News Forum - Cabinet approves measure to entice “high potential” foreigners to Thailand

[JohninDublin]

5 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I could explain it to you but you would not believe me.

Case in point : Vancouver.

Prices skyrocketed for real estate after Hong Kong Chinese money poured in.

This was all areas and not just exclusive spots.

That would have been exceptional circumstances, given events in HK in 1997 with mass migration and so many "wealthy refugees" deciding to settle in one area. How did that affect house price inflation in Canada in general?

If you remove the wealth factor in that particular case, you will see that refugees normally arrive impoverished and end up renting (not buying) in the poorest areas.

[oldcpu]

17 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

That would have been exceptional circumstances, given events in HK in 1997 with mass migration and so many "wealthy refugees" deciding to settle in one area.

The events in HK were a catalyst - but all around the world are upheavals where the wealthy move.

Its been pointed out, and inappropriately (IMHO) discarded in this thread, that housing prices in places such of London are astronomical because of wealthy people from the middle east, Russia, and other places, where London is a far more preferable location. London flats have been bought not only for the wealthy and their family to live, but also as speculated investments.

Vancouver and London are not the only places in the world where this has happened - where prices have sky rocketed beyond their nominal levels due to massive foreign buying at inflated prices.

In the case of Thailand, the foreigners coming to Thailand are very wealthy compared to the average Thai. This has resulted in massively expensive Villas in places such as Phuket (and other Thai resorts) and expensive condos in places such as Pattaya and Bangkok, - with prices driven so high (relatively speaking) that most of the Thai locals can't possibly afford.

The 51% Thai ownership (for condos) and foreigners legally not supposed to be owning land (although many cheat via Thai "shell" companies they setup) only partly helps in reducing the pricing beyond that of only the very few wealthy Thai.  If those restrictions are removed, I dare say prices would skyrocket such that it would be even worse for the average Thai.

So while, like many foreigners, I would like to see it possible for foreigners to own land in Thailand, and I would like to see this max of 49% of foreign ownership in Condominiums removed, ... I do fully understand and can appreciate the Thai view here. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by oldcpu

[Thommo]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Excellent !

I think that is very very good. 

Dont forget   buy land   vote (once a citizen) stand for parliment (provided no criminal conviction)  no double pricing   maybe Australia is not a racist country ! 

[Bob20]

Just now, Thommo said:

Dont forget   buy land   vote (once a citizen) stand for parliment (provided no criminal conviction)  no double pricing   maybe Australia is not a racist country ! 

No criminal conviction was scrapped already, no?

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The events in HK were a catalyst - but all around the world are upheavals where the wealthy move.

Its been pointed out, and inappropriately (IMHO) discarded in this thread, that housing prices in places such of London are astronomical because of wealthy people from the middle east, Russia, and other places, where London is a far more preferable location. London flats have been bought not only for the wealthy and their family to live, but also as speculated investments.

Vancouver and London are not the only places in the world where this has happened - where prices have sky rocketed beyond their nominal levels due to massive foreign buying at inflated prices.

In the case of Thailand, the foreigners coming to Thailand are very wealthy compared to the average Thai. This has resulted in massively expensive Villas in places such as Phuket (and other Thai resorts) and expensive condos in places such as Pattaya and Bangkok, - with prices driven so high (relatively speaking) that most of the Thai locals can't possibly afford.

The 51% Thai ownership (for condos) and foreigners legally not supposed to be owning land (although many cheat via Thai "shell" companies they setup) only partly helps in reducing the pricing beyond that of only the very few wealthy Thai.  If those restrictions are removed, I dare say prices would skyrocket such that it would be even worse for the average Thai.

So while, like many foreigners, I would like to see it possible for foreigners to own land in Thailand, and I would like to see this max of 49% of foreign ownership in Condominiums removed, ... I do fully understand and can appreciate the Thai view here. 

But quoting the rising prices in London and then linking it to foreigners is not really accurate. As I stated, the foreign investors are mainly buying new up-scale developments, or in the case of the Russian Oligarchs, mainly in the orbit of Kensington. Those who have been buying terraced housing are the super-rich that got the money from banks that was intended to aid business following credit crunch. 

Regarding skyrocketing prices in TH, there is that possibility if you make it a "free for all". But if you set a minimum threshold of say THB 10 mill, you only really affect the upper end of the market, and I have yet to hear the rich complain about rising house prices. During the meantime, the breezeblock shacks will be off limits.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, JohninDubin said:

But if you set a minimum threshold of say THB 10 mill, you only really affect the upper end of the market, and I have yet to hear the rich complain about rising house prices. During the meantime, the breezeblock shacks will be off limits.

I don't know the solution 'to protect less wealthy Thai citizens' when it comes to allowing foreigners to purchase real estate to stop prices from sky rocketing.

I do think what ever market is opened, the prices will sky rocket. 

I suspect not allowing some of the less wealthy foreigners to purchase real estate that is less than 10-million will irritate a lot of foreigners who can't quite make it to 10-million. 

Further, I suspect many developers, wanting to take advantage of the wealthy foreigner market, will inflate places of units from 6-million up, selling such at 10-million, again hurting the Thai market, as the void left by places selling from 6-to-9.9-million (as they have been marked up to 10-million), will result in places from 3-to-5.9 million having their prices increased by 40%, hurting potential less wealthy Thai buyers.

I don't know if there is an easy way to do this (opening up the current restrictions on foreign ownership).

Still - from the view point of myself as a foreigner, I would like to see views such as yours, raised and discussed ...   I suspect many Thais (who are not into real estate buy/selling, nor developing) may see this differently.

Edited September 15, 2021 by oldcpu

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I don't know the solution 'to protect less wealthy Thai citizens' when it comes to allowing foreigners to purchase real estate to stop prices from sky rocketing.

I do think what ever market is opened, the prices will sky rocket. 

I suspect not allowing some of the less wealthy foreigners to purchase real estate that is less than 10-million will irritate a lot of foreigners who can't quite make it to 10-million. 

Further, I suspect many developers, wanting to take advantage of the wealthy foreigner market, will inflate places of units from 6-million up, selling such at 10-million, again hurting the Thai market, as the void left by places selling from 6-to-9.9-million (as they have been marked up to 10-million), will result in places from 3-to-5.9 million having their prices increased by 40%, hurting potential less wealthy Thai buyers.

I don't know if there is an easy way to do this (opening up the current restrictions on foreign ownership).

Still - from the view point of myself as a foreigner, I would like to see views such as yours, raised and discussed ...   I suspect many Thais (who are not into real estate buy/selling, nor developing) may see this differently.

Regarding "less wealthy foreigners", on the face of it, this scheme looks designed to give increasing privileges the more you are prepared to spend, the more they will welcome you. Foreigners may be irritated by it, but this becomes the price of membership, whatever price they set it at.

Regarding being scammed by developers, that is very much down to the buyers own due diligence, besides which, most house purchases are in the "second-hand" market. But if you are looking at a "new build", there are plenty of agencies on here where you can compare properties in an area and you can see that "this 10  Mill new build looks very similar to other houses in the area which are listing for 6.5 Mill, while I've seen infinitely better houses in the same area for 10 mill". In other words, your hypotheses is based on the idea that the purchaser will have no previous experience of house buying.

As for the reaction of the Thais, once you set a high threshold, I think most Thais would probably think, "It doesn't affect me, as it is well outside my price range in any case".

Some examples I am aware of where residency is conditional on property ownership are Jersey, Monaco and Spain. For Jersey, the last time I was aware (about 20 years ago), you had to buy a house valued at £350k. Jersey is an Island, so with limited land to begin with, that was never going to favour the locals unless they were an only child waiting for their inheritance.

In Monaco, about 10 years ago, the cheapest you might find would be a Studio flat for nearly £300k. Yiu might not even want to live in such a place but it allowed you to claim tax exempt status from many Euro govs if it was your nominated domicile and you did not spend more than 180 days in any other country.

Spain makes it difficult, but not impossible for foreigners to own property. However, if there is a need a need to build a toxic waste dump or sewage farm, you would be surprised at how often these are built close to foreign owned properties. My sister owned a house in Spain a few years back but sold it when her kids were subjected to several attacks by other kids in the area because they were foreigners.

[Bob20]

5 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

Regarding "less wealthy foreigners", on the face of it, this scheme looks designed to give increasing privileges the more you are prepared to spend, the more they will welcome you. Foreigners may be irritated by it, but this becomes the price of membership, whatever price they set it at.

Regarding being scammed by developers, that is very much down to the buyers own due diligence, besides which, most house purchases are in the "second-hand" market. But if you are looking at a "new build", there are plenty of agencies on here where you can compare properties in an area and you can see that "this 10  Mill new build looks very similar to other houses in the area which are listing for 6.5 Mill, while I've seen infinitely better houses in the same area for 10 mill". In other words, your hypotheses is based on the idea that the purchaser will have no previous experience of house buying.

As for the reaction of the Thais, once you set a high threshold, I think most Thais would probably think, "It doesn't affect me, as it is well outside my price range in any case".

Some examples I am aware of where residency is conditional on property ownership are Jersey, Monaco and Spain. For Jersey, the last time I was aware (about 20 years ago), you had to buy a house valued at £350k. Jersey is an Island, so with limited land to begin with, that was never going to favour the locals unless they were an only child waiting for their inheritance.

In Monaco, about 10 years ago, the cheapest you might find would be a Studio flat for nearly £300k. Yiu might not even want to live in such a place but it allowed you to claim tax exempt status from many Euro govs if it was your nominated domicile and you did not spend more than 180 days in any other country.

Spain makes it difficult, but not impossible for foreigners to own property. However, if there is a need a need to build a toxic waste dump or sewage farm, you would be surprised at how often these are built close to foreign owned properties. My sister owned a house in Spain a few years back but sold it when her kids were subjected to several attacks by other kids in the area because they were foreigners.

Initially it may not be too much of a problem, as it will be the Thais selling and making the money. Many have properties for sale now and they could certainly ask more from foreigners than from locals.

The problems with supply and demand start later.

But you also have to look at the bigger picture. Thailand has a backlog in many ways (compared to most western countries) and could benefit from foreigners, demanding different and arguably better services. There's money and employment in that too. 

Unfortunately, it will also mean a slow change in the "feel" of the country, like many other countries are more and more a melting pot. But that's the way it's going.

[EdwardV]

18 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Well now look at those western countries 

Their citizens are being priced out of the home buying market by foreigners bidding up home prices 

It's certainly the case in Canada, I've heard the same in Australia 

Not as much in the US though 

In Canada it's a huge problem for Vancouver, although it effects all the major cities to a smaller extent. So much so it's become a major point in the upcoming election. Can't speak for Australia, but in the US it's a very localized issue and mostly on the west coast.  The US is insulated from the problem by the fact it's not nearly as easy for Chinese it immigrate to the US in comparison to Canada, and the US housing market is HUGE. Even so you can see pockets of distortion is places like San Francisco, Seattle and parts of LA like Santa Monica. As long as Chinese citizens continue to feel the need to get money out of China (a whole different topic), they will park it in the safest investment possible. That's real estate. The only real question is how long until China can plug all the holes which allow the money to leave? 

[Marc26]

20 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

In Canada it's a huge problem for Vancouver, although it effects all the major cities to a smaller extent. So much so it's become a major point in the upcoming election. Can't speak for Australia, but in the US it's a very localized issue and mostly on the west coast.  The US is insulated from the problem by the fact it's not nearly as easy for Chinese it immigrate to the US in comparison to Canada, and the US housing market is HUGE. Even so you can see pockets of distortion is places like San Francisco, Seattle and parts of LA like Santa Monica. As long as Chinese citizens continue to feel the need to get money out of China (a whole different topic), they will park it in the safest investment possible. That's real estate. The only real question is how long until China can plug all the holes which allow the money to leave? 

I live in Vancouver 

It's a disgrace what they did to their citizens 

So many people will never be able to buy a home and all for basically money laundering 

[JohninDublin]

58 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Initially it may not be too much of a problem, as it will be the Thais selling and making the money. Many have properties for sale now and they could certainly ask more from foreigners than from locals.

The problems with supply and demand start later.

But you also have to look at the bigger picture. Thailand has a backlog in many ways (compared to most western countries) and could benefit from foreigners, demanding different and arguably better services. There's money and employment in that too. 

Unfortunately, it will also mean a slow change in the "feel" of the country, like many other countries are more and more a melting pot. But that's the way it's going.

Your point is well made, but I do have to wonder how Thais are going to demand more from foreigners. You look on a website and see the price of say 12 mill. You offer 12 mill, and the vendor says, "You are a Farang. I want 13 mil". On the one hand, I think most people would walk away from that, while conversely, most vendors would be glad to get full asking price and liquidate the asset.

[Bob20]

Just now, JohninDubin said:

Your point is well made, but I do have to wonder how Thais are going to demand more from foreigners. You look on a website and see the price of say 12 mill. You offer 12 mill, and the vendor says, "You are a Farang. I want 13 mil". On the one hand, I think most people would walk away from that, while conversely, most vendors would be glad to get full asking price and liquidate the asset.

The asking prices are always too high (especially now) and Thais would negotiate hard.

Now remember, at the moment we can't buy land and property. So we look at condo prices that are more in line with western prices for a good quality build.

If you are allowed to get into the Thai real-estate market (now not even advertised for foreigners!) you'd be surprised at the prices and happily pay them without the negotiation Thais would do... Win/win, until some time later...

[JohninDublin]

17 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

The asking prices are always too high (especially now) and Thais would negotiate hard.

Now remember, at the moment we can't buy land and property. So we look at condo prices that are more in line with western prices for a good quality build.

If you are allowed to get into the Thai real-estate market (now not even advertised for foreigners!) you'd be surprised at the prices and happily pay them without the negotiation Thais would do... Win/win, until some time later...

Not sure what you mean by, "(now not even advertised for foreigners!)", but there are dozens of sites advertising to foreigners e.g.: https://www.thailand-property.com/houses-for-sale/chonburi/pattaya

[Bob20]

3 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

Not sure what you mean by, "(now not even advertised for foreigners!)", but there are dozens of sites advertising to foreigners e.g.: https://www.thailand-property.com/houses-for-sale/chonburi/pattaya

Of course these sites exist, but now only specific small groups of foreigners can buy Thai apportioned land/property. You and I can look, but are not allowed to buy as individuals. If that were to change so that every foreigner could own it, the whole market would open up.

[JohninDublin]

32 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Of course these sites exist, but now only specific small groups of foreigners can buy Thai apportioned land/property. You and I can look, but are not allowed to buy as individuals. If that were to change so that every foreigner could own it, the whole market would open up.

I appreciate that foreigners are almost entirely excluded from property ownership.

I have been arguing against this part of the necessary pump priming that TH would need to engage in to attract the sort of individuals that they appear to want.

Edited September 15, 2021 by JohninDubin

[Bob20]

4 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

I appreciate that foreigners are almost entirely excluded from property ownership.

I have been arguing against this part of the necessary pump priming that TH would need to engage in to attract the sort of individuals that they appear to want.

I've already bought a condo

Though I hope, if anything changes, they do it right so that it won't become South China here.

[JohninDublin]

9 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

I've already bought a condo

Though I hope, if anything changes, they do it right so that it won't become South China here.

Just my opinion, but having seen the effect they have had in Snooky, I really don't see that they add any value to the places they invest in.

In Pattaya, all I've seen of them is that they come via Chinese Travel agencies, staying at Chinese owned hotels etc. 

[Bob20]

1 minute ago, JohninDubin said:

Just my opinion, but having seen the effect they have had in Snooky, I really don't see that they add any value to the places they invest in.

In Pattaya, all I've seen of them is that they come via Chinese Travel agencies, staying at Chinese owned hotels etc. 

Here up north Chinese bought quite a few condos, then rented them out via AirBNB etc. That's not allowed anymore now, so most are let long-term or more likely empty. 

But when houses and land easily become available to them, I can just see that I'm going to have to learn Chinese

[Benroon]

16 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I could explain it to you but you would not believe me.

Case in point : Vancouver.

Prices skyrocketed for real estate after Hong Kong Chinese money poured in.

This was all areas and not just exclusive spots.

Exactly same for U.K. - there is a lot of very rich young Hong Kong couples buying up U.K. property. The market is on fire. 

The Russians drove the London market  skywards too, why anyone wouldn’t be able to understand that is baffling

[Soidog]

11 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The events in HK were a catalyst - but all around the world are upheavals where the wealthy move.

Its been pointed out, and inappropriately (IMHO) discarded in this thread, that housing prices in places such of London are astronomical because of wealthy people from the middle east, Russia, and other places, where London is a far more preferable location. London flats have been bought not only for the wealthy and their family to live, but also as speculated investments.

Vancouver and London are not the only places in the world where this has happened - where prices have sky rocketed beyond their nominal levels due to massive foreign buying at inflated prices.

In the case of Thailand, the foreigners coming to Thailand are very wealthy compared to the average Thai. This has resulted in massively expensive Villas in places such as Phuket (and other Thai resorts) and expensive condos in places such as Pattaya and Bangkok, - with prices driven so high (relatively speaking) that most of the Thai locals can't possibly afford.

The 51% Thai ownership (for condos) and foreigners legally not supposed to be owning land (although many cheat via Thai "shell" companies they setup) only partly helps in reducing the pricing beyond that of only the very few wealthy Thai.  If those restrictions are removed, I dare say prices would skyrocket such that it would be even worse for the average Thai.

So while, like many foreigners, I would like to see it possible for foreigners to own land in Thailand, and I would like to see this max of 49% of foreign ownership in Condominiums removed, ... I do fully understand and can appreciate the Thai view here. 

So what about other poorer countries where you can own property? It’s just not true that foreigners being allowed to own property inflates prices. Yes, in a very few select spots in London it does. Along the river or parts of Chelsea maybe, but not in London overall and certainly not in Greater London. The foreigners in these areas are working foreigners who have fully integrated. Sorry but I’m not having it. It’s a narrative spun by wealthy Thais to keep the xenophobia alive. They worry that they may have to start paying their own people a decent living wage if foreigners move in. That’s unacceptable as they need another billion baht. 

[Thommo]

15 hours ago, Bob20 said:

No criminal conviction was scrapped already, no?

Does not meean there are no criminals in the Oz parliment.  Just means they havent been convicted yet 

[KaptainRob]

6 hours ago, Bob20 said:

Here up north Chinese bought quite a few condos, then rented them out via AirBNB etc. That's not allowed anymore now, so most are let long-term or more likely empty. 

But when houses and land easily become available to them, I can just see that I'm going to have to learn Chinese

They're still buying and/or building Airbnb condo-houses here.  Two six such mega-structures, were just completed near us and Cn families moved into one half of a twin pair (hard to describe) last week along with new vehicles so I believe they'd just completed ASG or similar down south.

The other mega-structure was also built on ONE title albeit a one rai/1600m2 piece of lake front land.  There's barely 400mm between them and the boundaries.  Each of the 2 x 2 structures comprises of 3 stories in total at the lake front, with 2 story structures at road front, and joined front to rear with both covered and uncovered walkways ... two different designs used, one quaint and the other very plain, like a container ship's bridge structure complete with helm station.  So, 4 condo style dwellings each for Airbnb letting @ well over 100,000 bt per week.

And somehow the Cn buyers are still able to buy with a number of huge projects under construction for individuals and expected arrivals.  So in our area, prices are being pushed up by Cn investors as well as some from Hong Kong (mainly family relocations).

[HiuMak]

1 hour ago, KaptainRob said:

They're still buying and/or building Airbnb condo-houses here.  Two six such mega-structures, were just completed near us and Cn families moved into one half of a twin pair (hard to describe) last week along with new vehicles so I believe they'd just completed ASG or similar down south.

The other mega-structure was also built on ONE title albeit a one rai/1600m2 piece of lake front land.  There's barely 400mm between them and the boundaries.  Each of the 2 x 2 structures comprises of 3 stories in total at the lake front, with 2 story structures at road front, and joined front to rear with both covered and uncovered walkways ... two different designs used, one quaint and the other very plain, like a container ship's bridge structure complete with helm station.  So, 4 condo style dwellings each for Airbnb letting @ well over 100,000 bt per week.

And somehow the Cn buyers are still able to buy with a number of huge projects under construction for individuals and expected arrivals.  So in our area, prices are being pushed up by Cn investors as well as some from Hong Kong (mainly family relocations).

i read that majority of the foreign quota home ownership are chinese. Unless China open up their travel policy i guess the market stays quieter. What's the attraction for the rich or super rich to invest in Thailand? Why Thailand when the rich or super rich can invest in a more politically stable country where policies don't change on a knee jerk?

[KaptainRob]

2 minutes ago, HiuMak said:

What's the attraction for the rich or super rich to invest in Thailand? Why Thailand when the rich or super rich can invest in a more politically stable country where policies don't change on a knee jerk?

Thailand is a short flight away and both food and climate agree with most Cn visitors.  Fast train travel and other BRI projects also make Thailand attractive.  There are many Th/Cn facilitators to assist (ripping off) purchase of property, moving money from Cn to Th, arranging builders/lawyers/agents and almost everything else.

The super rich are often the facilitators and/or developers here. 

They used to be able to buy property in NZ and Australia but those markets were belatedly denied them thru legislation.

[Bob20]

8 minutes ago, HiuMak said:

i read that majority of the foreign quota home ownership are chinese. Unless China open up their travel policy i guess the market stays quieter. What's the attraction for the rich or super rich to invest in Thailand? Why Thailand when the rich or super rich can invest in a more politically stable country where policies don't change on a knee jerk?

I have no evidence, but I walk through CM every day (a lot!). And there are definitely many more Chinese out in the streets since about 10-14 days. These are new arrivals for sure.

And as far as investing: you're more likely to invest somewhere where you can easily hop to on a plane for a couple of hours. And you should be more likely to invest where you can now buy in a dip, while prices likely will rise again in the not too distant future. Besides, we are not talking the super-rich here. We're talking Chinese who have made some money over the last 10-15 years and want to get it out of the country while they still can. CCP is cracking down on everything, incl. the financial system and they didn't ban bitcoin for no reason either. It makes it too easy to send money abroad virtually anonymously.