Shifting political Covid views

[JamesE]

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

Just for the record > I most certainly did NOT advocate the 'solution' of mandatory vaccination of the whole planet.

I was only agreeing with your suggestion that vaccination is creating an environment where selection if favoring variants which are both more transmissible and able to elude existing immunity whether from vaccination or prior infection. The whole "sterilizing vaccine" thing was not part of the discussion. Nor did I say you wanted to have mandatory vaccination. I said I wanted it to be mandatory.

I won't debate your cut-and-paste arguments.

My vies is that anything that statistically reduces the chance for transmission should be implemented. I was the guy who said the entire planet should be locked down for six weeks back in March, 2020. Would have solved a lot of problems. They didn't listen to that argument then, they won't make vaccines mandatory now. Let's see where we are this time next year.

[BlueSphinx]

13 minutes ago, JamesE said:

I was only agreeing with your suggestion that vaccination is creating an environment where selection if favoring variants which are both more transmissible and able to elude existing immunity whether from vaccination or prior infection. The whole "sterilizing vaccine" thing was not part of the discussion. Nor did I say you wanted to have mandatory vaccination. I said I wanted it to be mandatory.

I won't debate your cut-and-paste arguments.

My vies is that anything that statistically reduces the chance for transmission should be implemented. I was the guy who said the entire planet should be locked down for six weeks back in March, 2020. Would have solved a lot of problems. They didn't listen to that argument then, they won't make vaccines mandatory now. Let's see where we are this time next year.

You wrote > Sadly, I have to agree with @BlueSphinx on this. And then you went on to make your argument that vaccination should be made mandatory.  Hence I felt the need to clarify my position on that issue because everything you wrote after that opening sentence I do NOT agree with. 

Not willing to address the non-sterilizing issue in the discussion is rather strange, as that is the main contributor to the present crisis.  Or do you reject the fact that these covid-vaccines are NOT sterilizing?

Because the consequences of that are

a) that the vaccinated can still get infected after being jabbed and

b) that they can then transmit the virus to others (and because of the suppression of their symptoms they will not know they are infected, and are thus far more likely to spread it than the unvaccinated who will isolate at first symptoms).

And ON TOP OF THE ABOVE the mass-vaccination creates pressure on the virus, that will result in the emergence of new variants and inevitably lead to immune-escape.

>> So yes, let's see where we are next year.  The situation in Israel can already give you a clear indication where we are heading when continuing on that mass-vaccination march of folly.

[Poolie]

6 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Easy now @BlueSphinx we are not agreeing with your position that much.  Yes, the vaccines have had a few bad reactions in very few people, but far more people get killed or injured on the roads worldwide and I dont hear anyone stating that they should be banned. Well actually there are a few nutters who do go that far - you know the anti-people save the planet idiots who demand we all live in caves again and die at 35 from teeth infections or a broken leg or an appendix attack or so many other things that used to kill us. 

If there is ever a clinical study done by a reputable organisation (not by that Chinese Natural Medicines place) and it is backed up though peer review done by another reputable organisation, that shows the widespread use of the vaccines caused Covid to mutate, then you will have been right - and then you can remind us all - fair enough.  But until then there is no official accepted and peer reviewed clinical study that shows "proven severe effects to mass-vaccinate in the middle of a pandemic". 

Which of the 4238 Chinese medicine hospitals (in China itself) do you refer to? Or Paris, or London etc. where a degree in TCM is sought after?

Not that I'm any judge but Tu Youyou won a Nobel in 2015, for a TCM cure for malaria.

[JamesE]

10 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

Not willing to address the non-sterilizing issue in the discussion is rather strange, as that is the main contributor to the present crisis.  Or do you reject the fact that these covid-vaccines are NOT sterilizing?

Not willing to address it because in the current context it's not applicable. The current vaccines are - and have always been - designed to train your immune system to fight off an infection. That's never been disputed. The effects range from complete "sterilizing" to allowing an infection but then fighting it off before symptoms develop or make the symptoms less severe than might have otherwise been the case. Carrying on about these are not sterilizing so should be avoided misses the point completely. It's just not what they're designed to do and spinning pseudo-science to support a belief structure that requires that to be a bad thing is disingenuous at best.

That being said, there are several vaccines in the pipeline that are designed to be sterilizing by training your epithelial pharyngeal cells to fight off the initial infection. But until those are available we're stuck with masks, distance, and the current slate of vaccines each of which chips a bit of the probability that you will get sick from the current virus.

[AussieBob]

21 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

@AussieBob > Posted this already in another thread > a tweet by dr Robert Malone (credited as the inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology) on the topic of variants and immune escape.

 

Yep - there are medical people who state views that are not 'mainstream', and some of them are OK and some of them are quacks. Likewise there are medical people who will agree with any thing the 'experts' say without question, but there are far far more that agree with what the experts say, but will always verify based on what is happening around them. What I see occurring in countries that have a lot of vaccinated people (0ver 50%) is that there are a larger percentage of unvaccinated people being put in hospitals and dying, than unvaccinated.  

 

[AussieBob]

18 hours ago, JamesE said:

I was only agreeing with your suggestion that vaccination is creating an environment where selection if favoring variants which are both more transmissible and able to elude existing immunity whether from vaccination or prior infection. The whole "sterilizing vaccine" thing was not part of the discussion. Nor did I say you wanted to have mandatory vaccination. I said I wanted it to be mandatory.

I won't debate your cut-and-paste arguments.

My vies is that anything that statistically reduces the chance for transmission should be implemented. I was the guy who said the entire planet should be locked down for six weeks back in March, 2020. Would have solved a lot of problems. They didn't listen to that argument then, they won't make vaccines mandatory now. Let's see where we are this time next year.

You were probably right too.  6-10 weeks of stopping people moving around might just have stopped this effin thing in its tracks.  China did that (forcefully) and they have done very very well. So eventually (too late?) did Taiwan and Singapore and Australia and NZ, and they did very well too. You cannot stop a virus - you have to stop people giving it to the next person.   Maybe next time they will realise, like they should have in 1918 with Spanish Flu, that all the coming and going of troops and refugees was what spread it all over the globe. 

The suggestion that a pool of vaccinated people does cause the virus to mutate to something more contagious is not a proven assumption - it could be right and it could be total crap. In India there was very few vaccinated and that was where the Delta mutation came from - a lot of infected people. Now, will a lot of vaccinated (inertly infected) people also cause a mutation - that will become clear later when they study this thing to death after it is all over and tell us all what we should have done - and get it completely wrong of course.  

[AussieBob]

20 hours ago, JamesE said:

<rant>

Sadly, I have to agree with @BlueSphinx on this. We are, by having a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people coexisting, creating pressure to select for variants that can get around the vaccines. But this is occurring the same way as we are creating an environment where infected and recovered people are creating an environment which selects for reinfection. The best thing to do right now is to vaccinate everybody. Whether they want to or not.

One of the things that is missing from this discussion is that - read this carefully - Delta's emergence preceded any public vaccination. It evolved in a vaccine-free environment. It just got lucky and is both easily transmissible and just happened to be less affected by the vaccine.

These variants are in a perfect place to move on from here because they already have a slight edge. Forget Delta, forget Mu. The ones we need to worry about are the ones who start from Delta or Mu and mutate further.

But, there is an easy way to statistically reduce this problem. Vaccinate everybody. Mandatory. Only exceptions are legitimate medical reasons. Not "personal freedom". Sure, breakthroughs will still happen - but they won't spread as much. Sure people will get side effects - but not as many as will suffer from Long COVID. And sure, your personal freedoms will be impinged. But all of us, together, will do better. So stop being such selfish SOBs, and quoting hack doctors and agenda driven websites, and stop being such pussies (is that an allowed word?) about "unproven, experimental vaccines". You want to really help? Get the shot.

Right now, it's the best any of us can do for all of us.

</rant>

I agree of course about vaccines, but mandatory I don't agree with. Where we can agree is that people who are unvaccinated should not be able to get on the same plane or eat in the same restaurant as vaccinated because they have a higher likelihood of carrying and/or transmitting the virus. The issue is 'higher' - even vaccinated people can also carry and spread it. But that is why I would add to that law, the requirement to have a rapid antigen test first.  In other words - to enter this plane you must have a vaccine passport/proof before you can buy a ticket (and show that upon entering the airport) and you must pass a rapid antigen test as you enter the airport. If you fail then a full refund of your airfares will be given, because the cost of the ticket included a small fee for insurance against that when you arrive, and another when you leave the destination airport.  Same thing for other things to like indoor restaurants and outdoor large seated sporting events. Where to draw the line is a politician's job and good luck with that  

The problem with mandatory vaccines, now and in the past, is that it takes time to vaccinate everybody and with the 2 dose systems for most, it will take 2-3 months minimum even if there was enough supplies to give everyone a dose and enough staff to administer them - you are looking at 4-6 months at least in most countries. China is doing 20 million a day - at that rate it will still take 140 days for all to get 2 doses (5 months). 

[JamesE]

28 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

The suggestion that a pool of vaccinated people does cause the virus to mutate to something more contagious is not a proven assumption

This is the thing, exactly. It does not cause the virus to mutate. The virus is already doing that quite successfully. What it does do however, is provide an environment where it can test itself against both the vaccinated and un-vaxxed. If it passes the vax test it can return to the unvaccinated population for rapid build-up until it finds another vaccinated person to try its luck with. Just statistically, this is happening all around us, all the time.

As you point out, Delta developed in the pre-vaccine world. And now we've willingly given it an environment to select for mutations that can bypass the vaccine protection. Darwin would be doing back-flips watching this unfold.

[AussieBob]

17 hours ago, Poolie said:

Which of the 4238 Chinese medicine hospitals (in China itself) do you refer to? Or Paris, or London etc. where a degree in TCM is sought after?

Not that I'm any judge but Tu Youyou won a Nobel in 2015, for a TCM cure for malaria.

We are in 'violent agreement'.  Thanks for that information and I do accept that there are some very good medical professionals in TCM hospitals.  Yes, it was professional from one of them that conducted a scientific review with detailed analysis, and then conducted clinical trials which proved that the 'magic ingredient' (artemisinin) in a TCM treatment (sweet wormwood), was a successful treatment against Malaria.

Many 'western' medicines have come about because of scientific research to ascertain the active ingredient in 'traditional' remedies, and then clinical trials to scientifically prove that the ingredient works.  In this case the Nobel winner worked at the Medical University of Graz with numerous scientists from the China Academy of Chinese Medical Sciences, and rightly so was awarded a Nobel prize for their work. 

If there is ever a clinical study done by a reputable organisation about traditional medicines for Covid (not a PR statement released by a Chinese TCM Hospital), and it is backed up though peer review done by another reputable organisation, then I will accept that. But I will never take on face value a PR statement from a TCM Hospital, or in fact any medical professional that either claims or implies that something works as a Covid treatment. 

[AussieBob]

39 minutes ago, JamesE said:

This is the thing, exactly. It does not cause the virus to mutate. The virus is already doing that quite successfully. What it does do however, is provide an environment where it can test itself against both the vaccinated and un-vaxxed. If it passes the vax test it can return to the unvaccinated population for rapid build-up until it finds another vaccinated person to try its luck with. Just statistically, this is happening all around us, all the time.

As you point out, Delta developed in the pre-vaccine world. And now we've willingly given it an environment to select for mutations that can bypass the vaccine protection. Darwin would be doing back-flips watching this unfold.

Yep - Darwin was right, and his theory of evolution and survival of the strongest/smartest has been proven to be right so many times, and it will always be right.

[Poolie]

5 hours ago, AussieBob said:

We are in 'violent agreement'.  Thanks for that information and I do accept that there are some very good medical professionals in TCM hospitals.  Yes, it was professional from one of them that conducted a scientific review with detailed analysis, and then conducted clinical trials which proved that the 'magic ingredient' (artemisinin) in a TCM treatment (sweet wormwood), was a successful treatment against Malaria.

Many 'western' medicines have come about because of scientific research to ascertain the active ingredient in 'traditional' remedies, and then clinical trials to scientifically prove that the ingredient works.  In this case the Nobel winner worked at the Medical University of Graz with numerous scientists from the China Academy of Chinese Medical Sciences, and rightly so was awarded a Nobel prize for their work. 

If there is ever a clinical study done by a reputable organisation about traditional medicines for Covid (not a PR statement released by a Chinese TCM Hospital), and it is backed up though peer review done by another reputable organisation, then I will accept that. But I will never take on face value a PR statement from a TCM Hospital, or in fact any medical professional that either claims or implies that something works as a Covid treatment. 

Well Googled sir, couldn't have done better myself.

Have a great Sunday.

[AussieBob]

17 hours ago, Poolie said:

Well Googled sir, couldn't have done better myself.

Have a great Sunday.

Thanks - and we did 

Best way to learn something theses days - just google it. But you must learn how to recognise the differences between reasonable and qualified, and total khrapp rubbish websites.  No more need to ask a tradie or buy a book/magazine to take apart or install or put something together - and best way to 'fact check' something.

[HappyExpat]

2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Thanks - and we did 

Best way to learn something theses days - just google it. But you must learn how to recognise the differences between reasonable and qualified, and total khrapp rubbish websites.  No more need to ask a tradie or buy a book/magazine to take apart or install or put something together - and best way to 'fact check' something.

Most certainly look at Google searches with a skeptic's eye. DuckDuckGo.com, while a seemingly silly name, is another good source for independent search results and they do not track you.

As for determining a website's credibility, I use

 https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/

And I was recently introduced to another informative site:

https://www.poynter.org/ifcn/

Bottom line: There are far too many folks bent on spreading misinformation. You can't be too careful scrutinizing anything you see and hear on the net.

[AussieBob]

2 hours ago, HappyExpat said:

Most certainly look at Google searches with a skeptic's eye. DuckDuckGo.com, while a seemingly silly name, is another good source for independent search results and they do not track you.

As for determining a website's credibility, I use

 https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/

And I was recently introduced to another informative site:

https://www.poynter.org/ifcn/

Bottom line: There are far too many folks bent on spreading misinformation. You can't be too careful scrutinizing anything you see and hear on the net.

Yep - and the first few google results are usually ignored, and there is an app that I use to block google results from 'officially' declared fake news sites (Fox, CNN, etc).