News Forum - Phuket begins new subdermal injection method for vaccines

[Thaiger]

Phuket has become the first province in Thailand to implement a new injection method of administering a third Covid-19 booster vaccine under the skin instead of into the muscle. Staff at the Indoor Sports Stadium at Saphan Hin began using the new vaccination method for the first time yesterday. The Ministry of Public Health recently approved the new method following a study by staff at Vachira Phuket Hospital that showed an AstraZeneca booster was just as effective as the standard method when injecting only 20% of a normal dose just under the skin. Until now, all vaccinations in Thailand has […]

The post Phuket begins new subdermal injection method for vaccines appeared first on Thaiger News.

Read the full story

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

And they have found another way to get under our skin!!!

[DollhinSpirit]

Phuket’s team of world class virologists leading the way.

[MrStretch]

 

I am unaware of any other country that is taking this skin popping approach.  I've tried to find some research that supports this "study" in Phuket, and so far, have come up dry.

The only thing I did find was a research paper that said that the vaccines should be delivered intramuscularly, not subdermal.

"Like most other vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccine should be given intramuscularly. Muscles have good vascularity, and therefore allowing injected drug to reach systemic circulation quickly, bypassing the first-pass metabolism. Intramuscular injection of the deltoid muscle should be given along a line drawn vertically downwards from the mid acromion.The manufacturers advise that the vaccine should not be injected intravascularly, subcutaneously or intradermally. Injecting a vaccine into the layer of subcutaneous fat with poor vascularity resulting in slow mobilisation and processing of antigen leading to vaccine failure.The antigen may take longer to reach the circulation after being deposited in fat, delaying presentation to T and B cells that are essential for immune response. In addition, there is a risk that the antigens may be denatured by enzymes if they remain subcutaneously for prolonged period. Subcutaneous injections can lead to localised cellulitis, granuloma formation and abscess.

The COVID-19 vaccine has shown to have high efficacy if given correctly intramuscularly. Subcutaneous injection can happen inadvertently, affecting efficacy of vaccination and potentiate local adverse events. It is vital importance to reinforce intramuscular injection training with competency assessment at intervals in order to maximise efficacy and maintain public confidence."

https://pmj.bmj.com/content/97/1148/400

 

[Bob20]

The mist is slowly clearing...

With only 20% of a dose required, they can magically count one regular dose as five booster doses.

That makes the 152.9m doses for this year more believable, although that's hardly how it was announced!

[Bob20]

8 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

I am unaware of any other country that is taking this skin popping approach.  I've tried to find some research that supports this "study" in Phuket, and so far, have come up dry.

What you've found is for normal vaccination. The subdermal method is being researched for boosters only. I will find the references for you when I get home. As far as I know no data supports this method for routine use yet. But, hey, that didn't stop them mixing and matching either...

Multiplying some stock by five makes the numbers more believable anyway. They could have been clear about this from the start.

[Dr.Sivada]

Pathetic. 

[Griff1315]

First mix and match with vaccines. Now only 20% of a true dose to be used as booster shots to their failed vaccine of choice. Folly after folly, are they leading the world with leaps forward in vaccine use or just fooling the Thai people. One things sure they aren't fooling themselves off any Red Zone listings anytime soon.

[MrStretch]

And it's 20% of a DIFFERENT vaccine.

We're talking about an mRNA booster for an inactivated pathogen vaccine...two very different approaches, if I understand the basic science between the two.

[Rebel]

They just gets more and more desperate.

Can anyone mention just one thing that Thais has invented in the medical field. 

They ones proclaimed they had invented the ebola vaccine.  It's just been advertised  that it's  close  but not from Thailand.

The medical hub is also a joke. They are not even capable to reinvent the deep plate.

 

[DollhinSpirit]

32 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

And it's 20% of a DIFFERENT vaccine.

We're talking about an mRNA booster for an inactivated pathogen vaccine...two very different approaches, if I understand the basic science between the two.

You are absolutely correct - there is no way a dilute Subq injection with an mRNA vaccine will be an appropriate booster shot delivery mechanism for people with the inactivated vaccine initial doses. This is basic viral vaccine 101.

[Artemis080]

Hard no. I'm sad to have ended up with 2 x Sinovac jabs, but no way I'm taking this Frankenstein booster. Wonder what AstraZenica have to say about this nonsense, cooked up by a nobody Phuket hospital.

If nothing else, by taking this garbage shot there's every chance that it could disqualify someone from getting a quality vaccination in the next few months. Afterall, from all the hot air announcements, I think we have enough vaccines ordered to jab the entire world 50 times over.

 

[DollhinSpirit]

39 minutes ago, MrStretch said:

And it's 20% of a DIFFERENT vaccine.

We're talking about an mRNA booster for an inactivated pathogen vaccine...two very different approaches, if I understand the basic science between the two.

The Ebola vaccine was invented by a Belgium scientist in 2014, GSK later commercialized it. 

[poohy]

This fannying around is not going to impress other  counties sadly the "red list will continue unabated with such goings on publicized

Another small point its simply wrong!

" from the British Medical Journal.....

 

Like most other vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccine should be given intramuscularly.   Muscles have good vascularity, and therefore allowing injected drug to reach systemic circulation quickly, bypassing the first-pass metabolism.   Intramuscular injection of the deltoid muscle should be given along a line drawn vertically downwards from the mid acromion.   

The manufacturers advise that the vaccine should not be injected intravascularly, subcutaneously or intradermally. Injecting a vaccine into the layer of subcutaneous fat with poor vascularity resulting in slow mobilisation and processing of antigen leading to vaccine failure.  The antigen may take longer to reach the circulation after being deposited in fat, delaying presentation to T and B cells that are essential for immune response. In addition, there is a risk that the antigens may be denatured by enzymes if they remain subcutaneously for prolonged period. Subcutaneous injections can lead to localised cellulitis, granuloma formation and abscess.

The COVID-19 vaccine has shown to have high efficacy if given correctly intramuscularly.   Subcutaneous injection can happen inadvertently, affecting efficacy of vaccination and potentiate local adverse events.   It is vital importance to reinforce intramuscular injection training with competency assessment at intervals in order to maximise efficacy and maintain public confidence."

https://pmj.bmj.com/content/97/1148/400

 

[vvdb.fr]

If that's true, that's great !

and scientific journals are all going to want to publish.

Personally I am very skeptical because the sample 242 people is very small. 

If you have the name of the journal to consult the preprint ...

[MrStretch]

34 minutes ago, poohy said:

This fannying around is not going to impress other  counties sadly the "red list will continue unabated with such goings on publicized

Another small point its simply wrong!

" from the British Medical Journal.....

 

Yeah...I quoted the same thing earlier in post #68316

 

[Malc-Thai]

So the extensive testing and trials of 242 volunteers in a month hasn't made you all think, wow they may be on to something here

[Bob20]

1 hour ago, MrStretch said:

The COVID-19 vaccine has shown to have high efficacy if given correctly intramuscularly. Subcutaneous injection can happen inadvertently, affecting efficacy of vaccination and potentiate local adverse events. It is vital importance to reinforce intramuscular injection training with competency assessment at intervals in order to maximise efficacy and maintain public confidence."

I'd read it before, so as promised:

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-study-confirms-subdermal-injections-using-less-vaccine-more-effective-as-boost-jabs-81413.php

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/phuket-hospital-claims-success-with-subcutaneous-injection-of-az-vaccine-as-booster/

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/thailand-try-alternative-covid-19-vaccination-method-stretch-supplies-2021-09-20/

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2187191/intradermal-covid-vaccination-in-phuket

https://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news/detail/TCATG210924135126782

 

Now: 

1) mixing and matching is not per definition wrong. Different type vaccines may work well together and even widen the effectiveness. However, Sinovac+AZ has shown to have more adverse reactions (though mostly mild). And remember, 30m doses Pfizer have been ordered as boosters for 2022, and they likely will be used as mix and match as well.

2) Thailand has also been experimenting with non-standard period between jabs.

3) a booster should not be mistaken as being the same as a first or second dose. The body has already learned the immune response from the first and second dose and the booster is a sort of "wake up call - memory refresher" to bump up waning effectiveness. As such, a subdermal shot may well be effective.

However, for both 1), 2) and 3) research is the key. And as I've said plenty of times before, here it's done empirically on the population before solid research is completed and published. And it was first done for reasons of shortages in supply, and now it's done for reason of savings. If it were purely for superior effectiveness and fewer adverse reactions, we would have seen clear evidence from all over the world already.

[Convert54]

55 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

What you've found is for normal vaccination. The subdermal method is being researched for boosters only. I will find the references for you when I get home. As far as I know no data supports this method for routine use yet. But, hey, that didn't stop them mixing and matching either...

Multiplying some stock by five makes the numbers more believable anyway. They could have been clear about this from the start.

It would appear that there have been quite a large number of people who have  received "inadvertent"  sub dermal rather than intramuscular  shots with the primary reason being obesity ! It is not difficult to understand that in that circumstance the needle  length required to penetrate  excess fatty tissue in order to reach muscle tissue could be frightening !

The developers of the vaccines only used intramuscular shots in their trials and so the dosage regime and techniques advocated have followed their recommendations accordingly. So there is little info on the effectiveness of sub dermal shots as yet for covid-19 vaccines. There are other vaccines that are routinely given subcutaneously .

 

[vvdb.fr]

a 2019 study for the influenza vaccine shows that the intradermal injection, a little deeper than the transdermal, activated both antibodies (such as intramuscular) and cytotoxic cells (such as transdermal).

Is that this study has been confirmed by others ?

[Bob20]

6 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

It would appear that there have been quite a large number of people who have  received "inadvertent"  sub dermal rather than intramuscular  shots with the primary reason being obesity ! It is not difficult to understand that in that circumstance the needle  length required to penetrate  excess fatty tissue in order to reach muscle tissue could be frightening !

The developers of the vaccines only used intramuscular shots in their trials and so the dosage regime and techniques advocated have followed their recommendations accordingly. So there is little info on the effectiveness of sub dermal shots as yet for covid-19 vaccines. There are other vaccines that are routinely given subcutaneously .

Yes, plenty of subcutaneously injected vaccines 

No, no large number of inadvertent subcutaneous Covid injections due to obesity or needle length. The 90° injection technique in the deltoid with a 25 or 38mm needle will virtually always reach the muscle 

[Paco]

another invention of thailand, why they not just follow the guidelines that go with the vaccines??? if this goes wrong, it will be AGAIN longer before re opening, before a tourist comes, all these self invented ideas are every time useless and stupid, same as they invent Visa and then they add some stupid rules to it so nobody can make use of it... when do they really learn????????

[HolyCowCm]

2 hours ago, AdvocatusDiaboli said:

And they have found another way to get under our skin!!!

Touché 

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

Let’s call it what it is …..

2 hours ago, Thaiger said:

Phuket has become the first province in Thailand to implement a new

Experimental 

2 hours ago, Thaiger said:

method of administering a third Covid-19 booster vaccine under the skin instead of into the muscle.

 

[Griff1315]

Rumour was that they was going to mix it with whiskey in a shot glass and just let you drink it. However some bright spark pointed out group gatherings involving alcohol are illegal.....