News Forum - Cabinet approves measure to entice “high potential” foreigners to Thailand

[oldcpu]

8 hours ago, Soidog said:

So what about other poorer countries where you can own property? It’s just not true that foreigners being allowed to own property inflates prices. 

Unfortunately, it is true that foreigners can and do drive up and inflate property prices.   And its not just Vancouver and select areas of London.  It happens in many other places in the world.

If the area is  relatively poor (ie inexpensive to what foreigners can nominally afford) and if the area is sufficiently desirable to foreigners, and if the foreigners are allowed to buy, the foreigners will show up  ... and the foreigners are willing to pay (and do pay) prices much higher than the locals who have less money can pay.   Its basic supply and demand.

The locals will then be priced out of these more desirable areas.

When the local governments put restrictions on foreigner purchase (like Thailand has) it disrupts the supply and demand.  This helps the relatively poor locals who may wish to buy.  It doesn't help the 'greedy' local wealthy developers who don't care if they price their fellow citizens out of the market by selling to foreigners.

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

11 hours ago, Bob20 said:

The asking prices are always too high (especially now) and Thais would negotiate hard.

Not for the Rich Chinese who are losing their thought of rights and money in China with the “Party” taking back more of a iron fist mentality. Thailand may be a good home for them even if they have to sacrifice a few million to do it.

[Bob20]

3 minutes ago, AdvocatusDiaboli said:

Not for the Rich Chinese who are losing their thought of rights and money in China with the “Party” taking back more of a iron fist mentality. Thailand may be a good home for them even if they have to sacrifice a few million to do it.

Exactly, my point is spread over a few posts, but that's it.

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

56 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Exactly, my point is spread over a few posts, but that's it.

Just thought I would paraphrase

[Soidog]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Unfortunately, it is true that foreigners can and do drive up and inflate property prices.   And its not just Vancouver and select areas of London.  It happens in many other places in the world.

If the area is  relatively poor (ie inexpensive to what foreigners can nominally afford) and if the area is sufficiently desirable to foreigners, and if the foreigners are allowed to buy, the foreigners will show up  ... and the foreigners are willing to pay (and do pay) prices much higher than the locals who have less money can pay.   Its basic supply and demand.

The locals will then be priced out of these more desirable areas.

When the local governments put restrictions on foreigner purchase (like Thailand has) it disrupts the supply and demand.  This helps the relatively poor locals who may wish to buy.  It doesn't help the 'greedy' local wealthy developers who don't care if they price their fellow citizens out of the market by selling to foreigners.

I’m sure what you say is correct. In London the desirable areas are snapped up and in parts of Devon and Cornwall there are some issue. However, the overall benefit of bringing in such investment and allowing certain foreigners to live and work freely, has an overall positive impact. 
 

I simply can’t accept that allowing foreigners to own property would kill the housing market for most Thais. Yes, it may mean glitzy penthouse Condos in Thong Lor may shoot up 20-50% and some amazing beachfront house in Phuket could do the same. However, just as in the U.K., there are plenty of competing millionaires and billionaires who just have to fork out a little more. Get the taxation on buying properties right and it means more tax income to government.  It also means that a University Professor, leading cardiologist or innovative engineers may decide to relocate to Thailand bringing their skills, knowledge and money with them. 
 

It’s a clever law that plays to the fears of locals and maintains the siege mentality which drives the desired nationalistic agenda. Without this then why do you need an army front and centre of society? Clever!  

[AdvocatusDiaboli]

On 9/14/2021 at 5:55 PM, Thaiger said:

The cabinet has approved a measure to entice “high potential” foreigners,

Is a high potential foreigner like a politician… someone with lots of undisclosed funds and really good at telling porkies? I can just imagine the paper war trying to prove that!

[Dixie]

Thailand is not the center of the universe and I think the government officials are going to be surprised by the lack of interest from wealthy investors. The level of corruption will deter most people why open a business here and subject yourself to yearly shakedowns from the immigration and tax authorities. 

[LoongFred]

On 9/15/2021 at 8:57 AM, AussieBob said:

I am married to a wonderful Thai lady and therefore we will be coming to live in Thailand - probably.  If these proposed Visas are anything like those on offer from Malaysia, or Indonesia (Bali), or Singapore, or Philippines, then we will both be happier about moving back to Thailand. But I suspect that the Thai Govt will be approving the same shite as that Thai Visa Elite khrap, but at even higher costs.  I hope they have looked at what is on offer from those other countries, but I suspect they have just looked at the Visa Elite stuff, and decided to charge a lot more money to remove the 90 days and other business/ownership regulations. Time will tell - until then I will wait and see what they actually deliver. 

Seems like your over  analyzing the difficulties with Thai Immigration. Read what Faz says and you’ll be ok. The Elite visa is not for all of us. Thai Immigration is way easier to deal with that the US  INS. I don’t use a agent and find the immigration offices very helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

[Faz]

On 9/15/2021 at 8:57 AM, AussieBob said:

I am married to a wonderful Thai lady and therefore we will be coming to live in Thailand - probably.  If these proposed Visas are anything like those on offer from Malaysia, or Indonesia (Bali), or Singapore, or Philippines, then we will both be happier about moving back to Thailand. But I suspect that the Thai Govt will be approving the same shite as that Thai Visa Elite khrap, but at even higher costs.  I hope they have looked at what is on offer from those other countries, but I suspect they have just looked at the Visa Elite stuff, and decided to charge a lot more money to remove the 90 days and other business/ownership regulations. Time will tell - until then I will wait and see what they actually deliver. 

These types of Visas are not for someone in your position Bob.

You can obtain a single entry Non Imm O Visa to enter Thailand, then apply to extend your stay each year (1,900 BHT) based on Thai spouse. 400K THB in a Thai bank in your sole name for 2 months prior to each application for a 1 year extension of stay.

[stuhan]

No rich or other  foreigners are going to apply for this ridiculous Idea while the country is under the rules of a military government nor are they going to invest for the same reason, the country has been in the media for a long time and is considered unstable by foreigners and investors. First get rid of the military rulers then things may change for the better for everyone. 

[AussieBob]

8 hours ago, LoongFred said:

Seems like your over  analyzing the difficulties with Thai Immigration. Read what Faz says and you’ll be ok. The Elite visa is not for all of us. Thai Immigration is way easier to deal with that the US  INS. I don’t use a agent and find the immigration offices very helpful.

I am comparing what is on offer to western retired/married Expats to live in Thailand, and what is on offer from other nearby countries. They all provide much better 'Visa packages' for prospective Expats to spend their retirement years (and their money) in their countries than what Thailand offers. 

And I was right - the new Thailand Visa packages advised about in detail yesterday are ridiculous, and just like the Thai Elite Visa, will not be taken up by many Expats. The new Retirement Visa is only for the wealthy few - and they will get very few takers by retired/married Expats.  The numbers they mentioned are as bad as TAT numbers, and just like all TAT numbers they are fake, and all future reports they make will be fake too.

Meanwhile, those other countries I mentioned are getting lots of enquiries from Aussies (and others I believe) about their Retirement Visas, and very few are looking at Thailand (other than a visit/holiday). I am a long term member of an Aussie Forum, and back in 2010 it was all about Thailand, and maybe Singapore, Malaysia or Philippines.  Ever since the Junta took over and started making life difficult for Expats (the 'good ones' too), Thailand became less and less of a destination for retirees.

This move clearly shows where the Junta is at - they don't want 'average' western Expats - they type that the others target with incentives and benefits.  Check out this:  MyGOV - BUILDING CAREERS AND RETIREMENT | MM2H Programme | Obtaining Information Of MM2H Program | What is Malaysia My Second Home Programme  Yes - you must be more than a retired and living month to month on the pension, but the costs are far less than Thailand's Elite (or even their standard system), and the benefits are so much more (taxes, property, rights, duty frees, no reporting, no annual renewal etc etc etc). 

[AussieBob]

7 hours ago, Faz said:

These types of Visas are not for someone in your position Bob.

You can obtain a single entry Non Imm O Visa to enter Thailand, then apply to extend your stay each year (1,900 BHT) based on Thai spouse. 400K THB in a Thai bank in your sole name for 2 months prior to each application for a 1 year extension of stay.

You missed my points @Faz- read my response to @LoongFred.  I am not speaking about blokes already in Thailand, nor those already committed to Thailand -  it is about what Thailand offers to prospective Expats.  This is from my  post:

This move clearly shows where the Junta is at - they don't want 'average' western Expats - they type that the others target with incentives and benefits.  Check out this:  MyGOV - BUILDING CAREERS AND RETIREMENT | MM2H Programme | Obtaining Information Of MM2H Program | What is Malaysia My Second Home Programme  Yes - you must be more than a retired and living month to month on the pension, but the costs are far less than Thailand's Elite (or even their standard system), and the benefits are so much more (taxes, property, rights, duty frees, no reporting, no annual renewal etc etc etc). 

And don't start with the 'Thailand is better' stuff.  Singapore is better - period. And the Retirement Visa packages on offer from Singapore cost about the same as the Thai Elite, but like the Malaysian package, they offer a lot of benefits. None of which Thailand offers - except to the wealthy they are targeting with their new Retirement Visa. 

PS - In both Malaysia and Singapore (and the others that offer Retirement Visa Packages) the money you deposit into one of their banks is Govt Guaranteed (all of it) and you earn the interest tax free, and you can withdraw part of it for 'approved' purchases (things like Health Insurance, or to buy a Property). Plus if/when you decide to leave, you can withdraw/transfer it out without any fees or charges and no problems (Govt Guaranteed). 

[AussieBob]

11 hours ago, Dixie said:

Thailand is not the center of the universe and I think the government officials are going to be surprised by the lack of interest from wealthy investors. The level of corruption will deter most people why open a business here and subject yourself to yearly shakedowns from the immigration and tax authorities. 

What do you mean yearly?  Mate - businesses here are subject to monthly shakedowns, and not just the Govt Authorities - the Police as well. There was a show on the Thaiger recently where Mike told everyone about what was happening - I am surprised he has not disappeared - years ago people who spoke out much did disappear (especially up North). I wont say anymore about current 'dissenters' who have gone missing.

[AussieBob]

2 hours ago, stuhan said:

No rich or other  foreigners are going to apply for this ridiculous Idea while the country is under the rules of a military government nor are they going to invest for the same reason, the country has been in the media for a long time and is considered unstable by foreigners and investors. First get rid of the military rulers then things may change for the better for everyone. 

Good summary of a lot of western opinion= Too risky at the moment - wait until after Covid and the 2023 elections - and then review again.

But the Chinese wealthy are another matter and that is exactly who these Visas are targeted at. Some people could say they are helping their 'cousins' escape from China with their money, before the CCP completely stops all the Chinese money that has been going overseas in the last few decades. If they did say that - then I would agree with them .

[LoongFred]

41 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Good summary of a lot of western opinion= Too risky at the moment - wait until after Covid and the 2023 elections - and then review again.

But the Chinese wealthy are another matter and that is exactly who these Visas are targeted at. Some people could say they are helping their 'cousins' escape from China with their money, before the CCP completely stops all the Chinese money that has been going overseas in the last few decades. If they did say that - then I would agree with them .

Sounds like Thailand would be a poor choice for you. As far as shakedowns, I've never had that experience. I pretty much follow the laws, always address others with respect, and avoid seedy places. 

I do get requests for donations (voluntary) an mostly contribute what I can. It's like buying girl scout cookies or donations to the needy. I like doing my part and wouldn't call it a shakedown. 

Faz was spot on and Thai Immigration is only a problem if you make it one. Visa renewal is only 1900 baht/year so very reasonable.

[AussieBob]

5 hours ago, LoongFred said:

Sounds like Thailand would be a poor choice for you. As far as shakedowns, I've never had that experience. I pretty much follow the laws, always address others with respect, and avoid seedy places. 

I do get requests for donations (voluntary) an mostly contribute what I can. It's like buying girl scout cookies or donations to the needy. I like doing my part and wouldn't call it a shakedown. 

Faz was spot on and Thai Immigration is only a problem if you make it one. Visa renewal is only 1900 baht/year so very reasonable.

It is not all about you mate - Mike explained that he regularly had 'visits' and that it is endemic in Thailand. My wife's Sister and Brother both own businesses and they get the same.  You can stay in the village and be good and you will be fine mate - but in Thailand there things you obviously have no idea about.  Overall it is a great place - but there are things going on that you are obviously unaware of.  Look for the morning show where Mike details it all - about 3 or 4 weeks ago?    

[LoongFred]

13 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

It is not all about you mate - Mike explained that he regularly had 'visits' and that it is endemic in Thailand. My wife's Sister and Brother both own businesses and they get the same.  You can stay in the village and be good and you will be fine mate - but in Thailand there things you obviously have no idea about.  Overall it is a great place - but there are things going on that you are obviously unaware of.  Look for the morning show where Mike details it all - about 3 or 4 weeks ago?    

I know a lot about what goes on in both Thailand and in the US. I only spent a few months in Australia years ago so, no comment. What I was trying to say is that if you follow the rules and don't cut corners you'll be fine. I spent 5 years in Bangkok before and have experienced the system. I had friends at all levels both in Thailand and the US. 

I personally haven't experienced concerns about my wellbeing in Thailand. 

I live upcountry because I like the culture and the slower life style. After all I'm retired. BTW my experience in Thailand goes back >50 years. 

 

[LoongFred]

1 hour ago, LoongFred said:

I know a lot about what goes on in both Thailand and in the US. I only spent a few months in Australia years ago so, no comment. What I was trying to say is that if you follow the rules and don't cut corners you'll be fine. I spent 5 years in Bangkok before and have experienced the system. I had friends at all levels both in Thailand and the US. 

I personally haven't experienced concerns about my wellbeing in Thailand. 

I live upcountry because I like the culture and the slower life style. After all I'm retired. BTW my experience in Thailand goes back >50 years. 

Ì've heard that government procurement gets kickbacks but knocking on doors of small business is small potatoes. I'm not saying that Thailand or other countries are free of corruption, but it doesn't reach to me.

[Stonker]

8 hours ago, AussieBob said:

 Check out this:  MyGOV - BUILDING CAREERS AND RETIREMENT | MM2H Programme | Obtaining Information Of MM2H Program | What is Malaysia My Second Home Programme  Yes - you must be more than a retired and living month to month on the pension, but the costs are far less than Thailand's Elite (or even their standard system), and the benefits are so much more (taxes, property, rights, duty frees, no reporting, no annual renewal etc etc etc). 

Fair point, but TBH "so what"?

These forums may be a great place for whingeing expats / wannabe expats to meet, but if you honestly think anyone chooses to retire to / live in Thailand / Malaysia / Singapore / Indonesia / Cambodia / Vietnam / etc based on reporting, annual renewals, etc, then I think you're more in la-la land than the people making these proposals.

They may put a very few people off, as the need for money in the bank did for a few here, but apart from attracting begpackers or those on a minimal income who'll contribute little they'll make no real difference to anyone else's decision whatever excuse they give one way or the other. 

[AussieBob]

On 9/17/2021 at 5:26 PM, LoongFred said:

Ì've heard that government procurement gets kickbacks but knocking on doors of small business is small potatoes. I'm not saying that Thailand or other countries are free of corruption, but it doesn't reach to me.

All good Fred - understand where you are coming from.  It is not about you enjoying life up there so to speak, it is about prospective retirees (in Australia but also elsewhere) looking at what is on offer to attract them to come and live in their country when in retirement.  Singapore and Taiwan sets the financial bar high, but they offer a lot of benefits.  Malaysia and Indonesia set the financial bar lower, but they also offer a lot of benefits. Philippines sets it lower and doesn't offer as much as those others.  But Thailand sets the bar way above the others and offers very few benefits. There are many examples but the best one for you to know is the 90 days reporting - all those other countries do not require 90 day reporting for retirees.

[HiuMak]

On 9/16/2021 at 4:59 PM, Soidog said:

I’m sure what you say is correct. In London the desirable areas are snapped up and in parts of Devon and Cornwall there are some issue. However, the overall benefit of bringing in such investment and allowing certain foreigners to live and work freely, has an overall positive impact. 
 

I simply can’t accept that allowing foreigners to own property would kill the housing market for most Thais. Yes, it may mean glitzy penthouse Condos in Thong Lor may shoot up 20-50% and some amazing beachfront house in Phuket could do the same. However, just as in the U.K., there are plenty of competing millionaires and billionaires who just have to fork out a little more. Get the taxation on buying properties right and it means more tax income to government.  It also means that a University Professor, leading cardiologist or innovative engineers may decide to relocate to Thailand bringing their skills, knowledge and money with them. 
 

It’s a clever law that plays to the fears of locals and maintains the siege mentality which drives the desired nationalistic agenda. Without this then why do you need an army front and centre of society? Clever!  

I think the same too, what's wrong with having a free property market? Those thai's who have already owned good property in parts of Bangkok, Phuket or Pattaya can sell off to foreigners or rich local thais and make a handsome profit and can buy cheaper land and houses further out the city or other parts of Thailand. Protectionism in Property is so old school.

There are also many wealthy Thais who can own luxury penthouses and also wealthy thais who are just making money in property off middle and lower income Thais as well.

Yes there might be implications to the younger generation to owning a property in the future due to the high prices of housing in central area. But this is the way of life in many other countries, developed or non-developed and they just have to proof themselves and find a way of life if they so want to buy a decent property in central Bangkok for example.  

[palooka]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:26 PM, Dixie said:

Thailand is not the center of the universe and I think the government officials are going to be surprised by the lack of interest from wealthy investors. The level of corruption will deter most people why open a business here and subject yourself to yearly shakedowns from the immigration and tax authorities. 

You forgot the police or have you included tea money as tax?

[TukTuk]

On 9/14/2021 at 10:20 PM, oldcpu said:

And I know many qualified people, engineers, pilots, who were turned down residency in Australia and New Zealand ... One in particular had a paid for house in Australia of about a million Aus $ with a paying job who had to leave Australia when residency refused and visa time run out.

Australia and New Zealand are massively more difficult to migrate to than Thailand. 

Realistically, how many people do you know in this situation out of a population of 25.5 million people?

 

[gummy]

1 hour ago, TukTuk said:

Realistically, how many people do you know in this situation out of a population of 25.5 million people?

Can't wait for this one to run 

[oldcpu]

5 hours ago, TukTuk said:

Realistically, how many people do you know in this situation out of a population of 25.5 million people?

How many people does one need to know to draw their own experience?  

How many people do you know who have tried?

How much have you read on this topic?

Edited September 20, 2021 by oldcpu