News Forum - Phuket begins new subdermal injection method for vaccines

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Smithydog said:

Personally, I would prefer any new method being subject to a mass clinical trial with the proper scientific methods before any possibly unqualified Government official suddenly decides "let's do it!". Too often through this Pandemic we have seen suggested treatments etc put forward without the same level of scientific study that other items have been subjected to. Too often this has been demanded by unqualified people that the only interest they have is a political agenda.

In my opinion, we have a Government who has seemingly pushed themselves into a corner with their multiple and contradictory vaccination and Covid-19 announcements. Who is prioritised this week or even day? What colour scheme are we using now for Zones and what does it mean? Who can do what?

This has now resulted in another likely "Face-saving" exercise. Use of this injection method could be used to boost claimed vaccination numbers. It is speculation, however personally I find it hard to think otherwise based on their past history.

I hope it works. No country should think it has the licence to be the only country to think up new ideas. Too often we wrongly look down in scorn and criticise because of our own pre-conceived ideas of what should be.

In science, perhaps that too often this can be caused by simple jealousy that we didn't think of it ourselves!

Smithydog

Agreed, 1,000% - I too hope it works, but my biggest reason to think that unlikely is that I find it hard to believe that it wasn't trialled in the very early stage of vaccine development, alongside the size of the dose and the concentration, which would have been standard practice by all manufacturers and developers.

I was a simple medic, by training rather than experience so my expertise is minimal, but what I find most disappointing and worrying in all this is that Astra Zeneca haven't come out with any sort of public statement on this - not confirming it as acceptable use, not confirming it as an approved trial - literally nothing.

The biggest danger, in my view, isn't that it won't work which will mean a million wasted doses and millions of lives put at risk - particularly health workers and nurses, as they were the first to get a double dose of Sinovac - but that those waiting to be vaccinated will be put off as they'll be worried that instead of getting the 1 x Sinovac then 1 x AZ they were expecting they'll get 1 x Sinovac then 1/5 x AZ.

That may or may not be the plan or a proposal, but that's the rumour already trending on social media, and trust in the Government, CCSA, and unfairly even the medical profession has to be at an all time low.

 

 

[Stonker]

19 hours ago, Thaiger said:

200,000 residents and people living in Phuket will receive the first round of subdermal vaccines, followed by a second round for foreign residents and migrant workers.

Interesting.

If the "second round" is 200,000 (like the first) that indicates that over half those who've had two vaccine doses on Phuket (reportedly a total of 389,163 so far) had two doses of Sinovac.

If correct, that could explain why there are now so many cases of Covid on anthrax island.

[Convert54]

For those who have some patience, and a willing capacity perhaps this link will provide a little more to current comprehension of "things".

https://onlinelearning.hms.harvard.edu/hmx/immunity/

[Convert54]

20 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

For those who have some patience, and a willing capacity perhaps this link will provide a little more to current comprehension of "things".

https://onlinelearning.hms.harvard.edu/hmx/immunity/

In my personal comprehension and understanding of this overview it also indicates to me a reason for the variability of both initial and longer term efficacy of vaccines.

The "traditional" vaccines that use a deactivated  pathogen to initiate an immune response is somewhat sensitive to response to the "original" form of pathogen.

Vaccines that utilize a "carrier"promote initial reactivity while also presenting a specific component of a target pathogen but the immune system is initiated to the entirety of it and thus the entirety of the immune system.

mRNA vaccines promote the production of a singular component (protein spike) which initiates the last stage defences of the immune system which although demonstrably effective on present pathogens has no inherent "memory" which could have been acquired if that had not been circumnavigated by bypassing the totality of immune response.

It is that consideration that leads me to wonder if that is why the mRNA vaccines have been shown to have limited lasting efficacy because there is an unknown factor of immune systems where it is the progressive levels of response that infers a longer lasting defence and specifically to mutations?

Until such time as the mechanism for dangerous pathogens to invade cells causing illness is able to be prevented we and other life forms will remain vulnerable. Natural selection maybe?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob20]

Just now, Convert54 said:

Until such time as the mechanism for dangerous pathogens to invade cells causing illness is able to be prevented we and other life forms will remain vulnerable. Natural selection maybe?

It's commendable that you read up, but you're not going to be a virologist from reading on the internet.

Simply take this into consideration:

-It's a relatively new vaccine

-Thailand did already repeatedly not stick to the recommended period between two jabs (not approved by the manufacturer, as it was not researched and trialled) because of vaccine shortages.

-Thailand started to mix and match AZ after administering Sinovac (they are both different types of vaccines, viral vector vs inactivated virus) and the mix is not approved by the manufacturers, but claimed as "safe" because of limited research in Thailand. Frankly, it was also done because of vaccine shortages. 

-Thailand now wants to start giving boosters subcutaneously, after an incredibly small test during at most one month in one hospital, with only 20% of the usual dose. No long term effects or adverse effects are known, and neither do we know whether the effect that they claim it has will last. And with 152.9m vaccine doses arriving this year (as claimed by the government) there should be no need to skimp on the dose or trial another way of administering. 

What is done here constitutes extra risk, after already giving the population inferior Sinovac followed by AZ and now providing the booster in a way that nobody knows any long-term effects of.

For anyone wanting to travel, this mix and match cocktail is likely not accepted anywhere outside Thailand.

And then think one step ahead... The government claims to have bought 30m doses Pfizer for boosters for next year. Sinovac+AZ+Pfizer? Intramuscular? Subcutaneous? With ice and lemon and a small umbrella?

[Stonker]

31 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

 

... that leads me to wonder if that is why the mRNA vaccines have been shown to have limited lasting efficacy because there is an unknown factor of immune systems where it is the progressive levels of response that infers a longer lasting defence and specifically to mutations?

 

Actually the recent studies in the UK and Israel show that the mRNA vaccines have longer lasting efficacy against death and serious illness than any of the others, just not as much efficacy against minor symptoms like a bad cold. 

I can live with that.

[Convert54]

12 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Actually the recent studies in the UK and Israel show that the mRNA vaccines have longer lasting efficacy against death and serious illness than any of the others, just not as much efficacy against minor symptoms like a bad cold. 

I can live with that.

What variety of vaccine was administered in Israel overall on which to base that claim?

[Convert54]

24 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

It's commendable that you read up, but you're not going to be a virologist from reading on the internet.

Simply take this into consideration:

-It's a relatively new vaccine

-Thailand did already repeatedly not stick to the recommended period between two jabs (not approved by the manufacturer, as it was not researched and trialled) because of vaccine shortages.

-Thailand started to mix and match AZ after administering Sinovac (they are both different types of vaccines, viral vector vs inactivated virus) and the mix is not approved by the manufacturers, but claimed as "safe" because of limited research in Thailand. Frankly, it was also done because of vaccine shortages. 

-Thailand now wants to start giving boosters subcutaneously, after an incredibly small test during at most one month in one hospital, with only 20% of the usual dose. No long term effects or adverse effects are known, and neither do we know whether the effect that they claim it has will last. And with 152.9m vaccine doses arriving this year (as claimed by the government) there should be no need to skimp on the dose or trial another way of administering. 

What is done here constitutes extra risk, after already giving the population inferior Sinovac followed by AZ and now providing the booster in a way that nobody knows any long-term effects of.

For anyone wanting to travel, this mix and match cocktail is likely not accepted anywhere outside Thailand.

And then think one step ahead... The government claims to have bought 30m doses Pfizer for boosters for next year. Sinovac+AZ+Pfizer? Intramuscular? Subcutaneous? With ice and lemon and a small umbrella?

I do not expect to gain status as a virologist by "reading up".

Are you a virologist?

Do you believe that the Thai authorities consider it important that international opinion is concerned about  internal administration of  vaccines to a majority who  have no capacity to depart even temporarily to a location at which to  receive conformed process while at the same time perhaps willing to subject that same  majority to a possible viable alternative although experimental booster shot? No international interest in that ?????  Aha!

One thought ahead?  The moment is now or not? Politically and pandemicaly.

Lemon and umbrellas as in cocktails? Yeah !  Girls luv em . Pink ice is a clincher.

 

 

 

 

[Stonker]

21 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

What variety of vaccine was administered in Israel overall on which to base that claim?

Pfizer.

The studies in the UK, by NHE, and independently in Israel, are pretty extensive and pretty conclusive, but it all depends on how you cherry-pick the stats: cases, or hospitalizations and deaths.

[Bob20]

7 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

I do not expect to gain status as a virologist by "reading up".

Are you a virologist?

Do you believe that the Thai authorities consider it important that international opinion is concerned about  internal administration of  vaccines to a majority who  have no capacity to depart even temporarily to a location at which to  receive conformed process while at the same time perhaps willing to subject that same  majority to a possible viable alternative although experimental booster shot? No international interest in that ?????  Aha!

One thought ahead?  The moment is now or not? Politically and pandemicaly.

Lemon and umbrellas as in cocktails? Yeah !  Girls luv em . Pink ice is a clincher.

You appear to have missed the three main points that are seriously to the Thais disadvantage, and just looked at the fringe comments.

Keep reading

[Convert54]

1 minute ago, Bob20 said:

You appear to have missed the three main points that are seriously to the Thais disadvantage, and just looked at the fringe comments.

Keep reading

Not really. I am also not a salesman

[Stonker]

54 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

It's commendable that you read up, but you're not going to be a virologist from reading on the internet.

That much, at least, is more than evident from your comments, @Bob20.

57 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Thailand did already repeatedly not stick to the recommended period between two jabs (not approved by the manufacturer, as it was not researched and trialled) because of vaccine shortages.

As did a number of other countries, including the UK.

Fortuitously, purely by good fortune, it proved to be the right choice and to be more effective than the manufacturers' original recommendations.

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

Thailand started to mix and match AZ after administering Sinovac (they are both different types of vaccines, viral vector vs inactivated virus) and the mix is not approved by the manufacturers, but claimed as "safe" because of limited research in Thailand. 

No mixing and matching has been approved by any of the manufacturers as yet, but there has been a lot of research that has had widespread national and international approval on  mixing all types of vaccines, including mRNA. The idea that it was only  "claimed as "safe" because of limited research in Thailand" is demonstrably untrue.

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

Frankly, it was also done because of vaccine shortages

Quite possibly, as was the increased gap between doses, but in this case it's more likely that it was to maximise resources to make the most of what they had rather than that it was all that was available, as there were other (worse) options.

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

 And with 152.9m vaccine doses arriving this year (as claimed by the government) there should be no need to skimp on the dose or trial another way of administering. 

Since it's not publicly known when the remaining doses will arrive (which could be in up to three months time) or what they are (and some at least are Sinovac and Sinopharm), with the bulk of Pfizer going to students in the next two months, and the ongoing pressure to vaccinate so restrictions can be lifted there are actually good arguments for doing the trial (which is what it is).

I don't agree with it, at all, and I particularly disagree with the way it's being done, but a trial of some sort is absolutely justifiable.

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

For anyone wanting to travel, this mix and match cocktail is likely not accepted anywhere outside Thailand.

As an increasing number of countries now accept mixed vaccines, that will depend on who accepts Sinovac, little else.

I agree with a lot (but far from all) of your conclusions, but your arguments are simply wrong and unsupported.

 

[Stonker]

35 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Not really. I am also not a salesman

I get the feeling you also read and think before engaging keyboard - not unique here, but more than some do (  ).