Shifting political Covid views

[Bob20]

Germany is stopping free and mass Covid testing as per 11 October. Other countries are considering it as well.

Politicians are now finally accepting that everyone will eventually be infected with Covid and that herd immunity may not happen, as the virus can be carried and transmitted by vaccinated individuals. There is no dead-end road for the virus and it will turn endemic.

In countries where vaccination levels are high, it is not necessary to get more statistics from tests and there it doesn't improve the situation either. There, there is no need to seal off clusters anymore and that is also one of the reasons why these countries are opening up. They need not know who is infected without symptoms to delay their vaccination to use the vaccine (in short supply) for another person first either.

To stop mass testing is not yet something we can do in Thailand, as not enough people have been vaccinated. With a still limited supply of vaccines, even knowing about 20.000 people a day that test positive and for whom vaccination can be delayed, means 20.000 others can take the vaccine that others would otherwise have taken unnecessarily. And 20.000 people with the virus taken off the streets, will slow down the spread of the virus, allowing others to be vaccinated without unnecessarily increasing their risks.

When we get to levels as western countries that are opening up, we can open up too.

I consider it a mistake with possibly severe effects to let the virus rip in a population where only a small proportion of people have been vaccinated. 

We are now empirically being experimented on and the next weeks will show what happens. Meanwhile protect yourself and stay safe.

[9S_]

27 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

We are now empirically being experimented on

Do you have proof of this? Or maybe were just living our lives. 

[Rain]

6 hours ago, 9S_ said:

 Or maybe were just living our lives. 

Existing for who?

[9S_]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

Existing for who?

Us our lives. 

[AdamX]

11 hours ago, Bob20 said:

Germany is stopping free and mass Covid testing as per 11 October. Other countries are considering it as well.

Politicians are now finally accepting that everyone will eventually be infected with Covid and that herd immunity may not happen, as the virus can be carried and transmitted by vaccinated individuals. There is no dead-end road for the virus and it will turn endemic.

In countries where vaccination levels are high, it is not necessary to get more statistics from tests and there it doesn't improve the situation either. There, there is no need to seal off clusters anymore and that is also one of the reasons why these countries are opening up. They need not know who is infected without symptoms to delay their vaccination to use the vaccine (in short supply) for another person first either.

To stop mass testing is not yet something we can do in Thailand, as not enough people have been vaccinated. With a still limited supply of vaccines, even knowing about 20.000 people a day that test positive and for whom vaccination can be delayed, means 20.000 others can take the vaccine that others would otherwise have taken unnecessarily. And 20.000 people with the virus taken off the streets, will slow down the spread of the virus, allowing others to be vaccinated without unnecessarily increasing their risks.

When we get to levels as western countries that are opening up, we can open up too.

I consider it a mistake with possibly severe effects to let the virus rip in a population where only a small proportion of people have been vaccinated. 

We are now empirically being experimented on and the next weeks will show what happens. Meanwhile protect yourself and stay safe.

I know Im on Bob20 ignore list, but his posts are invaluable in providing a starting point from which to demonstrate the opinion that the current covid response  is a form of mass psychosis

The following is my opinion only.

Politicians have realized that the current path of mass testing and lockdowns is a dead end.

Its inevitable that the virus will become endemic and herd immunity will arrive rapidly.

Slowly, but surely, the media and politicians will back off restrictions, all the while trumpeting the new narrative that had they not taken the steps they did, things would have been much worse.

This new narrative will be also supported by the ever decreasing number of forever-lockdown-mandatory-vaxers, who simply follow the mainstream. 

While I don't have numbers to support this, everyone I spoke to yesterday, who were happily dining and drinking from coke cans and paper cups in restraunts and and secret bars, have all started to wake up and question why they ever locked themselves down in the first place. 

The politicians and media social experiment on us has failed, and we need to hold them to account.

Mass testing should stop, it solves nothing, and is simply used to create a number to scare us.

Concerned people should get antibody test and then continue to mask and self isolate as long as they want.

Anyone who wants a vaccine should get one.

Its time to reclaim our lives and livelyhoods

[AussieBob]

I dont agree with everything said in the OP, but I agree that things are changing.  

The 'experts' that the politicians listen to (WHO and CDC etc), have finally accepted that Covid19 (SARS-CoV-2) is NOT a highly infectious version of SARS, and it will not (without vaccines and lockdowns) kill between 50-100 million people as first predicted. However, the facts are that it is a highly dangerous and highly contagious viral infection that people everywhere have little/no immunities. It is like Spanish Flue (H1N1) in that it is the first of its type and as already proven it has gone global, and like H1N1 it aint ever going away. 

 

You are going to get Covid one day - we all are.  It is impossible to stop it, and the experts are now realising that 70% or even 80% vaccination rates will not create herd immunity - Covid has evolved beyond that and it is here forever - just like the Spanish Flu and the Hong Kong flu and others. 

Therefore you have a simple question to ask yourself:  'Do I want to get vaccinated to reduce the risk of getting very ill or even dying from Covid - or do I want to take it on as I am now, with maybe some additional alternative medications to vaccines.

My decision is to take the vaccines - they are not guaranteed and they are not perfect but I will not rely on unproven medications. My choice is to take the risk of vaccine issues, rather than the risk of Covid issues as I am now.

[JamesE]

This was the subtext all along. It was hid behind niceties like "flatten the curve" but it was an underlying assumption that COVID would eventually get everybody and the goal was to keep hospitals and public health services from getting overwhelmed. Outside of India and parts of the American South, that's happened. Now that treatment protocols are in place the death rate has dropped way down so the problem becomes how do we keep the hospitals in business while this stuff runs its course.

Along with @AussieBobmy decision was to get vaxxed and play the odds. I've always figured that whatever small thing I could do: distance, face diapers, vaccine, etc., that would give me an edge was worth it just for that little extra protection. It adds up.

I think the silver lining to all of this was how well these basic practices can work. Last year in the US there were 600 flu deaths, compared to a typical year in the 10s of thousands range. The masking and distancing and handwashing that everyone was going through effectively stopped the flu season in its tracks. Will we remember for SARS-CoV-3? Probably not as a species, seeing how we completely ignored H1N1 data from 1918. But, if it hits in the next ten years or so, maybe some of us will.

[BlueSphinx]

23 hours ago, Bob20 said:

... I consider it a mistake with possibly severe effects to let the virus rip in a population where only a small proportion of people have been vaccinated. 

...

I consider it a mistake with already proven severe effects to mass-vaccinate in the middle of a pandemic. 

Doing so inevitably leads to new variants emerging, some of them more transmissible and dangerous, and the dreadful prospect of immune escape. 

Politicians are now forced to rethink their strategy as it is crystal clear that the holy grail of 'herd immunity' is not attainable anymore.  Vaccinated people not only can still get infected as vaccine protection wanes rapidly, but when they are they are a greater spreading danger (as the vaccine suppresses their symptoms when they are infected).

[Chaimai]

10 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

I consider it a mistake with already proven severe effects to mass-vaccinate in the middle of a pandemic. 

Doing so inevitably leads to new variants emerging, some of them more transmissible and dangerous, and the dreadful prospect of immune escape. 

Politicians are now forced to rethink their strategy as it is crystal clear that the holy grail of 'herd immunity' is not attainable anymore.  Vaccinated people not only can still get infected as vaccine protection wanes rapidly, but when they are they are a greater spreading danger (as the vaccine suppresses their symptoms when they are infected).

 

 

"severe effects".........please!

 

 

Regrettably, your obsession now gets you on my ignore list. Shame, because you don't post crap on other threads.

[AussieBob]

20 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

I consider it a mistake with already proven severe effects to mass-vaccinate in the middle of a pandemic. 

Doing so inevitably leads to new variants emerging, some of them more transmissible and dangerous, and the dreadful prospect of immune escape. 

Politicians are now forced to rethink their strategy as it is crystal clear that the holy grail of 'herd immunity' is not attainable anymore.  Vaccinated people not only can still get infected as vaccine protection wanes rapidly, but when they are they are a greater spreading danger (as the vaccine suppresses their symptoms when they are infected).

Easy now @BlueSphinx we are not agreeing with your position that much.  Yes, the vaccines have had a few bad reactions in very few people, but far more people get killed or injured on the roads worldwide and I dont hear anyone stating that they should be banned. Well actually there are a few nutters who do go that far - you know the anti-people save the planet idiots who demand we all live in caves again and die at 35 from teeth infections or a broken leg or an appendix attack or so many other things that used to kill us. 

If there is ever a clinical study done by a reputable organisation (not by that Chinese Natural Medicines place) and it is backed up though peer review done by another reputable organisation, that shows the widespread use of the vaccines caused Covid to mutate, then you will have been right - and then you can remind us all - fair enough.  But until then there is no official accepted and peer reviewed clinical study that shows "proven severe effects to mass-vaccinate in the middle of a pandemic". 

[BlueSphinx]

@AussieBob > Posted this already in another thread > a tweet by dr Robert Malone (credited as the inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology) on the topic of variants and immune escape.

 

 

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

I agree that there are more  variants coming. In fact, have you heard of the 'Mu' variant that was recently identified in LA?  Originated in Columbia. Fauci said,

 

“This variant has a constellation of mutations that suggests that it would evade certain antibodies, not only monoclonal antibodies, but vaccine- and convalescent serum-induced antibodies…But there isn’t a lot of clinical data to suggest that. It is mostly laboratory in-vitro data.”

The WHO is keeping a close eye on 'Mu' that has been identified in 39 countries.

https://deadline.com/2021/09/mu-variant-los-angeles-first-cases-new-covid-1234827340/

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:39 PM, Bob20 said:

Politicians are now finally accepting that everyone will eventually be infected with Covid and that herd immunity may not happen, as the virus can be carried and transmitted by vaccinated individuals.

Herd immunity or not, people are less likely to die and become hospitalized with full vaccination. I don't think  Germany is doing the right thing with this. I haven't checked to see how much of the country is fully vaxxed, but no matter. I read recently at least here in Canada we are trying to get 90% of individuals full vaxxed to not overrun the hospitals and ICU's with Covid patients. In Canada, only 20% of fully vaxxed people are in hospital. 

[Bob20]

8 minutes ago, Bubbleboy said:

Herd immunity or not, people are less likely to die and become hospitalized with full vaccination. I don't think  Germany is doing the right thing with this. I haven't checked to see how much of the country is fully vaxxed, but no matter. I read recently at least here in Canada we are trying to get 90% of individuals full vaxxed to not overrun the hospitals and ICU's with Covid patients. In Canada, only 20% of fully vaxxed people are in hospital. 

They're doing the same in Germany, only they are not venting the herd immunity tale anymore. It will become endemic. 

[Bubbleboy]

32 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

It will become endemic. 

Wouldn't it kill more people who are not vaccinated? Just 61.6% of the pop. of Germany have been double vaxxed. Doesn't make sense to me to stop mass vaccinations especially since Covid is on the rise there at the moment.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Bubbleboy

[Bob20]

2 minutes ago, Bubbleboy said:

Wouldn't it kill more people who are not vaccinated? Just 61.6% of the pop. of Germany have been double vaxxed. Doesn't make sense to me to stop mass vaccinations especially since Covid is on the rise there at the moment.

They're stopping mass -testing-.

[JamesE]

3 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Easy now @BlueSphinx we are not agreeing with your position that much.  Yes, the vaccines have had a few bad reactions in very few people, but far more people get killed or injured on the roads worldwide and I dont hear anyone stating that they should be banned. Well actually there are a few nutters who do go that far - you know the anti-people save the planet idiots who demand we all live in caves again and die at 35 from teeth infections or a broken leg or an appendix attack or so many other things that used to kill us. 

If there is ever a clinical study done by a reputable organisation (not by that Chinese Natural Medicines place) and it is backed up though peer review done by another reputable organisation, that shows the widespread use of the vaccines caused Covid to mutate, then you will have been right - and then you can remind us all - fair enough.  But until then there is no official accepted and peer reviewed clinical study that shows "proven severe effects to mass-vaccinate in the middle of a pandemic". 

<rant>

Sadly, I have to agree with @BlueSphinx on this. We are, by having a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people coexisting, creating pressure to select for variants that can get around the vaccines. But this is occurring the same way as we are creating an environment where infected and recovered people are creating an environment which selects for reinfection. The best thing to do right now is to vaccinate everybody. Whether they want to or not.

One of the things that is missing from this discussion is that - read this carefully - Delta's emergence preceded any public vaccination. It evolved in a vaccine-free environment. It just got lucky and is both easily transmissible and just happened to be less affected by the vaccine.

These variants are in a perfect place to move on from here because they already have a slight edge. Forget Delta, forget Mu. The ones we need to worry about are the ones who start from Delta or Mu and mutate further.

But, there is an easy way to statistically reduce this problem. Vaccinate everybody. Mandatory. Only exceptions are legitimate medical reasons. Not "personal freedom". Sure, breakthroughs will still happen - but they won't spread as much. Sure people will get side effects - but not as many as will suffer from Long COVID. And sure, your personal freedoms will be impinged. But all of us, together, will do better. So stop being such selfish SOBs, and quoting hack doctors and agenda driven websites, and stop being such pussies (is that an allowed word?) about "unproven, experimental vaccines". You want to really help? Get the shot.

Right now, it's the best any of us can do for all of us.

</rant>

Edited September 4, 2021 by JamesE
Spilling, clarification

[Bubbleboy]

7 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

They're stopping mass -testing-.

Yes, my error there. They need to be doing more mass vaccinations which I guess is why they are stopping rapid testing. 

[Bubbleboy]

5 minutes ago, JamesE said:

You want to really help? Get the shot.

Right now, it's the best any of us can do for all of us.

I agree with your post, but try talking to anti vaxxers is like banging my head against a brick wall!

[Bob20]

1 minute ago, Bubbleboy said:

Yes, my error there. They need to be doing more mass vaccinations which I guess is why they are stopping rapid testing. 

They are stopping the testing because now they accept that everyone will become infected with Covid and there will be no herd immunity.

And their population is vaccinated to a high degree. So, testing is then only useful if someone has symptoms, not so much to isolate them, but so they can treat early.

[Bubbleboy]

4 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

And their population is vaccinated to a high degree

61.6% isn't a high degree imo. I wish Germany the best though. I think testing is very important. 

[Bob20]

5 minutes ago, Bubbleboy said:

61.6% isn't a high degree imo. I wish Germany the best though. I think testing is very important. 

Opinions differ. 61% fully vaccinated is enough to take that decision.

I'd be happy if we were at even half that number here!

[Bubbleboy]

4 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Opinions differ. 61% fully vaccinated is enough to take that decision.

I'd be happy if we were at even half that number here!

Well just to compare, where I live we have 76% full vaccinated, but recently were told we need to get up to 90% to mitigate the increasing cases of Delta which are estimated to increase quite a bit, now that kids are going back to school and fall/winter is coming. So even with a higher vaccinated population you still have Delta spreading. Now we are getting vaccine passports which have forced more people to get vaccinated.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Bubbleboy

[Bob20]

2 minutes ago, Bubbleboy said:

Well just to compare, where I live we have 76% full vaccinated, but recently were told we need to get up to 90% to mitigate the increasing cases of Delta which are estimated to increase quite a bit, now that kids are going back to school and fall/winter is coming. So even with a higher vaccinated population you still have Delta spreading. Now we are getting vaccine passports which have forced more people to get vaccinated.

Yes, and I agree. This is exactly the same as in Germany. They want to get to 90% too. And they continue to mass-vaccinate. They just stop to mass-test.

[BlueSphinx]

21 minutes ago, JamesE said:

<rant>

Sadly, I have to agree with @BlueSphinx on this. We are, by having a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated people coexisting, creating pressure to select for variants that can get around the vaccines. But this is occurring the same way as we are creating an environment where infected and recovered people are creating an environment which selects for reinfection. The best thing to do right now is to vaccinate everybody. Whether they want to or not.

One of the things that is missing from this discussion is that - read this carefully - Delta's emergence preceded any public vaccination. It evolved in a vaccine-free environment. It just got lucky and is both easily transmissible and just happened to be less affected by the vaccine.

These variants are in a perfect place to move on from here because they already have a slight edge. Forget Delta, forget Mu. The ones we need to worry about are the ones who start from Delta or Mu and mutate further.

But, there is an easy way to statistically reduce this problem. Vaccinate everybody. Mandatory. Only exceptions are legitimate medical reasons. Not "personal freedom". Sure, breakthroughs will still happen - but they won't spread as much. Sure people will get side effects - but not as many as will suffer from Long COVID. And sure, your personal freedoms will be impinged. But all of us, together, will do better. So stop being such selfish SOBs, and quoting hack doctors and agenda driven websites, and stop being such pussies (is that an allowed word?) about "unproven, experimental vaccines". You want to really help? Get the shot.

Right now, it's the best any of us can do for all of us.

</rant>

Just for the record > I most certainly did NOT advocate the 'solution' of mandatory vaccination of the whole planet.  On the contrary, it is actually mass-vaccination that is creating the emergence of new variants and the horrible prospect of immune escape, and I am certainly not alone in that assessment as it has been publicly stated months ago by Nobel prize winner prof dr. Montagnier, and many other imminent scientists.

The fact of the matter is that these covid-vaccines are NOT sterilizing vaccines (and Pfizer/Moderna knew this damn well!), and will therefore INEVITABLY lead to immune-escape when applied for mass-vaccination.

Here an excerpt of an article written by KARL DENNINGER who does a very good job at explaining that principle which is well-known by all 1st year virologists/epidemiologists, but which Big Pharma deliberately overlooked when rolling-out these vaccines... and the whole world is now paying the price for their short-sighted greed.

To be sterilizing a vaccine must prevent infection.  Since you never get infected you never replicate the virus and thus do not shed it.  If you do not shed it the potential path of the viral life-cycle for that particular infection ends with you and thus you cannot pass on or cause a mutation. You are sterile against that disease; from the point of view of the virus you are a lifeless rock.  Among commonly-used sterilizing vaccines are MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), Varicella (chicken pox), OPV (oral polio) and others.  The only time that such a vaccine fails is when you do not build immunity (such as due to immune compromise.)  This is extremely rare and the protection from such vaccines tends to be either decades-long or lifetime.

A vaccine that is not sterilizing permits the virus to infect you and replicate and as a result you can infect others.  Technically it is not a vaccine at all (which by definition prevents infection); it is a prophylactic therapy.  Such a "vaccine" instead acts to reduce or eliminate symptomatic disease.  You don't know you're sick and you don't get sick.  You don't go to the hospital and you don't die.  Unfortunately since you don't know you're sick but are infected and the virus is both replicating in you and shedding you are more-likely to spread the infection to others.  All of the current Covid jabs are in this category and so is, for that matter IPV (injected polio vaccine -- the original Salk discovery.)