News Forum - Phuket begins new subdermal injection method for vaccines

[HolyCowCm]

If this wasn’t so serious it would look like a slapstick vaudeville act from stooges. What else would one expect coming from a country that has a filthy rich engineer who probably bought his way to be the head of the Health Ministry. 

[Griff1315]

6 minutes ago, yetanother said:

"Until now, all vaccinations in Thailand has been done intramuscularly, but the new method using a subdermal injection – purring the needle only into the skin – saves a significant amount of AstraZeneca doses. The study results were released on September 15 and had tested 242 volunteers who had received 2 Sinovac vaccines previously and were between the ages of 18 and 60."

sounds like thru thailand 'science';

a few paid volunteers , with no randomized blind placebo group, for results in 15 minutes; 

paid after desired results

And they only had to pay the ones that survived......

[Alavan]

3 hours ago, Rebel said:

They just gets more and more desperate.

Can anyone mention just one thing that Thais has invented in the medical field. 

They ones proclaimed they had invented the ebola vaccine.  It's just been advertised  that it's  close  but not from Thailand.

The medical hub is also a joke. They are not even capable to reinvent the deep plate.

Ebola vaccin exists. Ity is produced by J&J and their covid vaccin opperates from the same base.

 

[Alavan]

Only subdermal vaccin I know is against cholera. When I was sailing I got one every six months (and also gave some to others on board).

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, MrStretch said:

And it's 20% of a DIFFERENT vaccine.

We're talking about an mRNA booster for an inactivated pathogen vaccine...two very different approaches, if I understand the basic science between the two.

No, that's definitely NOT correct.

It's an AZ booster jab for those who've already had two shots of Sinovac.

AZ is NOT an mRNA vaccine - the only mRNA vaccines approved so far anywhere are Pfizer and Moderna.

3 hours ago, DollhinSpirit said:

You are absolutely correct - there is no way a dilute Subq injection with an mRNA vaccine will be an appropriate booster shot delivery mechanism for people with the inactivated vaccine initial doses. This is basic viral vaccine 101.

No, he's absolutely wrong, as are you. AZ isn't an mRNA vaccine, so whatever the efficacy what you're saying is incorrect.

[Bob20]

1 minute ago, Alavan said:

Only subdermal vaccin I know is against cholera. When I was sailing I got one every six months (and also gave some to others on board).

 

Administer these vaccines via Subcut route

• Measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR)

• Varicella (VAR)
• Zoster, live (ZVL)

Administer inactivated polio (IPV) and pneumococcal polysaccharide (PPSV23) vaccines either IM or Subcut.

 

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, AdvocatusDiaboli said:

Let’s call it what it is …..

Experimental 

Exactly - that's precisely what it is.

Not a trial of the standard two shots, which other countries have done with the approval of the manufacturers, at Ph 2, 3 and 4, or a different / mixed second shot, but a totally different trial of a third booster shot.

They've done Ph 2 trials with a few hundred (242), they've skipped Ph 3 (normally a few thousand) and they're jumping straight to Ph 4 (200,000) so as a Ph 3 / Ph 4 trial it's totally experimental.

Whether it's with AZ's approval or not, I don't know but it's against all their published instructions.

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, poohy said:

This fannying around is not going to impress other  counties sadly the "red list will continue unabated with such goings on publicized

Another small point its simply wrong!

" from the British Medical Journal.....

Like most other vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccine should be given intramuscularly.   Muscles have good vascularity, and therefore allowing injected drug to reach systemic circulation quickly, bypassing the first-pass metabolism.   Intramuscular injection of the deltoid muscle should be given along a line drawn vertically downwards from the mid acromion.   

The manufacturers advise that the vaccine should not be injected intravascularly, subcutaneously or intradermally. Injecting a vaccine into the layer of subcutaneous fat with poor vascularity resulting in slow mobilisation and processing of antigen leading to vaccine failure.  The antigen may take longer to reach the circulation after being deposited in fat, delaying presentation to T and B cells that are essential for immune response. In addition, there is a risk that the antigens may be denatured by enzymes if they remain subcutaneously for prolonged period. Subcutaneous injections can lead to localised cellulitis, granuloma formation and abscess.

The COVID-19 vaccine has shown to have high efficacy if given correctly intramuscularly.   Subcutaneous injection can happen inadvertently, affecting efficacy of vaccination and potentiate local adverse events.   It is vital importance to reinforce intramuscular injection training with competency assessment at intervals in order to maximise efficacy and maintain public confidence."

https://pmj.bmj.com/content/97/1148/400

Very, very few "other countries" will recognise the first two doses anyway as they're Sinovac so not accepted anywhere in the West.

Nor will it be recognised as a first dose of AZ as there will be five people all sharing the same dose number, so in terms of foreign travel or acceptance it's useless.

As far as I know, no other countries are using AZ as a third / booster dose for Sinovac or anything else as all other trials appear to be using mRNA vaccines only for boosters (Pfizer or Moderna).

Although all the publicity is unclear as they're obviously trying to avoid using the "e" word, it's very, very obviously and unavoidably a Ph 3 / Ph 4 mass trial.

Only AZ could say, but my totally uneducated guess would be that it can't do much harm or AZ would have stepped in, but whether a one fifth dose will actually do much good and, crucially, whether the benefits will last as they've never been trialled yet over, say, six months even with a Ph 1 or Ph 2 group only time will tell.

Thank God I'm not in Phuket and part of this trial, though, wittingly or unwittingly.

If this is supposed to increase people's confidence in registering for a jab, though, it's almost certainly going to have the opposite effect.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Alavan said:

Only subdermal vaccin I know is against cholera. When I was sailing I got one every six months (and also gave some to others on board).

 

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

Administer these vaccines via Subcut route

• Measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR)

• Varicella (VAR)
• Zoster, live (ZVL)

Administer inactivated polio (IPV) and pneumococcal polysaccharide (PPSV23) vaccines either IM or Subcut.

They vary, some are  subcutaneous (MMR, yellow fever, meningitis) some are intramuscular and some can be either depending on the specifics (hep B), but this with AZ is clearly unproven in Ph 3 or 4 trials.

 

2 hours ago, yetanother said:

... a few paid volunteers , with no randomized blind placebo group, for results in 15 minutes; 

paid after desired results

No, the trials were actually half of the 242 intramuscular and half subcutaneous / intradermal, so the trial group was even smaller - little more than a hundred.

They seem to be just jumping from a small Ph2 trial of just over a hundred straight to a mass Ph4 trial of 200,000 with nothing in-between and no tests of efficacy after, say, 3 or 6 months.

That's a hell of a gamble for all those unfortunate enough to have had two doses of Sinovac.

[AlexPTY]

Wasn't one failed sandbox enough already? 

[miblish51]

Sounds like complete bullshit to me. The "efficacy" is how well it keeps infected people from getting sick from it. They would have to follow the injkected and control groups for a year, and 242 is a miniscule sample size. They're looking for a way to pretend to vaccinate people so they can open up the bars again.

[gummy]

39 minutes ago, miblish51 said:

Sounds like complete bullshit to me. The "efficacy" is how well it keeps infected people from getting sick from it. They would have to follow the injkected and control groups for a year, and 242 is a miniscule sample size. They're looking for a way to pretend to vaccinate people so they can open up the bars again.

More like simply saving face on the numbers injected.

[Paco]

next injection will be in your ass, everyone in the naked ass in the hospital...

[MrStretch]

8 hours ago, Stonker said:

AZ is NOT an mRNA vaccine - the only mRNA vaccines approved so far anywhere are Pfizer and Moderna.

I stand corrected, you are right.

[Chaimai]

2 hours ago, AlexPTY said:

Wasn't one failed sandbox enough already? 

 

Remind me again  -  Why was it a failure?

[MrStretch]

16 minutes ago, Chaimai said:

Remind me again  -  Why was it a failure?

It delivered thousands upon thousands of people fewer than the TAT had planned and predicted, smaller merchants didn't benefit from the people who did come, and with the bars closed and the restaurants not allowed to serve alcohol a large amount of remittances needed in Isaan were never earned and never sent.

[Chaimai]

5 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

It delivered thousands upon thousands of people fewer than the TAT had planned and predicted, smaller merchants didn't benefit from the people who did come, and with the bars closed and the restaurants not allowed to serve alcohol a large amount of remittances needed in Isaan were never earned and never sent.

 

 

This was never about TAT (they might like to think it was!) and the number of visitors was never going to be large.

 

This was an experiment to see how to allow visitors back into Thailand and to see what the impact on Covid in Thailand was. In that respect it succeeded, although local police suddenly becoming heavy handed with a local bar didn't help.

It also offered a quarantine free option for returning expats. 

 

I read of 98 positive tests from Sandbox visitors.... not all of those were at arrival. The vast majority of Phuket cases are from locals (and, of course, migrant workers).

The world needs to learn how to live with Covid, rather than surrendering to it. It is not rocket-science, vaccinate your population to downgrade the worst effects to that of, say, 'flu' and protect the most vulnerable.

 

Caveat...TAT report...https://www.tatnews.org/2021/09/phuket-sandbox-welcomes-33000-arrivals-during-1-july-16-september/

[Poppin]

242 people tested on this new method is clearly not enough to say that this is the right way to go for booster jabs. This is just a short cut to increase vaccination and save on the product.

[Stardust]

15 hours ago, Thaiger said:

Phuket has become the first province in Thailand to implement a new injection method of administering a third Covid-19 booster vaccine under the skin instead of into the muscle. Staff at the Indoor Sports Stadium at Saphan Hin began using the new vaccination method for the first time yesterday. The Ministry of Public Health recently approved the new method following a study by staff at Vachira Phuket Hospital that showed an AstraZeneca booster was just as effective as the standard method when injecting only 20% of a normal dose just under the skin. Until now, all vaccinations in Thailand has […]

The post Phuket begins new subdermal injection method for vaccines appeared first on Thaiger News.

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And sharing the needles, too? They are becoming really scary the ccsa and thinking they can take living people for testing. This shows again nobody can trust this Clowns from the government especially not the incompetent disaster minister Anutin, he messed up all and is a notorious liar. They should be behind bars were people like them should be.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Smithydog
Offensive and inaccurate comparison removed

[Smithydog]

Personally, I would prefer any new method being subject to a mass clinical trial with the proper scientific methods before any possibly unqualified Government official suddenly decides "let's do it!". Too often through this Pandemic we have seen suggested treatments etc put forward without the same level of scientific study that other items have been subjected to. Too often this has been demanded by unqualified people that the only interest they have is a political agenda.

In my opinion, we have a Government who has seemingly pushed themselves into a corner with their multiple and contradictory vaccination and Covid-19 announcements. Who is prioritised this week or even day? What colour scheme are we using now for Zones and what does it mean? Who can do what?

This has now resulted in another likely "Face-saving" exercise. Use of this injection method could be used to boost claimed vaccination numbers. It is speculation, however personally I find it hard to think otherwise based on their past history.

I hope it works. No country should think it has the licence to be the only country to think up new ideas. Too often we wrongly look down in scorn and criticise because of our own pre-conceived ideas of what should be.

In science, perhaps that too often this can be caused by simple jealousy that we didn't think of it ourselves!

Smithydog

 

[Bob20]

If they really want a novel way and at the same time make the announced numbers, why not replace the rubber bullets with dart syringes

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, MrStretch said:

I stand corrected, you are right.

Thanks, @MrStretch, my respect to you for acknowledging the slip.

[harry1]

16 hours ago, Griff1315 said:

First mix and match with vaccines. Now only 20% of a true dose to be used as booster shots to their failed vaccine of choice. Folly after folly, are they leading the world with leaps forward in vaccine use or just fooling the Thai people. One things sure they aren't fooling themselves off any Red Zone listings anytime soon.

europe dont recognised the mixing of sinovac as being fully vaccinated ? but as thailand is red listed,whether your vaccinated or not you still have to go into a paid quarantine for 14 days,that even if your allowed in  europe ? l,m waiting to fly home if and when thailand come off the red listing,as l dont trust the very desperate vaccine program here,especially the news of short change on booster

Edited September 26, 2021 by harry1
mispelling

[harry1]

17 hours ago, DollhinSpirit said:

Phuket’s team of world class virologists leading the way.

you mean ventriloquist,repeating the same script from the chosen one

[harry1]

15 hours ago, Paco said:

another invention of thailand, why they not just follow the guidelines that go with the vaccines??? if this goes wrong, it will be AGAIN longer before re opening, before a tourist comes, all these self invented ideas are every time useless and stupid, same as they invent Visa and then they add some stupid rules to it so nobody can make use of it... when do they really learn????????

and why they trying to bring in a law for disclaimant to cover themselves