Should the unvaccinated be discriminated against when Thailand reopens?

[palooka]

The vaccinated can still get Covid.

The unvaccinated can get Covid. 
Covid doesn't choose who to infect. The unvaccinated probably do not pose a risk to the vaccinated population only to themselves and their own chances of survival if they contract the disease. They do impose a possible undue burden on the health facilities but after reopeniing the vaccinated may do the same. No one knows.

Transmission of Covid from an unvaccinated person is no different to Covid transmitted from a Asymtomatic vaccinated person.

So why all this discrimination against anti vax people?

[BraveNewFahrenheit]

It is about dividing people. It is about power and control. Covid makes a lot more sense when you start to view it as a tool of control for those in power.

[palooka]

Covid doesn't discriminate, rich or poor, powerful, powerless, old or young it has killed many from all these types of people. Yes the rich and powerful can demand and get better medical treatment but even with the best treatment money can buy some still die. Think this would be a very risky scenario for the powerful.

[ExpatPattaya]

Unvaccinated take up hospital beds, vaccinated do not.  You need a necessary heart or limb surgery and find your favorite, local hospital cannot do because ICU filled with Covidiots. 

That is why we discriminate against those who continue to believe in idiotic conspiracy theories

[MrStretch]

Unvaccinated people pose a greater risk to the general population and the availability of health services, as ExpatPattaya stated.  That reason alone is enough for their movements and interactions with others to be restricted.

"Vaccinated people are not as likely to spread the coronavirus as the unvaccinated. Even in the United States, where more than half of the population is fully vaccinated, the unvaccinated are responsible for the overwhelming majority of transmission.

To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus. And vaccinated people are far less likely to have the coronavirus—period."

- Craig Spencer is an emergency-medicine physician and director of global health in emergency medicine at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/

[palooka]

23 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

Unvaccinated people pose a greater risk to the general population and the availability of health services, as ExpatPattaya stated.  That reason alone is enough for their movements and interactions with others to be restricted.

"Vaccinated people are not as likely to spread the coronavirus as the unvaccinated. Even in the United States, where more than half of the population is fully vaccinated, the unvaccinated are responsible for the overwhelming majority of transmission.

To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus. And vaccinated people are far less likely to have the coronavirus—period."

- Craig Spencer is an emergency-medicine physician and director of global health in emergency medicine at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/

An outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts—in which 74 percent of the 469 cases were in the fully vaccinated—forced the CDC to update its mask guidance and issue a sad and sobering warning: Vaccinated people infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant can be just as contagious as unvaccinated people.

Extract from the same article from the same author

[palooka]

32 minutes ago, ExpatPattaya said:

Unvaccinated take up hospital beds, vaccinated do not.  You need a necessary heart or limb surgery and find your favorite, local hospital cannot do because ICU filled with Covidiots. 

That is why we discriminate against those who continue to believe in idiotic conspiracy theories

Vaccinated can take up those same beds, vaccinated can still get Covid and some sadly have not survived.

Democracy says they have the right to be unvaccinated and not be discrimated against for their choice, some unvaccinated have naively been led down the garden path by idiots using them for their own agendas, but does two wrongs make a right?

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

34 minutes ago, palooka said:

Democracy says they have the right to be unvaccinated

No it doesn’t … democracy is governance … nothing about what rights you have.

[riclag]

40 minutes ago, palooka said:

An outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts—in which 74 percent of the 469 cases were in the fully vaccinated—forced the CDC to update its mask guidance and issue a sad and sobering warning: Vaccinated people infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant can be just as contagious as unvaccinated people.

Extract from the same article from the same author

The vaxers narrative has lost its strength since the science deemed them just as capable of the spread of the poison! 
That being said ,it is very discriminatory to force people to make a choice ,especially through Govt bureaucrats and their influence on the private sector

[palooka]

 

democracy

[dɪˈmɒkrəsi]

 

NOUN

1. a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

   "a system of parliamentary democracy"

   synonyms:

   representative government · elective government · constitutional government · popular government · self-government · government by the people · autonomy · republic · commonwealth

   • a state governed under a system of democracy.
     "a multiparty democracy"
   • control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
     "the intended extension of industrial democracy"
   • the practice or principles of social equality.
     "demands for greater democracy"
     synonyms:

     independence · self-government · self-determination · self-legislation · self rule · home rule · sovereignty · autonomy · autarky · self-sufficiency · individualism · separation · non-alignment · emancipation · enfranchisement · manumission

      

     Maybe you can see the small print #the practice or principles of social equality

 

[vlad]

It was only a matter of time that favorite word from our American friends was used " Democracy "  which part don't you understand Palooka ? the part that if your vaccinated you probably do not take a hospital bed that could be used by someone on Dialysis or someone's Democratic right to to take that bed and deny a covid patient it. 

[MrStretch]

1 hour ago, palooka said:

An outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts—in which 74 percent of the 469 cases were in the fully vaccinated—forced the CDC to update its mask guidance and issue a sad and sobering warning: Vaccinated people infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant can be just as contagious as unvaccinated people.

Extract from the same article from the same author

And the rest of the article...if you are going to go, go all the way.

 

"In the aftermath of the Provincetown announcement, many who had gotten their shots were confused about what the news meant for them, especially when headlines seemed to imply that vaccinated individuals are as likely to contract and transmit COVID-19 as the unvaccinated. But this framing missed the single most important factor in spreading the coronavirus: To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus. And vaccinated people are far less likely to have the coronavirus—period. If this was mentioned at all, it was treated as an afterthought.

Despite concern about waning immunity, vaccines provide the best protection against infection. And if someone isn’t infected, they can’t spread the coronavirus. It’s truly that simple. Additionally, for those instances of a vaccinated person getting a breakthrough case, yes, they can be as infectious as an unvaccinated person. But they are likely contagious for a shorter period of time when compared with the unvaccinated, and they may harbor less infectious virus overall."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/

 

[palooka]

So all vaccinated shall automatically forefit the right to that medical bed if they get infected with covid, as someone on Dialysis, or what ever may need it.

Covid doesn't pick who is vaccinated and who is not.

When you are sick and dying be it Covid or Dialysis, vaccinated or unvaccinated all have the right to equal treatment.  Or do you propose that we refuse the unvaccinated medical treatment because they made a choice in life.

Sorry that was in reply to vlad@

Edited September 27, 2021 by palooka

[palooka]

15 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

And the rest of the article...if you are going to go, go all the way.

"In the aftermath of the Provincetown announcement, many who had gotten their shots were confused about what the news meant for them, especially when headlines seemed to imply that vaccinated individuals are as likely to contract and transmit COVID-19 as the unvaccinated. But this framing missed the single most important factor in spreading the coronavirus: To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus. And vaccinated people are far less likely to have the coronavirus—period. If this was mentioned at all, it was treated as an afterthought.

Despite concern about waning immunity, vaccines provide the best protection against infection. And if someone isn’t infected, they can’t spread the coronavirus. It’s truly that simple. Additionally, for those instances of a vaccinated person getting a breakthrough case, yes, they can be as infectious as an unvaccinated person. But they are likely contagious for a shorter period of time when compared with the unvaccinated, and they may harbor less infectious virus overall."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/

The whole article makes statements for and against then seems to back track on some of them, not a straight forward read, time will tell.

[PBS]

3 hours ago, palooka said:

So why all this discrimination against anti vax people?

So far as I'm aware no government has enacted legislation to discriminate against anti vaxxers. On the other hand I say anti vaxxers are acting against the best interest of the majority by slowing down the fully vaccinated percentages to meet government targets to open up the economy and ease restrictions on movement and so on. Additionally the majority of deaths currently from Covid in Western countries is within the anti vaxxed community and transmission which creates pressure on health services and delays access to medical services for other serious illnesses. IMO anti vaxxers are selfish people standing on political soap boxes; it is well worth asking why so many are aligned to politics to the right of centre i.e. in fact representing anti democratic tendencies.

[Faraday]

Should we discriminate against people who don't take adequate precautions when having sex, & then get Hiv/aids?

 

[Bob20]

You should make the clear distinction between wilfully unvaccinated people and unvaccinated people who are still waiting for their jab through no fault of their own.

Here in Thailand plenty of people have not had a chance to get jabbed due to shortages and mismanagement.

So it's easy.

No, there should be no discrimination against unvaccinated people.

The ones that refuse the jabs can take their own chances. However, I wish they would then not complain if Covid struck, like so many who change their view once it's clear they gambled and lost.

But opening up should at least wait until the ones that WANT the vaccine have had their chance to be vaccinated and protected. They should not have to take the extra risk of infection with serious consequences caused by the roll-out delays.

[palooka]

3 hours ago, PBS said:

So far as I'm aware no government has enacted legislation to discriminate against anti vaxxers. On the other hand I say anti vaxxers are acting against the best interest of the majority by slowing down the fully vaccinated percentages to meet government targets to open up the economy and ease restrictions on movement and so on. Additionally the majority of deaths currently from Covid in Western countries is within the anti vaxxed community and transmission which creates pressure on health services and delays access to medical services for other serious illnesses. IMO anti vaxxers are selfish people standing on political soap boxes; it is well worth asking why so many are aligned to politics to the right of centre i.e. in fact representing anti democratic tendencies.

Many Govt are putting in place rules of flying no vax no fly already. Thailand  was one of the leaders in this area with their sandbox, not really openly legislating with law just using 3rd parties like airlines to do the dirty work.

Many of the not vaccinated in western countrys are unable to get vax as yet, due to locations and supply limits yet will be discriminated against when they decide to open up.

[Rain]

6 hours ago, palooka said:

Covid doesn't discriminate, rich or poor, powerful, powerless, old or young it has killed many from all these types of people. Yes the rich and powerful can demand and get better medical treatment but even with the best treatment money can buy some still die. Think this would be a very risky scenario for the powerful.

And it's not political. Just as nature intended.

You might keep that in mind. 

Actually, viruses probably are much more connected and intelligent than many of our kind.

[palooka]

3 hours ago, Bob20 said:

You should make the clear distinction between wilfully unvaccinated people and unvaccinated people who are still waiting for their jab through no fault of their own.

Here in Thailand plenty of people have not had a chance to get jabbed due to shortages and mismanagement.

So it's easy.

No, there should be no discrimination against unvaccinated people.

The ones that refuse the jabs can take their own chances. However, I wish they would then not complain if Covid struck, like so many who change their view once it's clear they gambled and lost.

But opening up should at least wait until the ones that WANT the vaccine have had their chance to be vaccinated and protected. They should not have to take the extra risk of infection with serious consequences caused by the roll-out delays.

Wilfully unvaxed and waiting unvaxed will be discriminated against.  Go to an airline and say I want a holiday in Thailand but no vax, do you think you'll get a ticket and ok to fly?

Big business and Govt with mounting debts are not going to wait for everyone that wants vax to get it. Money runs the world, govt and big business and to put it bluntly -they don't care-.  Govt and big business are past the caring if a few more die because of no vax, their wallets are hurting big time.

[birdman]

4 hours ago, riclag said:

That being said ,it is very discriminatory to force people to make a choice ,especially through Govt bureaucrats and their influence on the private sector

Similar choices are being forced upon people already,why are people so against being vaccinated against Covid?

[Bob20]

3 minutes ago, palooka said:

Wilfully unvaxed and waiting unvxed will be discriminated against.  Go to an airline and say I want a holiday in Thailand but no vax, do you think you'll get a ticket and ok to fly?

Big business and Govt with mounting debts are not going to wait for everyone that wants vax to get it. Money runs the world, govt and big business and to put it bluntly -they don't care-.  Govt and big business are past the caring if a few more die because of no vax, their wallets are hurting big time.

The reasons you give are clear and I agree with you.

That doesn't mean that I agree with government and big business that financial reasons should come before thousands of lives.

In 14 months we had 80 deaths in Thailand and very strict measures were taken.

The last 4-5 months we had 15000+ deaths and now that's reason to relax?

They need to stop waffling and get jabbing. The sooner everyone who wants it gets vaccinated, the sooner the country can open up.

Until then, the situation is much worse than last year with more deaths per day than we had in 14 months. The ones waiting for their jab deserve our cooperation without exposing them to more risk.

[PBS]

40 minutes ago, palooka said:

Many Govt are putting in place rules of flying no vax no fly already. Thailand  was one of the leaders in this area with their sandbox, not really openly legislating with law just using 3rd parties like airlines to do the dirty work.

Many of the not vaccinated in western countrys are unable to get vax as yet, due to locations and supply limits yet will be discriminated against when they decide to open up.

I have to say, IMO, at this stage of the Covid pandemic it would be the utmost stupidity for any government / airline to permit international travel for non fully vaccinated passengers. It has been proven quarantine for international travellers has been a failure as a prevention tool. Just look at the  spread of the Delta version of Covid has created in just about every country in the world. Once nations have achieved 80% of population as fully vaccinated at that time international travel based upon the bubble policy will be available, but travel restrictions for non vaccinated, likely imposed by airlines for legal risk minimisation concerning "duty of care".

Seems to me more than a few people have forgotten they would be refused entry to some countries if they didn't have certain vaccinations with vaccination certification. Why the current environment should be any different I do not know. IATA and I believe SITA are working with international carriers for standards for electronic vaccination passports for worldwide use. e.g.

https://www.iata.org/en/youandiata/travelers/iata-travel-pass-for-travelers/

 

[palooka]

43 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

The reasons you give are clear and I agree with you.

That doesn't mean that I agree with government and big business that financial reasons should come before thousands of lives.

In 14 months we had 80 deaths in Thailand and very strict measures were taken.

The last 4-5 months we had 15000+ deaths and now that's reason to relax?

They need to stop waffling and get jabbing. The sooner everyone who wants it gets vaccinated, the sooner the country can open up.

Until then, the situation is much worse than last year with more deaths per day than we had in 14 months. The ones waiting for their jab deserve our cooperation without exposing them to more risk.

Over her in the East they are jabbing as fast as they can with clinics in temples and govt offices and 2 shot turn around of Sinovac in two weeks. Sinovac..... I know, but it is what they have and anything, hopefully is better than nothing.

The Govt dropped the ball Song Krong this year, be it due to big business pressure or perceived pressure, probably lack of money and now thousands have paid with their lives.

As for not exposing the unvaxed who want vax to risk, the big kids who run things have one thing in mind and that is baht coming their way and sadly more deaths don't enter the equation.

[Bob20]

1 minute ago, palooka said:

Over her in the East they are jabbing as fast as they can with clinics in temples and govt offices and 2 shot turn around of Sinovac in two weeks. Sinovac..... I know, but it is what they have and anything, hopefully is better than nothing.

The Govt dropped the ball Song Krong this year, be it due to big business pressure or perceived pressure, probably lack of money and now thousands have paid with their lives.

As for not exposing the unvaxed who want vax to risk, the big kids who run things have one thing in mind and that is baht coming their way and sadly more deaths don't enter the equation.

Again, agreed. But that doesn't stop me from explaining to people why it's the wrong way to go about it.

I'm happy that they're jabbing as fast as they can where you are, but I think you'll find it's now 1*Sinovac+1*AZ as that's supposed to be nationwide policy since about a week.

Here in CM they've changed all the signs to correctly reflect that, even though the locations are all empty as the 29.000 doses we received last week were jabbed in no time. That makes me suspicious about the claims of doses available too...