Constitutional challenges represented by Trump

[9S_]

41 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

It is easy.

Who signed the withdrawal agreement?

Are you saying that Biden should have ignored the deal Trump signed?

Joe Biden ignored the Doha Agreement!

It was Joe Bidens decision to withdraw from Afghanistan not Donald Trump.
 

Here’s Joe Biden in July defending his decision to withdraw. He’s not defending Trump

Here’s Kamala Harris praising Joe Bidens decision to withdraw from Afghanistan. And Here’s democrats including Obama praising Joe Biden’s decision to withdraw 

How do you square blaming the total unconditional surrender to the Taliban to be pinned on Trump, when you have Biden for months touting his decision to withdraw??

[Convert54]

3 hours ago, 9S_ said:

Pentagon, military and diplomatic advisors warned Bush not to withdraw, he listened. 
 

Pentagon, military and diplomatic advisors warned Obama not to withdraw, he listened. 

Pentagon, military and diplomatic advisors warned Trump not to withdraw, he listened. 
 

His peace deal was a condition-based deal, which the Taliban broke but Biden decided to ignore it and pull out anyways

Biden is the only US President who ignored US diplomats in Afghanistan to NOT withdraw. Biden is the only US President to ignore Military advisors, Pentagon advisors, including his own generals to NOT withdraw. 
 

It’s real easy:

1. who was President when Afghanistan fell?

2. Was it Trump who left office on Jan 20 2021 or was it Biden who assumed office in Jan 21 2021?

It seems convenient to obscure the fact that the Pentagon provided bad intelligence which Biden thought would allow for time for more orderly withdrawal. And in the event it seems obvious the Taliban were and had been waiting in the shadows probably for a long time. Certainly Biden ,as President, takes the blame but the reality is the history of the occupation demonstrates once again that imposing the dictates of US foreign policy achieves little advantage to either side.

[Fluke]

9 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

It seems convenient to obscure the fact that the Pentagon provided bad intelligence which Biden thought would allow for time for more orderly withdrawal. And in the event it seems obvious the Taliban were and had been waiting in the shadows probably for a long time. Certainly Biden ,as President, takes the blame but the reality is the history of the occupation demonstrates once again that imposing the dictates of US foreign policy achieves little advantage to either side.

Biden got told that Kabul will probably fall quite soon after the USA had left Afghanistan and he dismissed that as lies and Kabul fell a few days after

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fluke said:

Biden got told that Kabul will probably fall quite soon after the USA had left Afghanistan and he dismissed that as lies and Kabul fell a few days after

Because the Taliban got busy making deals with the local commanders and Tribal leaders as soon as Trump signed his deal.

Thats how they were able to take over the country with hardly a shot being fired.

[Fester]

57 minutes ago, Fluke said:

Biden seemed to have reversed many of Trumps decisions and policies

He did.

[Rookiescot]

27 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Joe Biden ignored the Doha Agreement!

It was Joe Bidens decision to withdraw from Afghanistan not Donald Trump.
 

Here’s Joe Biden in July defending his decision to withdraw. He’s not defending Trump

Here’s Kamala Harris praising Joe Bidens decision to withdraw from Afghanistan. And Here’s democrats including Obama praising Joe Biden’s decision to withdraw 

How do you square blaming the total unconditional surrender to the Taliban to be pinned on Trump, when you have Biden for months touting his decision to withdraw??

Stop trying to rewrite history.

Its a fact Trump sold out everyone in Afghanistan with his rubbish deal.

Military officials blindsided by Trump announcement of early US troop withdrawal from Afghanistan (militarytimes.com)

[Fluke]

1 minute ago, Fester said:

He did.

Yes, Trump began the process of  removing troops from Afghanistan and Joe finished the process off  

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Fluke said:

Biden seemed to have reversed many of Trumps decisions and policies

So he should have torn up Trumps deal then?

[Fluke]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So he should have torn up Trumps deal then?

He should have at least kept the airbase open and evacuated everyone before the last USA soldiers left 

[9S_]

9 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Stop trying to rewrite history

How can I re-write history when Afghanistan fell last month? Trump was not even in office. But you do have many videos of Biden touting his decision to withdraw. To deny that fact is to reject reality and history itself. 
 

Who was President when Afghanistan fell?

Who was President when the provincial capitals fell starting in May 2021?

13 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Military officials blindsided by Trump announcement of early US troop withdrawal from Afghanistan (militarytimes.com

Then why didn’t Afghanistan fall last year when Trump was President?

How many provincial capitals did Kabul control on the last day of Trumps presidency?

How much territory did Kabul control under the last day of Trumps presidency?

Who controlled Begram airbase on the last day of Trumps presidency?

How many troops were still in Afghanistan on Trumps last day of his presidency?

[9S_]

35 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

It seems convenient to obscure the fact that the Pentagon provided bad intelligence which Biden thought would allow for time for more orderly withdrawal. And in the event it seems obvious the Taliban were and had been waiting in the shadows probably for a long time

 

Funny, I don’t remember George Bush handing Afghanistan to the Taliban when he was President. I don’t remember Obama handing Afghanistan to the Taliban when he was President. I certainly don’t remember Trump handing Afghanistan when he was President. 

 

I do remember Joe Biden totally unconditionally surrendering to the Taliban because it happened just last month!

36 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

but the reality is the history of the occupation demonstrates once again that imposing the dictates of US foreign policy achieves little advantage to either side

 

The Taliban now control far more territory than they did when we first invaded in 2001. The Taliban now control far more advanced weaponry than they did when we first invaded in 2001. This didn’t happen under Bush. This didn’t happen under Obama and this didn’t happened under Trump. This did happen last month, and guess who was Resident last month: easy Joe Biden! (technically he was on vacation when Afghanistan fell)

 

I disagree with you on that. The fact that:

a.       Afghanistan democratically elected 2 presidents

b.      Elected female politicians, mayors and governors

c.       50,000 Afghan soldiers died while fighting the Taliban

d.      Gaining control of all Afghan provincial capitals and provinces

e.      Had a functioning army and air force

 

Proved not only US foreign policy success but also Afghan success. Please do not spread Joe Biden’s absolute failure of total unconditional surrender to the successes both the US and Afghanistan have made over the past 20 years

1.       Just one week before Joe Biden’s total unconditional surrender to the Taliban, a female journalist lamented that she went to a foreign film festival in Kabul. Now 21 years ago before the US invasion of Afghanistan: was it possible for Afghanistan, let alone Kabul a Taliban stronghold, to host a foreign film festival with girls in attendance?

2.       Many Afghans enjoyed the television show: “The Voice of Afghanistan” Do you think it was possible 21 years ago before the US invasion of Afghanistan that the show “The Voice of Afghanistan” could be shown on TV?

3.       Many girls now born after the collapse of the Taliban regime in 2001 wore only hijabs, they could go to school, they could go to the hair salon. Do you think it was possible 21 years ago before the US invasion of Afghanistan that the girls could wear hijabs, walk around freely without a male chaperone, go to school or even work?

4.       Many youtubers visited and documented their travels freely and safely in Afghanistan, notably Drew Binsky and I Roam Alone. 21 years ago before US invasion do you think foreigners, especially westerners, could travel to Afghanistan and survive?

This is Joe Bidens total unconditional surrender

 

 

[9S_]

51 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So he should have torn up Trumps deal then?

 

How could Joe Biden be bound by a deal: 

1) that wasn’t a treaty and wasn’t ratified by the Senate. He already reneged on Trumps Paris Climate Accord by putting us back in. Biden ended Trumps sanctions on the Nord Stream Pipeline, enriching Putin in the process. He eliminated those deals but kept the one with the Taliban? 

2) When Biden unilaterally changed the withdrawal date and didn’t even tell our allies

3) When Biden ignored Taliban attacks, especially when they launched a massive attack in mid-April with their ISIS and Al-Qaida allies? Nearly 5,500 attacks?

If Trumps deal was so bad as Biden keeps claiming, why did he keep it? Is he not the US Resident? He certainly scrapped Trumps sanctions against anyone who helped the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline between Russia and Europe. Biden certainly allowed the US back into the Paris Climate Accords. But Biden kept the Doha Agreement with the Taliban? But failed to mention it when he touted his own decision to withdraw from Afghanistan, earning praise from his own Vice President, but also former President Obama and the media. He only brought up the Doha Agreement after his Total Unconditional Surrender to the Taliban.

If Trumps deal was so bad, then why did the violence erupt under Biden’s watch and not Donald Trumps? The suicide attack that killed 13 soldiers is the worst attack on US forces since 2010-11. 

And Joe Bidens response to the death of 13 American Heroes (that Joe sent in) was to vaporize 7 children as they ran to greet their father after a long day of delivering water to poor Afghans

[Convert54]

1 hour ago, 9S_ said:

Funny, I don’t remember George Bush handing Afghanistan to the Taliban when he was President. I don’t remember Obama handing Afghanistan to the Taliban when he was President. I certainly don’t remember Trump handing Afghanistan when he was President. 

I do remember Joe Biden totally unconditionally surrendering to the Taliban because it happened just last month!

The Taliban now control far more territory than they did when we first invaded in 2001. The Taliban now control far more advanced weaponry than they did when we first invaded in 2001. This didn’t happen under Bush. This didn’t happen under Obama and this didn’t happened under Trump. This did happen last month, and guess who was Resident last month: easy Joe Biden! (technically he was on vacation when Afghanistan fell)

I disagree with you on that. The fact that:

a.       Afghanistan democratically elected 2 presidents

b.      Elected female politicians, mayors and governors

c.       50,000 Afghan soldiers died while fighting the Taliban

d.      Gaining control of all Afghan provincial capitals and provinces

e.      Had a functioning army and air force

Proved not only US foreign policy success but also Afghan success. Please do not spread Joe Biden’s absolute failure of total unconditional surrender to the successes both the US and Afghanistan have made over the past 20 years

1.       Just one week before Joe Biden’s total unconditional surrender to the Taliban, a female journalist lamented that she went to a foreign film festival in Kabul. Now 21 years ago before the US invasion of Afghanistan: was it possible for Afghanistan, let alone Kabul a Taliban stronghold, to host a foreign film festival with girls in attendance?

2.       Many Afghans enjoyed the television show: “The Voice of Afghanistan” Do you think it was possible 21 years ago before the US invasion of Afghanistan that the show “The Voice of Afghanistan” could be shown on TV?

3.       Many girls now born after the collapse of the Taliban regime in 2001 wore only hijabs, they could go to school, they could go to the hair salon. Do you think it was possible 21 years ago before the US invasion of Afghanistan that the girls could wear hijabs, walk around freely without a male chaperone, go to school or even work?

4.       Many youtubers visited and documented their travels freely and safely in Afghanistan, notably Drew Binsky and I Roam Alone. 21 years ago before US invasion do you think foreigners, especially westerners, could travel to Afghanistan and survive?

This is Joe Bidens total unconditional surrender

Truely regrettable consequence of the withdrawal if all of the provided social advantages are lost especially for females.

It is such a shame that the US empowered the (now called) Taliban back in the 1980's  which led to their progression across Afghanistan to eventually impose a very harsh Islamic rule to counter the extreme levels of violence and corruption that were prevalent. However the pretext for invading Afghanistan was not Afghani human rights but to apprehend Osama bin Laden who was actually eventually captured and killed 10 years ago in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. And Pakistan was an ally of the US in the era of support for the Mujahdeen no less !

If 20 years ago if the rights of women were enough to invade a country then why not Saudi Arabia? Add to that is the fact Osama bin Laden was a Saudi as were the majority of his collaborators.

Over the last 20 years Saudi and other near countries have made improvements admittedly on gender issues but politically are obscured.

History is more important to real understanding than emotive appeals.

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Convert54
replacing missing text

[PBS]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

Not surprising really but perhaps he just wants to see votes allowed and counted properly. After the recent Arizona audit findings for Maricopa County, there obviously needs to be a review. Although Joe Biden was confirmed as still having more "votes", tens of thousands of these would have fairly been disqualified under present AZ election laws, with the top three and most critical categories of these enough to possibly swing the whole state of Arizona to Trump. Below from the audit findings:

Mail‐in Ballots Voted from Prior Address Voter History 23,344.

Potential Voters that Voted in Multiple Counties Voter History 10,342.

More Ballots Returned by Voter Than Received Certified Results 9,041.

Several other problems identified with the election. Report here:

https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/cyber-ninjas-report

You're correct trump world is busily enacting voter disenfranchisement / suppressions laws thanks to the Supreme Court manipulation by Republicans:

“What is tragic here is that the Court has (yet again) rewritten — in order to weaken — a statute that stands as a monument to America’s greatness, and protects against its basest impulses,” Kagan wrote. “What is tragic is that the Court has damaged a statute designed to bring about ‘the end of discrimination in voting.

Not one of trump's claims have been proven in a Court of law. Even now trump and Co repeat the 'big lie'. However, factually trump was a loser in the 2020 elections.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/07/donald-trump-is-a-loser-434103

trump is an anti democratic, pathological liar, a long term disciple of Bannon. If it were not for Pence, trump would have overturned the Constitution and led the US into an abyss, As per the OP I posted, trump is a political criminal, along with his enablers, whose comeuppance is hopefully not too far away, in conjunction with criminal prosecution in New York. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by PBS

[9S_]

58 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

It is such a shame that the US empowered the (now called) Taliban back in the 1980'

Which Joe Biden has done with his total unconditional surrender to the Taliban, not only did failed and disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan enlarged Taliban control to the entire country but also infused the Taliban with nearly $1 Billion in US military equipment and pallets of cash

https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1430851901239795712?s=20

58 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

which led to their progression across Afghanistan to eventually impose a very harsh Islamic rule to counter the extreme levels of violence and corruption that were prevalent

Except from the US initial success in 2001 to Joe Biden total unconditional surrender to the Taliban it was way better:

1. Afghanistan was able to send their own athletes to participate in the Olympics after the successful toppling of the Taliban. Now because of Joe Biden they can’t do that! So much so that their all-girl soccer captain (who was out of the country when Joe Biden surrendered Afghanistan) told her fellow players to burn their jerseys, delete their facebook and Instagram accounts to avoid Taliban retaliation. 

2. Girls were able to attend school. And not just elementary school but middle school, high school and even college! And after college they could work if they wanted to! The most highly rated news channel in Afghanistan was hosted by a female news anchor!

3. Women joined the police force! Become mayors and governors which plenty were elected. Women even became representative leaders in national politics. 

4. Afghans watched movies, played music and even enjoyed participating in break dancing competitions. 
 

And because of Joe Bidens total unconditional surrender to the Taliban, all of the gains won will be washed away. 

58 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

However the pretext for invading Afghanistan was not Afghani human rights but to apprehend Osama bin Laden

And we did and we also freed Afghanistan from the terror known as the Taliban. So much so that:

1. Afghans democratically elected 2 presidents. They can’t do that no more because of Joe Biden

2. Afghans elected female mayors, governors and legislatures. But because of Joe Biden most were captured and killed or fled the country

3. Women went to school but not anymore. They went to school under Bush, under Obama and under Trump, guess who they can’t do that under

4. Afghans enjoyed their own music and foreign music. Making music videos incorporating both styles which was popular among the Afghan youth. 

5. Watch Afghan-made films or even foreign films in the heart of Kabul, the old Taliban capital. 

6. They could view their own sports teams duke it out in their stadiums without having to watch weekly executions. 
 

59 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Add to that is the fact Osama bin Laden was a Saudi as were the majority of his collaborators.

Except their base of operations were in Afghanistan courtesy of the Taliban. Now under Joe Biden, the Taliban and Al-awards alliance is back. Now that the Taliban has a new country expect more terrorist attacks in the near future. Just like when they sent a suicide bomber to kill 13 American soldiers. 

 

1 hour ago, Convert54 said:

If 20 years ago if the rights of women were enough to invade a country then why not Saudi Arabia?

The US never invaded a country to secure the rights of women. But because of the US successes under Bush, the successes under Obama and the successes under Biden, women enjoyed more rights than they did before the US liberation of Afghanistan. And because of Joe Biden those rights will be vaporized akin to how he vaporized 7 children as they greeted their father who was tired after delivering water to poor Afghans. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Convert54 said:

History is more important to real understanding than emotive appeals.

I never knew that women going to school can be reduced to mere “emotive appeals”

I never knew that Afghan children born after the fall of the Taliban, children who not the horrors of their elders, will be subjugated to the same horrors as mere “emotive appeals”

I never knew that the Taliban kidnapping children as young as 12 to be wives and sex slaves are nothing more than mere “emotive appeals”

Who knew that the 50,000 Afghan national security forces who died defending their country are nothing more than mere “emotive appeals”

Who knew that Zaki Anwari’s fear of Taliban rule would cause him to cling to the side of a US cargo plane and falling hundreds of feet to his death was an “emotive appeal”

1 hour ago, Convert54 said:

History is more important to real understanding

And youre absolutely correct! Afghanistan, thanks to Joe Biden, will never enjoy the freedoms and successes that they felt under Bush, under Obama and under Trump. For the past 20 years was waaay better exponentially better than what they will face in the years to come. You can thank Joe Biden for that

[anarchofarmer]

Love the way so many commentaters / keyboard warriors take this so serious! Trump is an arsehole who does what he's told but can't keep his stupid mouth shut! Biden is a life long puppet who also does what he's told, as long as he can stay awake! The problem with the US is the people who really make the decisions, not the mouthpieces! And all the crap about right / left wing commentries -all the basic social policies fall way behind all developed countries and most non developed also! They love tpo talk about democracy but in reality have only one "principle": profit!

[Fester]

39 minutes ago, PBS said:

You're correct trump world is busily enacting voter disenfranchisement / suppressions laws thanks to the Supreme Court manipulation by Republicans:

“What is tragic here is that the Court has (yet again) rewritten — in order to weaken — a statute that stands as a monument to America’s greatness, and protects against its basest impulses,” Kagan wrote. “What is tragic is that the Court has damaged a statute designed to bring about ‘the end of discrimination in voting.

Not one of trump's claims have been proven in a Court of law. Even now trump and Co repeat the 'big lie'. However, factually trump was a loser in the 2020 elections.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/07/donald-trump-is-a-loser-434103

trump is an anti democratic, pathological liar, a long term disciple of Bannon. If it were not for Pence, trump would have overturned the Constitution and led the US into an abyss, As per the OP I posted, trump is a political criminal, along with his enablers, whose comeuppance is hopefully not too far away, in conjunction with criminal prosecution in New York. 

Yours is rather a rant more than a reply. Does the possibility of 50k illegal votes in one county in Arizona not worry you?

If there has been manipulaion of the Supreme Court by the Republicans they haven'been very successful. Courts across the USA have not allowed any meaningful hearings of these election complaints. Hopefully, at least some of the truth will eventually surface so that the real anti-democratic liars may be exposed.

[Smithydog]

Does anyone have some actual comments about the Topic?

The patience of the Moderators is wearing very thin. Too many topics are being hijacked by clear widely ideologically opposite parties intent on simply projecting their message, usually in an off-topic way.

If you want to get a message across, at least have the courtesy for other members who may be interested in the opposing views, to take a moment to tie it into the question posed.

Moderator

[Convert54]

46 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Which Joe Biden has done with his total unconditional surrender to the Taliban, not only did failed and disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan enlarged Taliban control to the entire country but also infused the Taliban with nearly $1 Billion in US military equipment and pallets of cash

https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1430851901239795712?s=20

Except from the US initial success in 2001 to Joe Biden total unconditional surrender to the Taliban it was way better:

1. Afghanistan was able to send their own athletes to participate in the Olympics after the successful toppling of the Taliban. Now because of Joe Biden they can’t do that! So much so that their all-girl soccer captain (who was out of the country when Joe Biden surrendered Afghanistan) told her fellow players to burn their jerseys, delete their facebook and Instagram accounts to avoid Taliban retaliation. 

2. Girls were able to attend school. And not just elementary school but middle school, high school and even college! And after college they could work if they wanted to! The most highly rated news channel in Afghanistan was hosted by a female news anchor!

3. Women joined the police force! Become mayors and governors which plenty were elected. Women even became representative leaders in national politics. 

4. Afghans watched movies, played music and even enjoyed participating in break dancing competitions. 
 

And because of Joe Bidens total unconditional surrender to the Taliban, all of the gains won will be washed away. 

And we did and we also freed Afghanistan from the terror known as the Taliban. So much so that:

1. Afghans democratically elected 2 presidents. They can’t do that no more because of Joe Biden

2. Afghans elected female mayors, governors and legislatures. But because of Joe Biden most were captured and killed or fled the country

3. Women went to school but not anymore. They went to school under Bush, under Obama and under Trump, guess who they can’t do that under

4. Afghans enjoyed their own music and foreign music. Making music videos incorporating both styles which was popular among the Afghan youth. 

5. Watch Afghan-made films or even foreign films in the heart of Kabul, the old Taliban capital. 

6. They could view their own sports teams duke it out in their stadiums without having to watch weekly executions. 
 

Except their base of operations were in Afghanistan courtesy of the Taliban. Now under Joe Biden, the Taliban and Al-awards alliance is back. Now that the Taliban has a new country expect more terrorist attacks in the near future. Just like when they sent a suicide bomber to kill 13 American soldiers. 

The US never invaded a country to secure the rights of women. But because of the US successes under Bush, the successes under Obama and the successes under Biden, women enjoyed more rights than they did before the US liberation of Afghanistan. And because of Joe Biden those rights will be vaporized akin to how he vaporized 7 children as they greeted their father who was tired after delivering water to poor Afghans. 
 

I never knew that women going to school can be reduced to mere “emotive appeals”

I never knew that Afghan children born after the fall of the Taliban, children who not the horrors of their elders, will be subjugated to the same horrors as mere “emotive appeals”

I never knew that the Taliban kidnapping children as young as 12 to be wives and sex slaves are nothing more than mere “emotive appeals”

Who knew that the 50,000 Afghan national security forces who died defending their country are nothing more than mere “emotive appeals”

Who knew that Zaki Anwari’s fear of Taliban rule would cause him to cling to the side of a US cargo plane and falling hundreds of feet to his death was an “emotive appeal”

And youre absolutely correct! Afghanistan, thanks to Joe Biden, will never enjoy the freedoms and successes that they felt under Bush, under Obama and under Trump. For the past 20 years was waaay better exponentially better than what they will face in the years to come. You can thank Joe Biden for that

So you believe that if the Trump had not failed to continue the international isolation of the US in his bid to gain a second term that the bogus "war" in Afghanistan would have been perpetuated despite his original stated commitment to withdraw from Afghanistan?

You present emotive criticsms of zero justification in the overall picture. How many duped allied nations have lost people in the glorious inflictions of the US  over the decades? How many innocent Afghanis  were victim to the insidious and unjustifiable atrocities  for pure(off duty)  pleasure? Quote me justification of that !!!! In the interest of "installing"  yet another  acquiesant  puppet state !

I am close to becoming impolite in the face  of IMO your  naive and seemingly uninformed view of the Afghani reality ! And it is not exclusive to US involvements !

 

[Convert54]

3 hours ago, Fluke said:

Biden got told that Kabul will probably fall quite soon after the USA had left Afghanistan and he dismissed that as lies and Kabul fell a few days after

Probably true. But was he told that due to complete and utter  failures to gain accurate intelligence of the fact the Taliban were already enmasse in attendance in Kabul? Or that if the US withdrew Kabul would fall because the entire 20 years of occupation had  failed to instill or install a compliant or stable Government or armed forces capable of sustaining it? My guess is the latter was long conceded regardless of who was President ! Proven in reality by the sad final outcome.

[9S_]

30 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

So you believe that if the Trump had not failed to continue the international isolation of the US in his bid to gain a second term that the bogus "war" in Afghanistan would have been perpetuated despite his original stated commitment to withdraw from Afghanistan?

Withdrawal from Afghanistan does not include total unconditional surrender to the Taliban. 

The fact that South Vietnam did not fall well after the US withdrawal proves you can withdraw without total unconditional surrender! The South Vietnamese were backed by the US until Joe Biden came along. 

30 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

You present emotive criticsms of zero justification in the overall picture

No I gave you historical contrast and historic Afghan achievements in the past 20 years. Will Afghans be better off tomorrow than they were at minimum 3 months ago? 

You have failed to disprove any of my examples rather you just broadly reduced it “emotive criticisms” without a proper argument. Do better next time. 

30 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

How many duped allied nations have lost people in the glorious inflictions of the US  over the decades? How many innocent Afghanis  were victim to the insidious and unjustifiable atrocities  for pure(off duty)  pleasure

Easy revenge for 9/11 and a free democrat Afghanistan. Which do you think people prefer? The Afghanistan under Bush, Obama and Trump or the Afghanistan under Biden?

I’ll give you a hint, there’s a reason why Afghan mothers threw their infants across barbed wire into the hands of American soldiers

There’s a reason why you had people cling to US cargo planes as they took off

There’s a reason why Afghans waded into knee deep sewage water begging for the US to take them into the airport

Theres a reason why the I Roam Alone girls Afghan interpreter requested her name and photo to be blasted on social media

Theres a reason why Bidens interpreter, who rescued Biden when his plane malfunctioned in the Afghan wilderness, put forth his name and face in western media

Theres a reason why so many Afghans risked being shot at the Taliban as they trekked towards the airport

Theres a reason why you saw Afghan girls screaming at American soldiers outside of Kabul Airport: “THE TALIBAN IS COMING HERE PLEASE THE TALIBAN”

Theres a reason why Afghan allies who helped us are hiding from the Taliban

Theres a reason why the Afghan girls soccer captain told her fellow teammates to burn their jerseys, delete their facebooks and instagram accounts

Theres a reason why thousands of Afghans fled across the Afghan border

Theres a reason why thousands of Afghans clung to desperate hope waiting outside Kabul airport

30 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

naive and seemingly uninformed view of the Afghani reality

Naive and seemingly uninformed view of the Afghani reality? First of all Afghani is their currency, they’re called Afghans. Are you sure you know the reality?

 Last year Dec 30 2020 were Afghans better off that day compared to Jan 1 2001?

Today are Afghans better off compared to Def 30 2020?

Lets look in the future will Afghans be better off than Dec 30 2020?

[9S_]

6 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Or that if the US withdrew Kabul would fall because the entire 20 years of occupation had  failed to instill or install a compliant or stable Government or armed forces capable of sustaining it

Then how did 50,000 Afghan soldiers died defending their country?

You even had British MP roundly denounce Joe Bidens rhetoric which is akin to your claims. They roundly denounced him because they had fought and witnessed the tenacity of the Afghan National Army in the face of the Taliban. 

7 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

My guess is the latter was long conceded regardless of who was President ! Proven in reality by the sad final outcome.

No it’s because of Joe Biden. Afghanistan did not fall under Bush. The Taliban did not gain more ground than they did when we first invaded in 2001 under Obama. The Taliban didn’t gain more advanced weaponry than when we first invaded in 2001 under Trump. 
 

They gained more territory and weaponry under Biden. 
 

Bush wanted to withdraw, but his military, pentagon, intelligence  and diplomatic advisors told him not to. Bush listened. 

Obama wanted to withdraw, but his military, pentagon, intelligence and diplomatic advisors told him not to. Obama listened. 

Trump wanted to withdraw, but his military, pentagon, intelligence and diplomatic advisors told him not to. Trump listened.

Biden did not listen to his military advisors, did not listen to his pentagon advisors, did not listen to his intelligence advisors and did not listen to his diplomatic advisors. The result? Total unconditional surrender to the Taliban. 

[Convert54]

3 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Withdrawal from Afghanistan does not include total unconditional surrender to the Taliban. 

The fact that South Vietnam did not fall well after the US withdrawal proves you can withdraw without total unconditional surrender! The South Vietnamese were backed by the US until Joe Biden came along. 

No I gave you historical contrast and historic Afghan achievements in the past 20 years. Will Afghans be better off tomorrow than they were at minimum 3 months ago? 

You have failed to disprove any of my examples rather you just broadly reduced it “emotive criticisms” without a proper argument. Do better next time. 

Easy revenge for 9/11 and a free democrat Afghanistan. Which do you think people prefer? The Afghanistan under Bush, Obama and Trump or the Afghanistan under Biden?

I’ll give you a hint, there’s a reason why Afghan mothers threw their infants across barbed wire into the hands of American soldiers

There’s a reason why you had people cling to US cargo planes as they took off

There’s a reason why Afghans waded into knee deep sewage water begging for the US to take them into the airport

Theres a reason why the I Roam Alone girls Afghan interpreter requested her name and photo to be blasted on social media

Theres a reason why so many Afghans risked being shot at the Taliban as they trekked towards the airport

Theres a reason why you saw Afghan girls screaming at American soldiers outside of Kabul Airport: “THE TALIBAN IS COMING HERE PLEASE THE TALIBAN”

Theres a reason why Afghan allies who helped us are hiding from the Taliban

Theres a reason why the Afghan girls soccer captain told her fellow teammates to burn their jerseys, delete their facebooks and instagram accounts

Theres a reason why thousands of Afghans fled across the Afghan border

Theres a reason why thousands of Afghans clung to desperate hope waiting outside Kabul airport

Naive and seemingly uninformed view of the Afghani reality? First of all Afghani is their currency, they’re called Afghans. Are you sure you know the reality?

 Last year Dec 30 2020 were Afghans better off that day compared to Jan 1 2001?

Today are Afghans better off compared to Def 30 2020?

Lets look in the future will Afghans be better off than Dec 30 2020?

Perhaps once more you need  check history. Was it the US  who actually helped rebuild Vietnam post that failed US involvement? Has the US funded the UXD location of ordinance in Laos dropped in a "secret " daily bombing campaign that in $ dollars exceeds in total anything provided in "clean up"?https://www.history.com/news/laos-most-bombed-country-vietnam-war

And now the US threatens  to starve Afghanistan for the insult of their own  failure! So much for humanitarian concern!

[Convert54]

10 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Then how did 50,000 Afghan soldiers died defending their country?

You even had British MP roundly denounce Joe Bidens rhetoric which is akin to your claims. They roundly denounced him because they had fought and witnessed the tenacity of the Afghan National Army in the face of the Taliban. 

No it’s because of Joe Biden. Afghanistan did not fall under Bush. The Taliban did not gain more ground than they did when we first invaded in 2001 under Obama. The Taliban didn’t gain more advanced weaponry than when we first invaded in 2001 under Trump. 
 

They gained more territory and weaponry under Biden. 
 

Bush wanted to withdraw, but his military, pentagon, intelligence  and diplomatic advisors told him not to. Bush listened. 

Obama wanted to withdraw, but his military, pentagon, intelligence and diplomatic advisors told him not to. Obama listened. 

Trump wanted to withdraw, but his military, pentagon, intelligence and diplomatic advisors told him not to. Trump listened.

Biden did not listen to his military advisors, did not listen to his pentagon advisors, did not listen to his intelligence advisors and did not listen to his diplomatic advisors. The result? Total unconditional surrender to the Taliban. 

Never mind the points of debate. Tell me of any success of any invading nation in Afghanistan . Ever!

[Convert54]

Just now, Convert54 said:

Never mind the points of debate. Tell me of any success of any invading nation in Afghanistan . Ever!

Or could it be said 50,000 thousand Afghani's died as canon fodder on behalf of the intent of the US?