . Do you wish to ignore similar happenings at the hands of the CIA  ( a military unit???) in Pakistan ?

The underlying reality is that the US has inflicted militarized "interventions" in far to many places  without disclosed legitimate cause. Has it provided solutions in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen ,Iraq etc ?

 

 

 

[billywillyjones]

On 9/27/2021 at 1:32 PM, PBS said:

Is Trump seeding the ground for an authoritarian government in 2024?

Trump and his Republican allies are actively preparing to ensure his victory by whatever means necessary. Trump’s charges of fraud in the 2020 election are now primarily aimed at establishing the predicate to challenge future election results that do not go his way.

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/2381805860395/opinion-our-constitutional-crisis-is-already-here

I see Trump is still living rent free between your ears lol....

[Convert54]

Just now, Convert54 said:

Once again emotive distortions of reality. Did Biden "select" the target or was he duped into the belief the intelligence offered was accurate? Such events have happened many times . Do you wish to ignore similar happenings at the hands of the CIA  ( a military unit???) in Pakistan ?

The underlying reality is that the US has inflicted militarized "interventions" in far to many places  without disclosed legitimate cause. Has it provided solutions in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen ,Iraq etc ?

I missed the "dark ages" of the taliban shite. Ignore the history if you wish.

The  most prolifically funded  Armed Forces does not denote superiority until tested against the will of a provoked contestant.

[riclag]

2 hours ago, anarchofarmer said:

Love the way so many commentaters / keyboard warriors take this so serious! Trump is an arsehole who does what he's told but can't keep his stupid mouth shut! Biden is a life long puppet who also does what he's told, as long as he can stay awake! The problem with the US is the people who really make the decisions, not the mouthpieces! And all the crap about right / left wing commentries -all the basic social policies fall way behind all developed countries and most non developed also! They love tpo talk about democracy but in reality have only one "principle": profit!

I’ ll take Trump any day ,as opposed to the last 60 years of political misfits ,that helped cause and support endless wars, neglect of my countries borders, the spread of socialist ideologies.I have a extreme distaste for People who support Govt total control of health, wealth, and welfare! 
Trump exposed  the establishment! In doing so he was attacked by the lefts army of activists,the msm, big tech, through lies by using fake news, activists pretending to be reporters using anonymous sourced news stories,attempted soft coup by intel agencies and the Rino’s who supported the  globalization on steroids!

He wasn’t perfect and he’s not a polished politician but he was for the things that I and many others wish to see endure ,respect ,family  values,patriotic loyalty to my countries proud heritage and the freedom to choose one’s destiny!

Edited September 29, 2021 by riclag

[9S_]

4 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Once again emotive distortions of reality. Did Biden "select" the target or was he duped into the belief the intelligence offered was accurate

You’d think you know before ordering the strike  

 

5 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Do you wish to ignore similar happenings at the hands of the CIA  ( a military unit???) in Pakistan

Well true Obama did assassinate US citizen without a trial and turned a wedding into a funeral in an instant. 

 

7 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

The underlying reality is that the US has inflicted militarized "interventions" in far to many places  without disclosed legitimate cause

No our mission was clear in Afghanistan to take out Taliban and kill Osama which we did under Bush, Obama and Trump. You can’t just blanket the success of the past 20 years, successes seen in Afghanistan and equate that to other US foreign policy initiatives. The successes on the ground were real.
 

Again in all seriousness what do the Afghan mothers, who throw their children over barbed wire into the the hands of American soldiers, what do they want for their children when they do that? 

11 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Has it provided solutions in Afghanistan

It did literally. Then Joe Biden came along. 

 

11 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Libya

Joe Biden did that too! I guess he got mad that Libya didn’t have open air slave markets for Africans. Thanks to Joe’s intervention into Libya they do now

12 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Syria, Yemen

Joe’s hands were here too! Now because of Joe’s intervention into Syria theyre fractured into civil war, Assad gassed his own people. 

 

13 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Iraq

And guess who had a hand here too! with Bidens premature withdrawal from Iraq, the rise of ISIS. 
 

What happened to Afghanistan didn’t have to happen. The last 20 years could have been the future 20 years but because of a certain US President, it will never be.

 

[Andrew Reeve]

The topic of the thread is:

Constitutional challenges represented by Trump

Afghanistan and the Taliban (do not mention on this thread) view this as a warning.

[Convert54]

Well it seems that the historical transgressions of a militarist nation are to be ignored in the  current interest and support  for the  vacant philosophical mentality of a deposed narcissistic bludger who if could see no personal advantage rejected rationality as opposed to a seasoned statesman with scars acquired in the process  who is attempting to steer his  nation out of international relegation to dunce-hood may not being doing well in some situations despite those who would  prefer yet deny relegation.

As of this comment I am departing further participation in this topic.

 

[9S_]

45 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Well it seems that the historical transgressions of a militarist nation are to be ignored in the  current interest and support  for the  vacant philosophical mentality of a deposed narcissistic bludger who if could see no personal advantage rejected rationality as opposed to a seasoned statesman with scars acquired in the process  who is attempting to steer his  nation out of international relegation to dunce-hood may not being doing well in some situations despite those who would  prefer yet deny relegation.

As of this comment I am departing further participation in this topic.

 

[Convert54]

7 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Could not say it yourself? Need rely on the obfuscating dialogue of a scripted movie clip or evangelical scammer? Bye bye.

[PBS]

11 hours ago, Fester said:

Yours is rather a rant more than a reply. Does the possibility of 50k illegal votes in one county in Arizona not worry you?

If there has been manipulaion of the Supreme Court by the Republicans they haven'been very successful. Courts across the USA have not allowed any meaningful hearings of these election complaints. Hopefully, at least some of the truth will eventually surface so that the real anti-democratic liars may be exposed.

No possibilities do not bother me, rule of law is what matters. Supreme Court has made favourable decision for trump world, the hyper partisan decision making was called out in my post to which you're responding.

[PBS]

9 hours ago, billywillyjones said:

I see Trump is still living rent free between your ears lol....

Not trump, but what he represents. My concerns regards trump are his ongoing efforts to overturn the  Constitutional and his repeated efforts whilst in Office to subvert government by appointing political lackeys who were loyal to him personally, not the Constitution. Plus his constant attacks and efforts to undermine Western alliances by unilateralism and courting authoritarian rulers.

The evident truth of trump and his enablers political and criminally corrupt activities doesn't bother you and some others, Court actions are not to far away. So be it that some US and foreign nationals are of the mindset to encourage the path to authoritarianism, an pathway that would bring great harm to the Western world,  thankfully, at this stage, unlikely to succeed.

[billywillyjones]

5 hours ago, PBS said:

Not trump, but what he represents. My concerns regards trump are his ongoing efforts to overturn the  Constitutional and his repeated efforts whilst in Office to subvert government by appointing political lackeys who were loyal to him personally, not the Constitution. Plus his constant attacks and efforts to undermine Western alliances by unilateralism and courting authoritarian rulers.

The evident truth of trump and his enablers political and criminally corrupt activities doesn't bother you and some others, Court actions are not to far away. So be it that some US and foreign nationals are of the mindset to encourage the path to authoritarianism, an pathway that would bring great harm to the Western world,  thankfully, at this stage, unlikely to succeed.

Here you go again making assertions about others opinions without not knowing what you are talking about.  But I don't see that nor does anyone with any common sense.  If anything the  Constitution has been under attack from Obama and Biden regimes more than Trump ever did.

I find it interesting that all of a sudden people from all countries are concerned about the well being of Americans when they really despise Trump and are really just throwing a "Trump tantrum". 

Trump is no longer the President.  Take a deep breath and let the hate go.  Biden is the current President so why not focus on his record and direction rather than  letting Trump live rent free between your ears.

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by billywillyjones

[PBS]

1 hour ago, billywillyjones said:

Here you go again making assertions about others opinions without not knowing what you are talking about.  But I don't see that nor does anyone with any common sense.  If anything the  Constitution has been under attack from Obama and Biden regimes more than Trump ever did.

I find it interesting that all of a sudden people from all countries are concerned about the well being of Americans when they really despise Trump and are really just throwing a "Trump tantrum". 

Trump is no longer the President.  Take a deep breath and let the hate go.  Biden is the current President so why not focus on his record and direction rather than  letting Trump live rent free between your ears.

I understand we are permitted to post topics in accordance with forum guidelines. Don't appreciate your attempt to tell me what I can or cannot do.

BTW don't hate trump, just revulsion at trump world ongoing lies, misinformation together with efforts to suppress Constitutional democracy to illegitimately seize power. 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by PBS