News Forum - Will it, won’t it? October re-opening in doubt as Anutin defers to medical experts

[Stardust]

3 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

I don't see the relevance of your post. I was questioning your apparent assertion that lockdowns don't work. Like all choices, they have consequences. That being the case, the question is do we want to save lives or do we want to save businesses?

I have great sympathy for those whose businesses have suffered, but I also have to ask the question, how many of those who have suffered such losses may have died or seen family, friends or employees die had there been no lockdowns or restrictions. They may or not recover from this financially, but you don't recover from death.

If the government really would care of the lifes or wanted to save lives they had ordered enough quality vaccines last year and would pay compensations for the families who lost their businesses and have to feed their families. But all this nit happened and they only cared for their own pockets and status quo. Thats why it was lost already and cannot expecting people who have to feed families to stay in a lockdown and I not expect that the majority can afford stay 2 years locked. The government messed up the covid management thats a fact everybody has to realize. You cannot not take your situation and compare with people who have to feed a family and or not privileged like you or think they can afford a long time lockdown. In your situation you can do that but they cannot and they have no choice and they not messed up the covid management. All this businesses asking long time already for compensations and more help. So how they should do it without compensations and families? How they can afford a long time lockdown? 

[JohninDublin]

10 minutes ago, Stardust said:

If the government really would care of the lifes or wanted to save lives they had ordered enough quality vaccines last year and would pay compensations for the families who lost their businesses and have to feed their families. But all this nit happened and they only cared for their own pockets and status quo. Thats why it was lost already and cannot expecting people who have to feed families to stay in a lockdown and I not expect that the majority can afford stay 2 years locked. The government messed up the covid management thats a fact everybody has to realize. You cannot not take your situation and compare with people who have to feed a family and or not privileged like you or think they can afford a long time lockdown. In your situation you can do that but they cannot and they have no choice and they not messed up the covid management. All this businesses asking long time already for compensations and more help. So how they should do it without compensations and families? How they can afford a long time lockdown? 

I am still waiting for a response to my original point where you seemed to imply that lockdowns don't work. It seems that when you are confronted with evidence to the contrary, you want to go off point.

I am not sure how you consider me "privileged" unless it's in relation to TH, but I am past retirement age, and still working, and my business has declined 70% under lockdown.

Regardless, on the issue of being compensated by my gov, both my wife and I are in high risk groups regarding underlying conditions. Nothing could be further from my mind than seeking compensation for my losses because the gov took measures to protect both our lives.

As I said in my previous post, there will undoubtedly be many business owners who would have died had the gov not ordered lockdowns. If I had to choose between bankruptcy and death I would not be choosing the latter. And as you point out, we enjoy certain advantages in Europe, but if you think a poorer country should not be doing it's best to mitigate this pandemic because of their relative poverty, you are part of the problem, and not the solution.

 

[Paulw]

22 hours ago, Bob20 said:

You should have had an acceptance email from expatvac, immediately after registration.

If you did, they will get to you, or you can of course still go to a walk-in somewhere.

If you didn't, you'll need to re-apply or try elsewhere.

Try re registering and if your email address comes up as already registered then you know you are in their system, if it doesnt show as registered then re apply! You should receive a confirmation email.

[Bob20]

3 minutes ago, Paulw said:

Try re registering and if your email address comes up as already registered then you know you are in their system, if it doesnt show as registered then re apply! You should receive a confirmation email.

Thanks but it wasn't my question. I replied to @ttyler

[AdamX]

20 hours ago, Bob20 said:

And you propose to open up unsafely, so next month perhaps there are only 5 in that room and they buried 2.

Very caring...

Open up safely.

Id like to see a scientific definition of what that is,.

At the moment, this is defined by executive order.

Good enough for panic junkies, the rest of us use our own brains

[Bob20]

8 minutes ago, AdamX said:

 

Good enough for panic junkies, the rest of us use our own brains

Not on this forum you're not

Look at other countries with high vaccination rates. There the numbers of severely ill and dead are reduced 3 to 50 fold amongst the vaccinated. 

You have to allow time for people to get protected here too.

The ones that choose not to get the vaccine can take their own risk.

But they are not to put others at risk by further spreading the virus while people are waiting for their jab due to a slow rollout.

[Leeshard]

“Thira Woratanarat from the Faculty of Medicine at Chulalongkorn University (warns that) infections remain high and vaccinated foreign tourists could still bring the virus in or even contract it during their Thai holiday.”

Those who are fully vaccinated will always still be capable of spreading the virus whether they’re tourists or locals and they have an equal chance of contracting the virus whether at home or abroad (although hopefully in milder form).  Therefore his comment makes no sense and taking this thought process on logically there is no greater risk to the Thai population from contracting covid-19 from tourists than from their own local population. In fact tourists represent a smaller risk because 100% of them are fully vaccinated whereas a very significant percentage of the Thai population are not. 

[Bob20]

2 minutes ago, Leeshard said:

“Thira Woratanarat from the Faculty of Medicine at Chulalongkorn University (warns that) infections remain high and vaccinated foreign tourists could still bring the virus in or even contract it during their Thai holiday.”

Those who are fully vaccinated will always still be capable of spreading the virus whether they’re tourists or locals and they have an equal chance of contracting the virus whether at home or abroad (although hopefully in milder form).  Therefore his comment makes no sense and taking this thought process on logically there is no greater risk to the Thai population from contracting covid-19 from tourists than from their own local population. In fact tourists represent a smaller risk because 100% of them are fully vaccinated whereas a very significant percentage of the Thai population are not. 

You're contradicting yourself by first saying that vaccinated people can still carry the virus, and then say they probably represent a smaller risk.

Let's assume someone enters Thailand free of the virus.

Then they can only catch it here.

And then they spread the virus here! Because tourists are not known for locking themselves in their room until their return flight. They move!

Therefore it doesn't matter if it's a local or a tourist.

People here are waiting for their vaccine because of the slow roll-out.

Until then, the situation has not changed from before.

You should not spread the virus to the people that, at no fault of their own, have not yet been able to get protected.

[BlueSphinx]

1 minute ago, Bob20 said:

...

You should not spread the virus to the people that, at no fault of their own, have not yet been able to get protected.

You should not spread the virus to the people that, at no fault of their own, have not yet been able to get protected.

Nobody is willingly spreading the virus, so what's your point?  Avoid contact with everybody unless you know their vax-status (and even so the vax-protected can get infected)?

And even more important > Both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated can spread the virus.  In fact the vaccinated are the more likely spreaders, as the vax suppresses their symptoms when infected. 

[JamesE]

23 hours ago, Alan8505 said:

Thai authorities seem to think that tourists will “jump through any hoop” that they specify to come to Thailand. Sadly, even after “reopening” I think they may have a rude awakening.

Some will, as we've seen with Phuket. But it's been 5% of the arrivals during the same time period in 2019 and the first half of September showed a further slow-down of about 40% compared to July and August.

[AdamX]

48 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Not on this forum you're not

Look at other countries with high vaccination rates. There the numbers of severely ill and dead are reduced 3 to 50 fold amongst the vaccinated. 

You have to allow time for people to get protected here too.

The ones that choose not to get the vaccine can take their own risk.

But they are not to put others at risk by further spreading the virus while people are waiting for their jab due to a slow rollout.

My point is that ''safely'' is not defined and people never question anything. 

The word ''safely'' has been used for the last 18 months to justify all kinds of restrictions and laws, almost all of which have been pointless and ineffective.

Im pointing out that many people simply accept whatever they are told and they can switch from panic to calm in an instant just because an authority figure said so.

 

[AdamX]

27 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

You're contradicting yourself by first saying that vaccinated people can still carry the virus, and then say they probably represent a smaller risk.

Let's assume someone enters Thailand free of the virus.

Then they can only catch it here.

And then they spread the virus here! Because tourists are not known for locking themselves in their room until their return flight. They move!

Therefore it doesn't matter if it's a local or a tourist.

People here are waiting for their vaccine because of the slow roll-out.

Until then, the situation has not changed from before.

You should not spread the virus to the people that, at no fault of their own, have not yet been able to get protected.

The science proves that even the vaccinated spread the virus, and that we will never be able to stop the virus spreading, unless you have natural immunity.

Given that, do you still stand by the sentence you underlined?

 

[AdamX]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:53 AM, Bob20 said:

I agree that vaccinated and PCR negative tourists do not add risk.

But while we have low vaccination rates, all MOVEMENT of people spreads the virus (like Songkran). That is why the country can not reopen for Thais and foreigners. We need to restrain ourselves until most are protected by the vaccines.

Vaccinated people do transmit the virus,

We need to learn to live with it

[Bob20]

15 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

You should not spread the virus to the people that, at no fault of their own, have not yet been able to get protected.

Nobody is willingly spreading the virus, so what's your point?  Avoid contact with everybody unless you know their vax-status (and even so the vax-protected can get infected)?

And even more important > Both the vaccinated and the unvaccinated can spread the virus.  In fact the vaccinated are the more likely spreaders, as the vax suppresses their symptoms when infected. 

I advocate limited movement for both categories until the people that wish to take the vaccine have had that chance (if you had read my posts you'd know that), so your point is mute.

[Bob20]

8 minutes ago, AdamX said:

My point is that ''safely'' is not defined and people never question anything. 

The word ''safely'' has been used for the last 18 months to justify all kinds of restrictions and laws, almost all of which have been pointless and ineffective.

Im pointing out that many people simply accept whatever they are told and they can switch from panic to calm in an instant just because an authority figure said so.

No, you argue until people will accept the risk you and the clan dictate as being your freedom.

You need to allow a little bit of time for others who choose to be vaccinated to have that chance without pushing forward and infecting or killing them first.

We accept your choice. You can at least reciprocate.

[BlueSphinx]

23 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

I advocate limited movement for both categories until the people that wish to take the vaccine have had that chance (if you had read my posts you'd know that), so your point is mute.

On 9/17/2021 at 4:53 AM, Bob20 said:

I agree that vaccinated and PCR negative tourists do not add risk.

But while we have low vaccination rates, all MOVEMENT of people spreads the virus (like Songkran). That is why the country can not reopen for Thais and foreigners. We need to restrain ourselves until most are protected by the vaccines.

So you advocate 'limited movement for both categories' (which means EVERYBODY), until 'the people that wish to take the vaccine have had that chance'.  Do you understand that you are actually advocating a virtual quarantaine for everybody with an unclear end-point months from now? 

You also wrote > I agree that vaccinated and PCR negative tourists do not add risk. But it looks like you changed your stance later on, because if the vaccinated tourists do not add risk as you wrote, why would you want to limit their movement?

Note that I do not have a problem with you changing your views based on later insights.   Next step is admitting that not only both vaccinated and unvaccinated pose a risk when infected, but that the spreader- threat from the infected vaccinated is actually larger than from the unvaccinated as the vax suppresses their symptoms, making them unwitting spreaders for a longer time.

[Stonker]

On 9/17/2021 at 10:08 AM, JamesE said:

Silver lining. It turns out that all the masks, and hand wringing  washing, and no hugs, and higher than normal flu  vaccine uptake, and all the other stuff we were doing for COVID just hammered the flu numbers. In the US the CDC is reporting one - count 'em, one - pediatric flu death. Final numbers for the general population aren't available but the US CDC's summary states: "In terms of hospitalizations, the cumulative rate of laboratory-confirmed influenza-associated hospitalizations in the 2020-2021 season was the lowest recorded since this type of data collection began in 2005."

The same in Thailand - three, plus falls in road accident numbers during the lockdown.

[Stardust]

12 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

I am still waiting for a response to my original point where you seemed to imply that lockdowns don't work. It seems that when you are confronted with evidence to the contrary, you want to go off point.

I am not sure how you consider me "privileged" unless it's in relation to TH, but I am past retirement age, and still working, and my business has declined 70% under lockdown.

Regardless, on the issue of being compensated by my gov, both my wife and I are in high risk groups regarding underlying conditions. Nothing could be further from my mind than seeking compensation for my losses because the gov took measures to protect both our lives.

As I said in my previous post, there will undoubtedly be many business owners who would have died had the gov not ordered lockdowns. If I had to choose between bankruptcy and death I would not be choosing the latter. And as you point out, we enjoy certain advantages in Europe, but if you think a poorer country should not be doing it's best to mitigate this pandemic because of their relative poverty, you are part of the problem, and not the solution.

Learn to read there was never something about it! If you not able  to read it is your own problem! I wrote about conditions from many Thaifamilies. But your one of these who reacts only when see some key words without reading the content. And I guess not care of these conditions only make a view on the own selfish perspective from a privilegded perspektive and expect everybody hast to be ordered in the same way even when a majority of Thai people cannot afford it to do the same. And not even to read and completly offtopic on my comments gives a view on the ignorance of this writers.

[Stonker]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:29 AM, Buttaxe said:

Vaccinated foreigners present no more of a threat than Thais in the country. But they bring money with them, and that money creates jobs and businesses, and jobs and businesses keep people alive. FFS open the damn country now - without quarantine. Endemic not pandemic.

You, and others, seem to be missing the point.

It's not about whether tourists are bringing money or bringing Covid.

It's about whether tourism will facilitate Covid hospitalisations and deaths spreading, regardless of whether that tourism is domestic or foreign, and until more are vaccinated here it's beyond any possible doubt that it will.

[Stonker]

47 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

Next step is admitting that not only both vaccinated and unvaccinated pose a risk when infected, but that the spreader- threat from the infected vaccinated is actually larger than from the unvaccinated as the vax suppresses their symptoms, making them unwitting spreaders for a longer time.

Isn't that defeating your own argument for allowing in vaccinated tourists?

[Stonker]

22 hours ago, JackIsAGoodBoy said:

In other words protect the elderly and the weak and that is it.

Great idea, though hardly original.

Maybe you could explain how to do that when over a third of the country are over 60 or have underlying medical conditions?

Maybe not ...

[Stonker]

21 hours ago, Americanbob said:

... use their resources to protect those most at risk (a fraction). 

Rather a large "fraction" - a third in Thailand, and over 50% in the US.

[Bob20]

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

So you advocate 'limited movement for both categories' (which means EVERYBODY), until 'the people that wish to take the vaccine have had that chance'.  Do you understand that you are actually advocating a virtual quarantaine for everybody with an unclear end-point months from now? 

You also wrote > I agree that vaccinated and PCR negative tourists do not add risk. But it looks like you changed your stance later on, because if the vaccinated tourists do not add risk as you wrote, why would you want to limit their movement?

Note that I do not have a problem with you changing your views based on later insights.   Next step is admitting that not only both vaccinated and unvaccinated pose a risk when infected, but that the spreader- threat from the infected vaccinated is actually larger than from the unvaccinated as the vax suppresses their symptoms, making them unwitting spreaders for a longer time.

It is NOT a change of view.

Vaccinated negative tourists entering are no risk added by THEMSELVES. It has nothing to do with their condition. It is their (and everyone's) MOVEMENT in a country with Delta that is the risk.

And yes, I realise that I advocate that firm lockdown should basically have been done ages ago (not half baked as was done) and that all they should have done was vaccinate!

You can look it it from whatever side, that is the only way to avoid unnecessary sickness and death.

Now you could attempt to blame me for wanting another lockdown. But we are only in this prolonged situation, which basically hasn't changed, because they didn't do it properly earlier.

Plenty of people are fed up, including me. But being fed-up doesn't make the problem go away and neither does opening up the country. I'd rather have restrictions followed by a decline in R-rate and a huge vaccination spree than more sickness and death.

[BlueSphinx]

41 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Isn't that defeating your own argument for allowing in vaccinated tourists?

Nope, as I am not afraid of catching the virus, as there are highly effective curative/preventive remedies and catching it - as eventually everybody will - provides you with the Bonus of long-lasting natural immunity against any covid-variants. 

For sake of clarity: I am not vaccinated, and don't intend to take the jab(s).

[dmacarelli]

Much is being made of the high rate of cases in Phuket. But last I checked, over 8000 cases, and under 100 foreigners with Covid. So, why the hesitation? Why the extreme cowardice, when the Thais and Burmese are obviously the Zombies, taking the lower quality vaccines and coming into Phuket from cluster sites? 

Edited September 18, 2021 by dmacarelli