News Forum - Decision on Hua Hin Hospital “dual pricing” case set for next week

[Thaiger]

Next week, Thai authorities will announce the outcome of the highly anticipated “dual pricing” case where a Dutch expat claims he was overcharged for his cancer treatment at Hua Hin Hospital. Erwin Buse, who filed the anti-discrimination suit two years ago, told ASEAN Now that the case was officially handed over to judges this week and a decision on the case will be announced next Tuesday. Erwin, a goat herder with his wife in Prachuap Khiri Khan, claims he paid rates for his cancer treatment that were more than what Thai nationals were charged at Hua Hin Hospital. In the lawsuit […]

The post Decision on Hua Hin Hospital “dual pricing” case set for next week appeared first on Thaiger News.

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[mickkotlarski]

  On 9/23/2021 at 5:08 AM, Thaiger said:

Next week, Thai authorities will announce the outcome of the highly anticipated “dual pricing” case where a Dutch expat claims he was overcharged for his cancer treatment at Hua Hin Hospital. Erwin Buse, who filed the anti-discrimination suit two years ago, told ASEAN Now that the case was officially handed over to judges this week and a decision on the case will be announced next Tuesday. Erwin, a goat herder with his wife in Prachuap Khiri Khan, claims he paid rates for his cancer treatment that were more than what Thai nationals were charged at Hua Hin Hospital. In the lawsuit […]

The post Decision on Hua Hin Hospital “dual pricing” case set for next week appeared first on Thaiger News.

Read the full story

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Although I don't believe he will win in court, the more that injustices are exposed the greater the case against them. The amount charged should depend on quality and level of service. I commend Erwin on taking on the authorities. 

[Stonker]

If the case fails, as it should, the Health Authorities should be awarded costs for this totally unjustifiable case.

... and if Erwin Buse is working illegally as a goat herder, which is a prohibited occupation for foreigners in Thailand, that should be the next case he's involved in.

[palooka]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:03 AM, Stonker said:

If the case fails, as it should, the Health Authorities should be awarded costs for this totally unjustifiable case.

... and if Erwin Buse is working illegally as a goat herder, which is a prohibited occupation for foreigners in Thailand, that should be the next case he's involved in.

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Never thought I'd see the day someone is happy paying "overs" for such basic services in Thailand, you must be rolling in it.

[AussieBob]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:11 AM, palooka said:

Never thought I'd see the day someone is happy paying "overs" for such basic services in Thailand, you must be rolling in it.

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Sarcasm me thinks - @Stonker is playing devil's advocate.

I too dont think he will win, but as the old saying goes - you have to lose a few battles to win the war. If he appeals to the Supreme Court, then I for one will definitely be prepared to throw some funding his way. Does he have a fund raising site? Go Fund Me??

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:11 AM, palooka said:

Never thought I'd see the day someone is happy paying "overs" for such basic services in Thailand, you must be rolling in it.

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I'm happy to pay a reasonable and fair price.

In my case that's 50 baht every three months for my quarterly medical check up and to see a doctor (all of whom have been better and more interested than any I've seen previously at the Bangkok Hospital group), another 250 baht annually (or whenever any medication is changed) for a full blood and urine analysis, plus less than five thousand baht a year for medication from the pharmacy which would cost me about three times that from the NHS in the UK - assuming that I was resident in the UK and entitled to full NHS cover, as otherwise if I was only a visitor I'd be paying 150% of the NHS's costs.

If I were working here, legally, and paying taxes, I'd get that free which is more than I would if I were a foreigner working in or visiting the UK for more than six months where I'd have to pay a 30,000 baht annual surcharge in advance (so for a five year visa 150,000 baht in advance) even if I never used the NHS.

To me, that's more than fair and reasonable for the Thai Health Authorities, and hardly suggests that I'm "rolling in it".

[Soidog]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:48 AM, AussieBob said:

Does he have a fund raising site? Go Fund Me??

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Great point. Count me in for this also. 

[Soidog]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:48 AM, AussieBob said:

Sarcasm me thinks - @Stonker is playing devil's advocate.

I too dont think he will win, but as the old saying goes - you have to lose a few battles to win the war. If he appeals to the Supreme Court, then I for one will definitely be prepared to throw some funding his way. Does he have a fund raising site? Go Fund Me??

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It’s interesting that in Thailand, expats have never coordinated any kind of formal support group as far as I’m aware. In my country, just about every nationality has a formal support group with funding coming in from all over the place. Whenever one of their Nationals has an issue, it isn’t long before the respective group is on TV being interviewed and local tv reporters nodding in support of these poor unfortunate people living in a foreign land and being ripped off by those nasty locals. That kind of publicity hits the international news in no time. No such thing happens in Thailand. 

[palooka]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:54 AM, Stonker said:

I'm happy to pay a reasonable and fair price.

In my case that's 50 baht every three months for my quarterly medical check up and to see a doctor (all of whom have been better and more interested than any I've seen previously at the Bangkok Hospital group), another 250 baht annually (or whenever any medication is changed) for a full blood and urine analysis, plus less than five thousand baht a year for medication from the pharmacy which would cost me about three times that from the NHS in the UK - assuming that I was resident in the UK and entitled to full NHS cover, as otherwise if I was only a visitor I'd be paying 150% of the NHS's costs.

If I were working here, legally, and paying taxes, I'd get that free which is more than I would if I were a foreigner working in or visiting the UK for more than six months where I'd have to pay a 30,000 baht annual surcharge in advance (so for a five year visa 150,000 baht in advance) even if I never used the NHS.

To me, that's more than fair and reasonable for the Thai Health Authorities, and hardly suggests that I'm "rolling in it".

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Stick with it, you've got it down pat.  I pay 1,500 baht for a covid test, I go to temples and pay admission, I go to the Zoo pay admission, hundreds of double priced venues because I'm a farung,Thais nothing. It's called discrimination, maybe you haven't heard of it. That's what this guy is trying to address in a court.

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:48 AM, AussieBob said:

Sarcasm me thinks - @Stonker is playing devil's advocate.

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No, @AussieBob, I'm not playing devil's advocate here nor am I looking at things through rose-tinted glasses as some may imagine.  I'm being absolutely serious and simply going by my own direct experience which is ongoing although fortunately limited.

Edwin Buse is abusing the system here by working illegally (animal husbandry is a prohibited occupation for foreigners here) which the authorities have evidently turned a blind eye to, and he wants to be financially supported by Thailand subsidising medical treatment which he isn't entitled to as a national or a resident and which he hasn't contributed a baht to as a taxpayer.

He's giving all foreigners a bad name by claiming to "represent" foreigners here, and the last thing I'd give him is any sympathy.

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 8:09 AM, palooka said:

Stick with it, you've got it down pat.  I pay 1,500 baht for a covid test, I go to temples and pay admission, I go to the Zoo pay admission, hundreds of double priced venues because I'm a farung,Thais nothing. It's called discrimination, maybe you haven't heard of it.

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Yes, it's called "discrimination" which happens similarly in every country - look at the UK for a direct comparison on state health charges which are far higher comparatively (rather than directly, which would be unfair on the UK and the west) and far more discriminatory.

That isn't opinion, however much you may not like it, but very easily verifiable fact.

  On 9/23/2021 at 8:09 AM, palooka said:

That's what this guy is trying to address in a court.

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No, that's NOT what he's trying to address in a court - if he were he may have a valid and winnable case.

What he's trying to address in court is varying charges for nationals, residents, taxpayers, and visitors which is not only justifiable but perfectly reasonable.

[Bob20]

I wrote a little piece about my opinion regarding this topic some time ago.

About this case, I read that the "tier"pricing was clear from 2019 and I don't know whether this case pre-dates that. But once you know about "tier"pricing you are free not to use it if you don't agree with it. Or you may decide to fight to change the system before you use it. But don't use something and then complain later about what you knew already.

https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/5035-healthcare-costs-and-insurance/?tab=comments#comment-56773

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 8:08 AM, Soidog said:

It’s interesting that in Thailand, expats have never coordinated any kind of formal support group as far as I’m aware. In my country, just about every nationality has a formal support group with funding coming in from all over the place. Whenever one of their Nationals has an issue, it isn’t long before the respective group is on TV being interviewed and local tv reporters nodding in support of these poor unfortunate people living in a foreign land and being ripped off by those nasty locals. That kind of publicity hits the international news in no time. No such thing happens in Thailand. 

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Maybe because those "support groups" in the UK and elsewhere want their nationals to be treated as Brits are (or other nationals elsewhere), rather than as they were in their own country, with similar allowances and entitlements to Brits, whether in prison or hospital or elsewhere.

On the other hand, the last thing most Brits and other nationals want in Thailand is to be treated as Thais are, but they want the best of both worlds depending on when it's to their benefit.

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:48 AM, AussieBob said:

Sarcasm me thinks - @Stonker is playing devil's advocate.

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No that’s me!

[palooka]

  On 9/23/2021 at 8:11 AM, Stonker said:

No, @AussieBob, I'm not playing devil's advocate here nor am I looking at things through rose-tinted glasses as some may imagine.  I'm being absolutely serious and simply going by my own direct experience which is ongoing although fortunately limited.

Edwin Buse is abusing the system here by working illegally (animal husbandry is a prohibited occupation for foreigners here) which the authorities have evidently turned a blind eye to, and he wants to be financially supported by Thailand subsidising medical treatment which he isn't entitled to as a national or a resident and which he hasn't contributed a baht to as a taxpayer.

He's giving all foreigners a bad name by claiming to "represent" foreigners here, and the last thing I'd give him is any sympathy.

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You sound as though you know his circumstances here in Thailand.

He wouldn't by chance has a dispensation from the Thai Govt to introduce a new area  of animal husbandry, ie goats, to Thailand and therefore be working here legally, paying taxes on his business etc etc or are you just making wild uninformed assumptions.

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 8:23 AM, Bob20 said:

I wrote a little piece about my opinion regarding this topic some time ago.

About this case, I read that the "tier"pricing was clear from 2019 and I don't know whether this case pre-dates that. But once you know about "tier"pricing you are free not to use it if you don't agree with it. Or you may decide to fight to change the system before you use it. But don't use something and then complain later about what you knew already.

https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/5035-healthcare-costs-and-insurance/?tab=comments#comment-56773

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Agreed 100%, @Bob20.

If his argument was that the policy should have been "grandfathered in", so those already here should have been entitled to continue on the old system, then he might have a case although very few similar changes are grandfathered in here or anywhere else, but that isn't his argument.

His argument is that it's illegal under the  constitution in 2004, which was the 1997 constitution, replaced in 2007 which was in turn replaced in 2017.

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 9:27 AM, palooka said:

You sound as though you know his circumstances here in Thailand.

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Since his "circumstances" have been widely reported here (in Thailand) and in the media in Holland it doesn't take a great deal of effort to "know" them - although you evidently didn't make that effort.

  On 9/23/2021 at 9:27 AM, palooka said:

He wouldn't by chance has a dispensation from the Thai Govt to introduce a new area  of animal husbandry, ie goats, to Thailand and therefore be working here legally, paying taxes on his business etc etc or are you just making wild uninformed assumptions.

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No, there's no chance of that, since he was a train engineer in Holland before moving to Thailand when he married his Thai wife fifteen years ago, on a marriage visa not a work permit, and the goats are his wife's business not his.

... so any "wild uninformed assumptions" are yours.

Oops ...

[mickkotlarski]

  On 9/23/2021 at 7:03 AM, Stonker said:

If the case fails, as it should, the Health Authorities should be awarded costs for this totally unjustifiable case.

... and if Erwin Buse is working illegally as a goat herder, which is a prohibited occupation for foreigners in Thailand, that should be the next case he's involved in.

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Sad but true. I can't help but see the funny side though. Comment of the day.

[DiJoDavO]

How are they going to get away with it this time?

We didn't have a dual pricing system. We just let them pay extra. 

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 12:58 PM, mickkotlarski said:

Sad but true. I can't help but see the funny side though. Comment of the day.

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What's saddest about this, particularly for those who think he's doing the right thing, is that because he claims he's "representing all foreigners" the Health Authority may take the same view and make the pricing differentials mandatory or encouraged rather than optional as they are now.

At the moment it's up to individual hospitals if they apply the different charges or not and to what degree - mine charges the same for Thais and farangs, although nearly all Thais locally have either universal coverage (yellow card)  or social security coverage (pay tax), and I can only recall ever seeing two other farangs there in the last decade.

In tourist / expat areas such as Hua Hin / Pattaya / Phuket / Bangkok / Chiang Mai that's almost certainly very different, so those that don't already charge different rates may well start to do so as a result of this  -  in which case farangs there may well see their state hospital charges double.

When that happens, Erwin Buse may not be quite so popular.

[Stonker]

  On 9/23/2021 at 1:11 PM, DiJoDavO said:

How are they going to get away with it this time?

We didn't have a dual pricing system. We just let them pay extra. 

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I don't think you quite understand the issues.

Thailand does have a multi-tier pricing system for health care.

They're not trying to hide it or "get away with it" - it's very much public policy.

[drkenchao]

as an expat, i do not oppose the multi tier pricing as perhaps hospitals, esp public ones are heavily subsidised by.government and taxes paid mostly by thai citizens and companies. i do not know if there is a race discrimination here in thailand or anything related. but i do hope there is more friendly accomodative policies on visa, reporting, vaccination etc towards foreigners, and better if there is public organisation advisjng on expats living here

[poohy]

  On 9/23/2021 at 1:48 PM, Stonker said:

What's saddest about this, particularly for those who think he's doing the right thing, is that because he claims he's "representing all foreigners" the Health Authority may take the same view and make the pricing differentials mandatory or encouraged rather than optional as they are now.

At the moment it's up to individual hospitals if they apply the different charges or not and to what degree - mine charges the same for Thais and farangs, although nearly all Thais locally have either universal coverage (yellow card)  or social security coverage (pay tax), and I can only recall ever seeing two other farangs there in the last decade.

In tourist / expat areas such as Hua Hin / Pattaya / Phuket / Bangkok / Chiang Mai that's almost certainly very different, so those that don't already charge different rates may well start to do so as a result of this  -  in which case farangs there may well see their state hospital charges double.

When that happens, Erwin Buse may not be quite so popular.

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Hes Dutch a nationality especially known in UK known to be to the point of being painful overly careful with their money

Some would even say tight!

Edited September 23, 2021 by poohy

[AussieBob]

  On 9/23/2021 at 8:08 AM, Soidog said:

It’s interesting that in Thailand, expats have never coordinated any kind of formal support group as far as I’m aware. In my country, just about every nationality has a formal support group with funding coming in from all over the place. Whenever one of their Nationals has an issue, it isn’t long before the respective group is on TV being interviewed and local tv reporters nodding in support of these poor unfortunate people living in a foreign land and being ripped off by those nasty locals. That kind of publicity hits the international news in no time. No such thing happens in Thailand. 

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Yeh - good point.  I can remember when in Chiang Mai that they had an 'Expats Club' which we went to visit. It was very 'Americanised' and not that open and friendly - I guess they had too many of 'those' Expats joining and causing issues, so they were 'dubious' about new members.

However, there is a large number of Japanese and Korean Expats in Thailand, and they both have 'clubs' that represent those Expats from their country.  I guess that what is really needed is for each country to form their own group like the Japanese and Koreans have done, and that beyond that there could be some 'coming together' when dealing with an issue that affects us all. 

I have always said that what Aussies need to do is to form a group/club, so that we can have the numbers when dealing with the Aust Govt about various issues.  But the problem always becomes that some members will always try and take over and get things done the way they want them. And of course when they are pushed out, they then refuse to accept the majority view and try to form their own group and disrupt the unity of the other group - they would rather destroy the group than agree to support something they dont agree with. Japanese and Korean Expats will accept things for the group - Aussies (and all westerners) can be extremely annoying when they dont get their own way.

[AussieBob]

  On 9/23/2021 at 8:11 AM, Stonker said:

No, @AussieBob, I'm not playing devil's advocate here nor am I looking at things through rose-tinted glasses as some may imagine.  I'm being absolutely serious and simply going by my own direct experience which is ongoing although fortunately limited.

Edwin Buse is abusing the system here by working illegally (animal husbandry is a prohibited occupation for foreigners here) which the authorities have evidently turned a blind eye to, and he wants to be financially supported by Thailand subsidising medical treatment which he isn't entitled to as a national or a resident and which he hasn't contributed a baht to as a taxpayer.

He's giving all foreigners a bad name by claiming to "represent" foreigners here, and the last thing I'd give him is any sympathy.

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Sorry to misread youir intentions - my bad.  But I have got to disagree with you there @Stonker.  There are laws in Thailand that make it unlawful to discriminate (on pricing and other things too) against someone based on their ethnicity or country of origin.  Those are the laws he is taking on and that is why it even reached the Court.  The Junta imposed a 4 tier pricing model in 2019 for public hospital treatment charges, based on criteria that are unlawful under the Thailand Discrimination Act.