News Forum - Will it, won’t it? October re-opening in doubt as Anutin defers to medical experts

[DiJoDavO]

30 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Well, I wouldn't label someone a conspiracy theorist because they didn't toe the party line, but I would think they were a bit of a nut job if they dismissed all the verifiable and expert evidence and couldn't produce a shred of credible evidence to support what they said, and their only argument boiled down to they hadn't seen it for themselves.

... and it depends on 

It depends on your "experience" and what you mean by "many".

If you work in a Covid ward you'll see people dying every day.  If you don't, you won't, and "real life" is somewhere between the two.

If you're an anti-vaxxer (not that you are) you'll say that "many" in the French health-care industry have chosen to lose their jobs rather than be vaccinated, as 3,000 have done so.

If you're not, you'll say that 99.9% of those working in the French health-care industry have chosen to be vaccinated and only 0.1% haven't.

It all depends on your point of view.

By many, I mean there is a significant amount of people who are a bit skeptical about the reports by the media of Covid. 

I get your point and I agree that in some places you might come in contact with what is shown on TV. It's not that it's not bad, but what I'm so against, is that it's as if everyone is goint to die, no way out and the earth will end..... Unless.... Everyone gets vaccinated. But it's also a mainstream knowledge that actually most people will survive and only weaker people get the chance to die. And yet, everyone is forced to get restricted in doing anything. 

No talk about healthy lifestyles. If I want to go to McDonald's everyday, I can do that. If I decide to be lazy in bed all day, I can do that. No one will stop me. Ok, it's not a disease BUT it can help you fight the virus if you take care of yourself very well. 

[Bob20]

35 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

I think the one who didn't understand is you. 

If you are healthy, why should you get a vaccine? 

I don't have cancer, but you don't see me hanging around at the hospital for the chemo therapy. You only need it when you need it. 

You don't need to fill up a car with gas if it's full. You need it when you need it. 

Another Thai one, you don't need to comb your hair if you are bald. 

If you have a weak immune system, you might consider to take your vaccines. If you have underlying health issues, you might need a vaccine, yes. Because there's more risk involved. 

But why should a healthy person be forced to get it?

There's also something called a 'healthy lifestyle' which is the best way to prevent Covid. But somehow these words became taboo. No one talks about strengthening your body and immune system. 

And people who are at risk, should quarantine or something. But don't hold the whole population hostage, just because of those people. Vaccinate them, if they want, each year. 

My friend:

You use exclusively singular examples that require no interaction. Comb/petrol/chemo. You don't pass that on to anyone and you require nobody for it.

The whole thing with Covid is that you can not control that alone.

If you ease the restrictions partially or fully, if you don't carry the virus, you can pick it up and bring it home. If you already have it, you can pass it on to someone else, who then takes it home to their loved ones...

Also, a vaccine is not a treatment like chemo or radiation that you get when you have cancer already.

Vaccines are preventative measures. You don't get one when you have Covid, you take it to prevent Covid from seriously harming or killing you.

The last few days there have been new members who have followed the exact same structure of questions that you pose. And this has been discussed so many times already, not just here but everywhere, that I think it would be better to read up a bit more first because these things are pretty basic knowledge if you really want to understand what is going on. If you don't really grasp the basics, it's a bit suspect that you do know about Dr.Malone etc.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

Cheers!

[Stonker]

6 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

But it's also a mainstream knowledge that actually most people will survive and only weaker people get the chance to die.

So "weaker" people don't matter enough to inconvenience the stronger?

Seriously?

10 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

No talk about healthy lifestyles. If I want to go to McDonald's everyday, I can do that. If I decide to be lazy in bed all day, I can do that. No one will stop me. Ok, it's not a disease BUT it can help you fight the virus if you take care of yourself very well.

So what are you saying?

The government shouldn't be going for vaccines and lockdowns, but should be banning McD's and lying in bed?

[JohninDublin]

12 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

It's not that I am completely a huge fan of his work. I've heard him talk about some things which made sense to me. One thing I have heard him say is that vaccines do work. It's a bit ridiculous to be in that business your whole life and then claim what you are doing is bs. He is concerned about the overuse of vaccines. Too many vaccines over a certain period and vaccines given to healthy people whose immune system should be able to take care of Covid. I think that's a perfectly reasonable way to look at it. I just named him because it was the most recent person I've heard talk about it. And you guys wanted some source from me. 

You are talking about doubts on the numbers from China. If China is able to do it.... Why not any other country? 

I do agree that I can't prove anything, but no one can. We can only say, hey this dude sounds reasonable. But it's ridiculous to be so sure that you ridicule anyone who don't think the same. Like I mentioned before, my point of view is that there are plenty of lies told in the media already, and they have contradicted themselves later. So why should I trust them bringing new news if the newer news contradicts the previous news and on and on and on.... 

Next, if you approach news in the way you mentioned with: What should be there and what's missing, you are unnecessarily trying to look for things that you want to be in it. This is what conspiracy theorists do. 

How I approach the news is to look at their past reports and look at the current events. When that doesn't add up, something is wrong. 

I think you have totally misunderstood the concept of "looking for what is missing from the story". I'll give you a recent example.

I recently went to Colombia, and was reading on Colombia forums of recent news events. One that did not pas the smell test, concerned the murder of a Colombian girl by a man from Illinois. The man was named and the Colombian described him as a 21 yr old who in 2019, was sentenced to 20 years for the murder of bar owner, who had then bought his way out of prison by paying a $5 mill bribe. What was missing that should have been in the story, was comments from the US and Illonois Justice departs and cops, quite apart from how a 21 yr old blue-collar worker gets his hands on $5 mill.

You might think that such a story is going to be big news in the US? "Man who bribed his way out of Prison murders Colombian woman". People are going to be asking, "How can this happen. We need an investigation". But there were absolutely no reports of this in either the National US media, or even the local media in IL.

I found the news report of his sentencing hearing, and I emailed the journalist who wrote the story. She then contacted the IL Dept of Corrections who confirmed that he was still in custody. There wasn't even a quote from the Colombian authorities along the lines of, "We want to know why this man was released 18 years early to murder in our country"?

Now do you understand the concept?

Regarding China, Worldometers rely on figures supplied by the individual govs. I became suspicious of the China stats, they were being amended downwards by as much as 10k a day for about 10 days straight. Since then, there are a wealth of other sources such as Crematorium operating data and sales of Urns which cast serious doubts on the figures given by the Chinese. One estimate based on these ancillary sales, suggests that the figure could be 10X. I've not seen any evidence of others revising the figures downwards, but you can imagine in a country that is being blamed for this disease, how important it is to save face, and they will frequently lie to the international community with alacrity. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200608/Cremation-numbers-reveal-possible-suppression-of-true-COVID-19-data-in-China.aspx

In the absence of any evidence of other countries tampering with the figures, and based on my approach of looking for what should be there but isn't, I have no reason to distrust the generality of the other's figures. In other words, there is nobody coming forward from these countries and saying something like, "Last month we had 25k excess deaths, but somehow we only had 4k extra funerals".

[DiJoDavO]

42 minutes ago, Stonker said:

So "weaker" people don't matter enough to inconvenience the stronger?

Seriously?

So what are you saying?

The government shouldn't be going for vaccines and lockdowns, but should be banning McD's and lying in bed?

What I'm saying is that weaker people should be taken care of and just leave the people that can take it. It sounds a bit unfair. But it's also unfair to restrict everyone. 

With the McDonald's part, I meant to say, nobody is promoting good health. Nobody is saying a good diet, enough exercise etc. Can help you to keep your immune system working properly. This can come in very handy with, well... Covid for an example. 

They don't need to ban it, but literally no one in important positions is promoting good health. 

All the choices they have made, also forced everyone to leave those good behaviors behind. Take the closing of gyms, parks etc. But a McDonald's for example, can stay open, no matter how many people want to get a burger.

[ThailandRyan]

4 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

What I'm saying is that weaker people should be taken care of and just leave the people that can take it. It sounds a bit unfair. But it's also unfair to restrict everyone. 

With the McDonald's part, I meant to say, nobody is promoting good health. Nobody is saying a good diet, enough exercise etc. Can help you to keep your immune system working properly. This can come in very handy with, well... Covid for an example. 

They don't need to ban it, but literally no one in important positions is promoting good health. 

All the choices they have made, also forced everyone to leave those good behaviors behind. Take the closing of gyms, parks etc. But a McDonald's for example, can stay open, no matter how many people want to get a burger.

So create a VIP world is what your saying, and put all of us who need medical assistance, not because of poor life decisions but being either born with them or due to an accident, in a bubble and let the rest who believe they are better than others to go on their merry way.  Kind of a selfish attitude don't you think?

[DiJoDavO]

48 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

I think you have totally misunderstood the concept of "looking for what is missing from the story". I'll give you a recent example.

I recently went to Colombia, and was reading on Colombia forums of recent news events. One that did not pas the smell test, concerned the murder of a Colombian girl by a man from Illinois. The man was named and the Colombian described him as a 21 yr old who in 2019, was sentenced to 20 years for the murder of bar owner, who had then bought his way out of prison by paying a $5 mill bribe. What was missing that should have been in the story, was comments from the US and Illonois Justice departs and cops, quite apart from how a 21 yr old blue-collar worker gets his hands on $5 mill.

You might think that such a story is going to be big news in the US? "Man who bribed his way out of Prison murders Colombian woman". People are going to be asking, "How can this happen. We need an investigation". But there were absolutely no reports of this in either the National US media, or even the local media in IL.

I found the news report of his sentencing hearing, and I emailed the journalist who wrote the story. She then contacted the IL Dept of Corrections who confirmed that he was still in custody. There wasn't even a quote from the Colombian authorities along the lines of, "We want to know why this man was released 18 years early to murder in our country"?

Now do you understand the concept?

Regarding China, Worldometers rely on figures supplied by the individual govs. I became suspicious of the China stats, they were being amended downwards by as much as 10k a day for about 10 days straight. Since then, there are a wealth of other sources such as Crematorium operating data and sales of Urns which cast serious doubts on the figures given by the Chinese. One estimate based on these ancillary sales, suggests that the figure could be 10X. I've not seen any evidence of others revising the figures downwards, but you can imagine in a country that is being blamed for this disease, how important it is to save face, and they will frequently lie to the international community with alacrity. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200608/Cremation-numbers-reveal-possible-suppression-of-true-COVID-19-data-in-China.aspx

In the absence of any evidence of other countries tampering with the figures, and based on my approach of looking for what should be there but isn't, I have no reason to distrust the generality of the other's figures. In other words, there is nobody coming forward from these countries and saying something like, "Last month we had 25k excess deaths, but somehow we only had 4k extra funerals".

Thanks for the explanation, I might have misunderstood that part. I'm typing all day here haha. 

But you can't approach any kind of news like that, unless you actually know something is missing. If it's a guess, it's mostly trying to look for something. If you know for a fact they leave something out, I do fully understand. There are plenty of cases lately which I mentioned in another post here, where you can really see they were lying. 

The Chinese figures were surely pretty tricky, like suddenly Covid was gone. But we also do hear different news as what they hear. So no one can actually know the precise situation. I know people there who have a whole different point of view. 

You made a good point about nobody coming forward like a whistleblower. But we all know what happens to whistleblowers. Mostly it's immediately silenced and the whistleblower gets punished. 

In the west they could be very nasty with people who have a different opinion too. 

[JohninDublin]

46 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

What I'm saying is that weaker people should be taken care of and just leave the people that can take it. It sounds a bit unfair. But it's also unfair to restrict everyone. 

With the McDonald's part, I meant to say, nobody is promoting good health. Nobody is saying a good diet, enough exercise etc. Can help you to keep your immune system working properly. This can come in very handy with, well... Covid for an example. 

They don't need to ban it, but literally no one in important positions is promoting good health. 

All the choices they have made, also forced everyone to leave those good behaviors behind. Take the closing of gyms, parks etc. But a McDonald's for example, can stay open, no matter how many people want to get a burger.

I can see that these are valid points, but the problem is that that horse has already bolted. In the US there are 34 mill diabetics. 69% are overweight or obese. 25 mill are asthmatics. Somebody should have listened to your message, which has been said many times by many people.

This is now the state of play, and I grieve for those Americans who think that those with underlying conditions could be left to their own devices, and the devil take the hindmost. Not a reference to you in particular. I don't know where you are from. But I think that most Americans  who take this attitude are unaware that there are over 200 mill of their compadres in this boat. 

[JohninDublin]

55 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

Thanks for the explanation, I might have misunderstood that part. I'm typing all day here haha. 

But you can't approach any kind of news like that, unless you actually know something is missing. If it's a guess, it's mostly trying to look for something. If you know for a fact they leave something out, I do fully understand. There are plenty of cases lately which I mentioned in another post here, where you can really see they were lying. 

The Chinese figures were surely pretty tricky, like suddenly Covid was gone. But we also do hear different news as what they hear. So no one can actually know the precise situation. I know people there who have a whole different point of view. 

You made a good point about nobody coming forward like a whistleblower. But we all know what happens to whistleblowers. Mostly it's immediately silenced and the whistleblower gets punished. 

In the west they could be very nasty with people who have a different opinion too. 

I'll try and explain it a bit better for you based on a real event. A Frenchwoman is murdered in County Cork, Ireland. Co. Cork qualifies as the back of beyond in relation to the Dublin. The woman is married t a famous film producer. First news on the scene are the local papers. They have three main income streams. Ad's, cover-price and agency. They report the story to the agencies, as well as phoning major media they think might be interested, especially, the French media. They are paid for this, and until they can send their man to Cork, these papers become the eyes and ears of the French media and are called "stringers".

So if I was reading this story for the first time, and I looked it up on the internet, I would expect it to be appearing in the Irish National Media as a minimum, and a bio of the victim, as well as a reaction from France. I would also google the victims name, and I would expect to see stories reported in both the French and Irish media. 

Coming back to the case I reported in Colombia, none of that stuff was available. But give the potentially huge scandal if the story was true, it should have been. That's what I mean when I tell you about looking for the things that should be there, but aren't.  The harder it is to find confirmation of a story, the more likely the story is suspect.

As for whistle-blowers, I take your point, but if you take a large population country, the reporting systems are such, that there will be dozens of people collating and handling this data. The golden rule of conspiracies remains that the more people who are involved, the more likely the failure of the plot. There must be tens of thousands of people collating this data worldwide, and if there was anything beyond a few cases of "stretching the truth", I think it's likely we would have heard of this by now. But I freely admit that presumption by myself could be wrong.

[yselmike]

3 hours ago, Bob20 said:

Hope you get yours soon. Wonder why that didn't happen yet if they jabbed the numbers they claim. You should have priority.

My flu and pneumonia was five years ago.I got my first covid jab on April 13 this year,started to feel strange sunday 25 April,full on covid Wednesday 28 April got tested the next day it was positive.got the second jab 25 may.I still don't think my sense of smell is not back to what it was.I will never miss the flu jab again or any covid booster shots.

 

[Faz]

This is a news article discussing the opening of Thailand.

It is not another topic for the anti vaxxer's to push their personal agendas.