News Forum - Final arguments Tuesday on dual pricing suit against Health Ministry

[Griff1315]

11 minutes ago, Fluke said:

Does the U.K have a park called Khao Sok ?

Please read and get the context of the post.

[Bob20]

12 minutes ago, Griff1315 said:

Congestion charge is paid by all except residents not really dual pricing is it.

Healthcare as part of a visa or residency application is not really dual pricing is it. We all pay for our health care through taxes and national insurance so if your new to the country it's only reasonable to ask for something. Although do you think all the economic migrants landing on the beaches in Dover or the thousands of Afghans that have come pay for healthcare. No.

Travel passes for London and the museum entry are residential based discounts based on council tax paid from being a resident of that borough.

We can all seek and discover cases of what might be deemed as dual pricing but not as blatant as here in Thailand. Weather it's an official all upfront and honest sign or the skin tax that is widely used by some not all Thais against foreigners.

Just give up mate. Now he'll pick you up on the spelling mistake. He just doesn't see the whole picture and gets caught up in so much detail that he could argue with everyone all day long

Oh no, my mistake, that's his whole MO

[Fluke]

14 minutes ago, Griff1315 said:

Please read and get the context of the post.

Whhhoosshhh 

[Griff1315]

3 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Just give up mate. Now he'll pick you up on the spelling mistake. He just doesn't see the whole picture and gets caught up in so much detail that he could argue with everyone all day long

Oh no, my mistake, that's his whole MO

I don't make spelling mistakes my predictive text does though.....

[Bob20]

Oh no, not another one

[mickkotlarski]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

I don't want to appear to disagree for the sake of it, but 'yes' it does, whether you're Thai by birth or naturalised.

Yes. This is an exception. I was talking in general terms as quoted by Siam Legal solicitors. 

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, Griff1315 said:

You will never see a Entry board to an attraction like this in the UK...

Exactly. And that claim that it happens in Belgium means the person forgot to read the article. This is what is said -

“A day tourist from Antwerp or an American traveling through Europe who comes here once? The normal rate, sorry.”

Its a discriminatory charge against tourists, all tourists including Belgium national tourists. Not a charge against foreigners like in Thailand.  I have no issue if a beauty spot in Phuket charges ALL tourists, Thai and non-Thai a 10% higher fee than a Phuket resident.  

[Soidog]

39 minutes ago, Griff1315 said:

Congestion charge is paid by all except residents not really dual pricing is it.

Healthcare as part of a visa or residency application is not really dual pricing is it. We all pay for our health care through taxes and national insurance so if your new to the country it's only reasonable to ask for something. Although do you think all the economic migrants landing on the beaches in Dover or the thousands of Afghans that have come pay for healthcare. No.

Travel passes for London and the museum entry are residential based discounts based on council tax paid from being a resident of that borough.

We can all seek and discover cases of what might be deemed as dual pricing but not as blatant as here in Thailand. Weather it's an official all upfront and honest sign or the skin tax that is widely used by some not all Thais against foreigners.

Exactly.  The examples given by certain blinkered people are all based on your residency, not backward thinking xenophobic and nationalistic reasons. If you are British and travel to parts of London you pay a congestion charge. If you are Thai and travel to parts of London you pay a congestion charge. The same is true of all other examples. To quote NHS rules is nothing short of ignorance and attempts to inflame a sensible debate.  

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, mickkotlarski said:

Yes. This is an exception. I was talking in general terms as quoted by Siam Legal solicitors. 

Straying off topic, but ...well, no, you can get dual nationality either by birth or by naturalisation (whether Thais or farangs originally) and most do although that hasn't always been the case.

If law firms want to give a different impression, it's so they can charge for what most can easily do themselves.

The only problem is really conscription, for obvious reasons, but these are the  "exceptions" as only an unlucky few will have a conscription obligation in two countries.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Griff1315 said:

Congestion charge is paid by all except residents not really dual pricing is it.

Well, if there are two different prices then I think that means dual pricing !

1 hour ago, Griff1315 said:

Healthcare as part of a visa or residency application is not really dual pricing is it.

Well, as above, if there are two different prices then I think that means dual pricing !

... and you evidently haven't read the link as the surcharge only applies to visa applicants (over 6 months, whatever the reason), not to residency applications !

1 hour ago, Griff1315 said:

We all pay for our health care through taxes and national insurance so if your new to the country it's only reasonable to ask for something. 

No "we all" don't! Entitlement to full NHS coverage has nothing at all to do with paying taxes and national insurance and the NHS say so categorically.

... and those eligible visiting the UK have to pay the surcharge in addition to any UK taxes and national insurance they have to pay.

That may arguably be "only reasonable", but how can it be "only reasonable" in the UK but not in Thailand???

2 hours ago, Griff1315 said:

Although do you think all the economic migrants landing on the beaches in Dover or the thousands of Afghans that have come pay for healthcare. No.

"No" indeed, because they're "migrants" and exactly the same rules apply here depending on if they're legal or illegal migrants.

There's no difference !

2 hours ago, Griff1315 said:

Travel passes for London and the museum entry are residential based discounts based on council tax paid from being a resident of that borough.

No they're not! You don't have to pay council tax to be entitled to the discount - there's no such requirement !

 

2 hours ago, Griff1315 said:

We can all seek and discover cases of what might be deemed as dual pricing but not as blatant as here in Thailand.

Well, some here all too obviously can't !

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Soidog said:

Exactly. And that claim that it happens in Belgium means the person forgot to read the article. This is what is said -

“A day tourist from Antwerp or an American traveling through Europe who comes here once? The normal rate, sorry.”  

No, I didn't "forget" to read the article but I evidently read it rather more carefully than you as that was the shop-owner's justification, nothing else!

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Soidog said:

To quote NHS rules is nothing short of ignorance and attempts to inflame a sensible debate.  

Maybe you've overlooked what the court case and the thread are about, @Soidog, which is dual pricing for health coverage in Thailand.

Given that, to dismiss comparing it to dual pricing for health coverage in the UK as "nothing short of ignorance and attempts to inflame a sensible debate" suggests that you don't want a "sensible debate" but you just want to be allowed to rant about dual pricing here unchallenged.

Yes, Thailand has dual pricing for health coverage, dependant on a number of factors from nationality, to residency, to whether you pay tax or not.

Fair point.

As a comparison, the UK has dual pricing not just based on nationality and residency, with different rules for residency dependent on your nationality, but the UK also charges visiting  foreigners 30,000 baht a year for health coverage regardless of whether they use it or not, and charges them the surcharge  even if they're paying full tax and national insurance!

I'm not suggesting it's an unreasonable charge, but it puts Thailand's dual pricing for health coverage, which is what this thread is at least nominally about, very firmly in the shade and what better and fairer comparison can there be?

Sorry if that doesn't suit your agenda, or a certain other poster's agenda of turning this into a tedious personal attack, but that's the way it is and those are the facts - if you don't like the facts then obviously you're fully at liberty to dispute them, but apparently that's not an option for you. Again.

[mickkotlarski]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Straying off topic, but ...well, no, you can get dual nationality either by birth or by naturalisation (whether Thais or farangs originally) and most do although that hasn't always been the case.

If law firms want to give a different impression, it's so they can charge for what most can easily do themselves.

The only problem is really conscription, for obvious reasons, but these are the  "exceptions" as only an unlucky few will have a conscription obligation in two countries.

Agreed. It may sound strange but I'm also hypocritical in some ways as many of the red tape issues blocking dual citizenship have their place. Still though all I've heard of is the long winded process knocking back many whilst some whom have the financial means may be afforded the privilege.

While the constitution is clear and balanced there is the reality of officialdom's abuse of power. 

 

Thank you for the feedback. Have a good day Stonker. In the end it has proven that my research on the topic is non conclusive.

[Stonker]

16 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

Agreed. It may sound strange but I'm also hypocritical in some ways as many of the red tape issues blocking dual citizenship have their place. Still though all I've heard of is the long winded process knocking back many whilst some whom have the financial means may be afforded the privilege.

While the constitution is clear and balanced there is the reality of officialdom's abuse of power. 

Thank you for the feedback. Have a good day Stonker. In the end it has proven that my research on the topic is non conclusive.

The "red tape" is far more about getting Thai citizenship than retaining dual citizenship which isn't really a problem for most who want to.

Apologies for veering off topic.

[Griff1315]

52 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Well, if there are two different prices then I think that means dual pricing !

Well, as above, if there are two different prices then I think that means dual pricing !

... and you evidently haven't read the link as the surcharge only applies to visa applicants (over 6 months, whatever the reason), not to residency applications !

No "we all" don't! Entitlement to full NHS coverage has nothing at all to do with paying taxes and national insurance and the NHS say so categorically.

... and those eligible visiting the UK have to pay the surcharge in addition to any UK taxes and national insurance they have to pay.

That may arguably be "only reasonable", but how can it be "only reasonable" in the UK but not in Thailand???

"No" indeed, because they're "migrants" and exactly the same rules apply here depending on if they're legal or illegal migrants.

There's no difference !

No they're not! You don't have to pay council tax to be entitled to the discount - there's no such requirement !

Well, some here all too obviously can't !

 

I truly give up with you if someone said that water was wet you would find your way into a argument to say differently. I personally have better things in life than to deal with your petty arguments. So have a nice day enjoy your delusion.....

[BainaiThai]

I am happy to get my cancer treatment drugs for approx 1/2 the cost of the same drug in USA...no need for pairty for me

[Bob20]

1 minute ago, BainaiThai said:

I am happy to get my cancer treatment drugs for approx 1/2 the cost of the same drug in USA...no need for pairty for me

Yes, all those who are talking about big pharma and insane profits don't really see how in Thailand they can provide things for a fraction of the price.

I went for eye drops a few weeks ago and they cost 45 baht. I did ask if that was correct... Yup.

In some European countries only the handling and dispensing fee is 8 times higher than that, not even including the price of the medication!

[mickkotlarski]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

The "red tape" is far more about getting Thai citizenship than retaining dual citizenship which isn't really a problem for most who want to.

Apologies for veering off topic.

No need for apologies as although not totally pertinent it actually is related and has clarified some issues.

I am curious to know what EXACTLY is needed to get Thai citizenship or dual citizenship as many nightmarish scenarios have been reported on and often when I've approached Thai public servants with inquiries (yes I speak, read and write it) inconsistent answers given with half truths have often been the order of the day.

Thank you again for the message.

[Stonker]

44 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

No need for apologies as although not totally pertinent it actually is related and has clarified some issues.

I am curious to know what EXACTLY is needed to get Thai citizenship or dual citizenship as many nightmarish scenarios have been reported on and often when I've approached Thai public servants with inquiries (yes I speak, read and write it) inconsistent answers given with half truths have often been the order of the day.

Thank you again for the message.

I was actually apologising to anyone else for veering off topic!

I suggest that if you want to you open a thread in the appropriate sub-forum and you may get some clarification.

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Griff1315 said:

I truly give up with you if someone said that water was wet you would find your way into a argument to say differently. I personally have better things in life than to deal with your petty arguments. So have a nice day enjoy your delusion.....

Amazing.  You come up with the bizarre idea that two examples, each having two prices, one based on residence and one on nationality, isn't dual pricing, and somehow it's my fault for pointing that out .

Ho hummm ..... TITT

[dimitri]

On 9/19/2021 at 6:22 AM, Stonker said:

 

Up to you if you choose to remain in denial and ignorant.

 

Isn't it more honest to admit that you are talking nonsense and cannot give a real example?

 

 

[dimitri]

On 9/19/2021 at 6:28 AM, Stonker said:

Of course it does, and of course they are - that applies in any and every country.

No health insurance will allow you to arbitrarily choose any hospital anywhere or the level of treatment / care / options you receive without their approval.

 

I can give you the names of many EU countries where tariffs for healthcare are regulated and the same for every hospital.

 

Why do I see so much messages from you where you bring things as facts, but where you are talking nonsense, because what you say is factually not right?

 

 

[dimitri]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:55 AM, Marc26 said:

The 2nd post on Google is Dutch residents discounts at museums

Another link is transportation rates aimed at residents 

Just for good measure, another link is the city of Amsterdam raising tax on tourists "to take back the city for it's residents "

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-bell-ca-revc&source=android-browser&q=amsterdam+residents+discount

It literally happens, in some form, in all countries 

 

I can guarantee you that there are no discounts for Dutch residents at museums and that transportation rates are the same for residents and tourists. There is no museum who has the right to ask you for your passport, and for transportation companies it is the same. Nobody will ask you for an id.

 

I think hell will break loose as soon as private companies start asking people for their nationality and then charge them different rates. In NL this will be seen as unacceptable behaviour.

 

City governments can ask for a tax from tourists. Usually this tax is collected by the hotel where you stay. Usually this is about E 1 or E 2 a night.  This is not a good example of dual pricing. Citizens of a city also pay tax, even more. So as a tourist you even have an advantage.

 

[dimitri]

On 9/19/2021 at 2:33 AM, cockneyboy said:

Public Dutch universities charge tuition fees to all international students regardless of their country of origin. However, students coming from the EU/EEA, Switzerland and Surinam often pay lower tuition fees than non-EU/EEA students.

 

This is a wrong example of dual pricing.

 

When a Thai family would move to NL their children will pay the same fees. 

 

 

[Stonker]

34 minutes ago, dimitri said:

Isn't it more honest to admit that you are talking nonsense and cannot give a real example?

If you'd explain what's wrong with the several examples you've already been given, by myself and by others,  which cover dual pricing by both nationality and by residence, supported by definitive links, then I'd be happy to.

 If all you can do is dismiss them on the basis that you haven't "seen" them or that's not what you've "heard" then I may as well try explaining Pythagoras' theorem to a house brick.