Thai Language thread

[Bluesofa]

5 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

What a great word, that was one for Google. Dipthong came with this chart BS, I hope it means more to you than it does to me, I have just realised that I could be a dipthong too.

 

 

เอีย    เอือ    อัว   according to wiki, there are three.
I've put them in order to line up with those at the top. I couldn't for the life of me follow the middle one in Latin script, but the first and third look right.

 

[Bluesofa]

Some more words that are 'pieced together', to quote the link from Marble-eye's recent post.

ของเก่า (kong-gaow) antiques   comes from  ของ (kong) things or possessions     เก่า (gaow) old or ancient (refers specifically to old things, not people or animals)

ออกเสียง (og-see-ang) pronounce   comes from ออก (og) out   (in this sense it obviously really means 'to project')   เสียง (see-ang) sound/voice/noise

ลดความเร็ว (lod-kwam-row) [like argument] reduce speed   comes from ลด (lod) reduce/decrease  ความเร็ว (kwam-row) speed.
This can further be broken down to: ความ (kwam) [sort of means] 'sense'   เร็ว (row) fast

You can see ลดความเร็ว (lod-kwam-row) on the road a lot, either on signposts or painted on the road immediately before a junction or a hazard.

 

This prefix ความ (kwam) is often used to modify the meaning of a word.

A long explanation from my Thai-English dictionary describes it as: fact, matter, effect, topic, substance, subject.
 

A good example is ความร้อน (kwam-rorn) heat   comes from ความ (kwam) 'sense'   ร้อน (hot)

Other examples:

ความจริง (kwam-ching) truth   comes from  ความ (kwam) 'sense'    จริง (ching)  true/really

ความคิด (kwam-kit) thought/idea   comes from ความ (kwam) 'sense'    คิด (kit) think

ความจำ (kwam-jam) memory    comes from  ความ (kwam) 'sense'    จำ (jam) remember

(I used ความจำ (kwam-jam) when I was asking about memory chips in a computer shop. That instance worked fine)

[Bluesofa]

Now while I don’t want to scare people off who maybe starting to learn Thai, I think it’s useful to at least understand a bit more about the logistics of the language.

In order to be clear when speaking Thai, the way the words are pronounced are important in two ways.
One, the tone. Two, the length of the vowel (affecting the overall word length).

Here are just four examples of long & short vowels. We won't worry about the tones for these.
Each pair of words following have the same tone, so if you change the vowel length, the word has a different meaning:

กอ (gor) long vowel - a clump  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=กอ &op=translate   
เกาะ (gor) short vowel - island  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=เกาะ &op=translate  

นาย (nai) long vowel – Mister (title for a man)  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=นาย &op=translate   
ใน (nai) short vowel – 'in' or 'in the' https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ใน &op=translate    

 

ไส่ (sai) short vowel – to put or to place something somewhere https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ไส่ &op=translate   
ส่าย (sai) long vowel - to swing or sway https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ส่าย &op=translate     

 

ไม่ (mai) short vowel - no, or not https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ไม่ &op=translate    
หม้าย (mai) long vowel - a widow https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=หม้าย &op=translate  

While I'd be quite prepared to explain about the tone rules, it requires one to know about the Thai consonants.
The forty-four (definitely!) are split into three different groups, which affect the tone rules in different ways.

I have a crib sheet that I've had in my wallet for years, in case to I need to look up which consonants belong to which three groups. Most the the consonants which are commonly used I can remember.

As per Dwizzley's post earlier in the week pointing out that quite a few of these consonants were used for Pali words, and so I assume are hardly used these days used, so that's effectively a bit less to worry about. 

[Marble-eye]

So what is confusing (for me anyway) is when we get two vowels together, e.g to use the word เก่า, which vowel takes priority, do we say the า before the เ or Vice versa or are they said together?

 

[Marble-eye]

13 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

So what is confusing (for me anyway) is when we get two vowels together, e.g to use the word เก่า, which vowel takes priority, do we say the า before the เ or Vice versa or are they said together?

Incidentally I have just put เก่า in Google translate and it comes out as 'gow,' no า (Sera aah).

But my hearing failing by the hour.

[DwizzleyMatthews]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

Incidentally I have just put เก่า in Google translate and it comes out as 'gow,' no า (Sera aah).

But my hearing failing by the hour.

This is where my app comes in indispensable, as you can see from the chart it’s not two vowels but one either side of the consonant producing the “ow” sound

[Bluesofa]

2 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Incidentally I have just put เก่า in Google translate and it comes out as 'gow,' no า (Sera aah).

But my hearing failing by the hour.

As you can see from Dwizzley's chart, the vowel you're asking about is a composite vowel. It's two individual vowels which together produce a single sound 'ow'.
The thing with writing Thai script in English, is a) it's limitations with the sounds English has, and b) different people, different nationalities can tend to pronounce the same letters differently.

The best I can think of for เ-า is the word 'how', without the 'h' sound. Or even 'ouch' without the 'ch' ending.

As you've said เกา becomes gow.   เดา becomes dow,  เพา becomes pow (or even pao) - could be the same sound using a different Latin script spelling.

The only vowel I would take exception to in Dwizzley's list is เอ listed as ee? To my mind that should be 'ay' ('hay' without the 'h')
The best example I can think of is เอ ไอ เอส - AIS, the mobile phone company's name in Thai script.

[DwizzleyMatthews]

2 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

As you can see from Dwizzley's chart, the vowel you're asking about is a composite vowel. It's two individual vowels which together produce a single sound 'ow'.
The thing with writing Thai script in English, is a) it's limitations with the sounds English has, and b) different people, different nationalities can tend to pronounce the same letters differently.

The best I can think of for เ-า is the word 'how', without the 'h' sound. Or even 'ouch' without the 'ch' ending.

As you've said เกา becomes gow.   เดา becomes dow,  เพา becomes pow (or even pao) - could be the same sound using a different Latin script spelling.

The only vowel I would take exception to in Dwizzley's list is เอ listed as ee? To my mind that should be 'ay' ('hay' without the 'h')
The best example I can think of is เอ ไอ เอส - AIS, the mobile phone company's name in Thai script.

Exactly BS , when I tap on เอ the sound is “ ay “, not sure why that is written as “ee”. 

I struggle with the transcripts, they often seem to be an additional learning process and have to be memorised. The written “ii” pronounced as “ee” gets me every time, despite my affinity with a European language that uses the same pronunciation.

The only saving grace is that Thai letters only have one pronunciation unlike English with its multi pronounced letters.

Another example, that my dil presented to her class was the different pronunciation of the letter “o” in the words:

done, gone and bone .

[Bluesofa]

10 hours ago, DwizzleyMatthews said:

The written “ii” pronounced as “ee” gets me every time

Which one is that, I can't see 'ii' in your latest screenshot?

I'm guessing you might mean   ี  as to me that's the obvious one. 
Like this: https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ผี &op=translate   

Sure, Engrish is a difficult language to learn if it's not your mother tongue. As a kid you just accept what you're told and it sticks in there, as you normally don't have any other language to compare it too.

Even if I wanted to sound condescending, I could write it as 'there, their, they're'.
I like English puns, all those plays on words. It's definitely my sense of humour.
Or this one:
'My teacher said I had fertile imagination. Or was it futile? I could never read her writing.'
(I've got Pat. Pending on that one)
 

[DwizzleyMatthews]

28 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

Which one is that, I can't see 'ii' in your latest screenshot?

I'm guessing you might mean   ี  as to me that's the obvious one. 
Like this: https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ผี &op=translate   

Sure, Engrish is a difficult language to learn if it's not your mother tongue. As a kid you just accept what you're told and it sticks in there, as you normally don't have any other language to compare it too.

Even if I wanted to sound condescending, I could write it as 'there, their, they're'.
I like English puns, all those plays on words. It's definitely my sense of humour.
Or this one:
'My teacher said I had fertile imagination. Or was it futile? I could never read her writing.'
(I've got Pat. Pending on that one)
 

Yes, you are right BS  ี  

As with เอ i find the transcript sometimes throws me off track, much better to memorise the consonants/vowels by their actual sounds.

 

 

[Bluesofa]

10 minutes ago, DwizzleyMatthews said:

Yes, you are right BS  ี  

As with เอ i find the transcript sometimes throws me off track, much better to memorise the consonants/vowels by their actual sounds.

I agree entirely about listening to the sounds. As we keep saying here, English is just too subjective when trying to write Thai sounds.
I'm pleased I've managed to be able to post the link to Google translate successfully, to words I've written in Thai, then people can listen to it.

These are two Thai sounds you just can't write in Latin script:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=เมือง &op=translate 
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=งู &op=translate 
 

[BigHewer]

1 hour ago, Bluesofa said:

These are two Thai sounds you just can't write in Latin script:
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=เมือง &op=translate 
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=งู &op=translate 

My wife and I just listened to the second one five times and couldn’t decide how to write it in roman script. It’s kind of like the noise you make when you remember you forgot to do the dishes. Perhaps an emoji would be better. or ?

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, BigHewer said:

My wife and I just listened to the second one five times and couldn’t decide how to write it in roman script. It’s kind of like the noise you make when you remember you forgot to do the dishes. Perhaps an emoji would be better. or ?

I couldn't find a snake, will a scorpion do? 
The second one has a consonant called ngor ngoo - snake.

I remember seeing someone wrote that in English we use it all the time, but at the end of words, not the beginning:  song, sing, ding, dong. tong.

Then add a vowel afterwards, like single, tingle.  If you add 'oo' to sing - singoo. Say it a few times, then try it without the initial 'si'.
I know there's the tendency to say 'goo', rather than 'ngoo', but with a bit of practice...

[BigHewer]

1 hour ago, Bluesofa said:

Then add a vowel afterwards, like single, tingle.  If you add 'oo' to sing - singoo. Say it a few times, then try it without the initial 'si'.
I know there's the tendency to say 'goo', rather than 'ngoo', but with a bit of practice...

That actually works. Right then. I shall never, ever forget the Thai word for snake. 

Thank you, you have quite the knack for explaining the unexplainable

[Bluesofa]

After talking about long and short vowels, I worry if I'm going out on a limb trying to talk about tones here?

Now without going into the details about how to recognise the tones when reading Thai script, let's keep it (fairly!) straightforward.

There are five tones in Thai. You can see them below, along with an indicator showing how each one is represented. (Something else I have Pat. Pending on)
(Just don't ask me why 'flat' (no tone) is regarded as a tone. Maybe to indicate none of the others are used)

— Flat (no tone)      High tone (straight up)      Low tone (straight down)
^ Falling tone (up, then down)     ˅ Rising tone (down, then up) 

Using these, let's have a look at how the tone affects the same word:
 

                                                                 ^ 
all sound like 'chang': ช้าง elephant     ช่าง tradesman/technician/mechanic
 

                                —                            ^            
all sound like 'chai': ชาย man’s name     ใช่ yes     ใช้ use

                              —                                                ˅
all sound like 'mee': มี have     หมี่ Chinese noodles     หมี bear

 

                               —                                                           ^                              
all sound like 'yar': ยา medicine    อย่า don't    หย่า divorce    ย่า paternal

                           ^ 
grandmother    หญ้า grass

 

                               —                  ˅                  
all sound like 'mar': มา come     หมา dog      ม้า horse

 

                                 ^                          ˅     
all sound like 'mor': หม้อ saucepan      หมอ doctor

 

                              ^                     
all sound like 'kee': ขี้ excrement      ขี่ ride (a motorbike or a horse)

 

                                                                                                                                                 
From the above you can see if you say 'kee mar' with the wrong tones, it can either

                    ^  ˅                          
mean either ขี้หมา dog poop, or ขี่ม้า  to ride a horse.

 

If anyone is still reading - and can follow any of this, I'd welcome any questions. There are (to me anyway) some obvious ones.

 

 

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, BigHewer said:

That actually works. Right then. I shall never, ever forget the Thai word for snake. 

Thank you, you have quite the knack for explaining the unexplainable

Very kind of you.
Next week I'll be turning water into wine.
edit: Or it could be wine into water, purely with the use of my stomach.

[BigHewer]

21 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

From the above you can see if you say 'kee mar' with the wrong tones, it can either

                    ^  ˅                          
mean either ขี้หมา dog poop, or ขี่ม้า  to ride a horse.

If anyone is still reading - and can follow any of this, I'd welcome any questions. There are (to me anyway) some obvious ones.

Quite a few of us are still reading, @Bluesofa, a very informative thread!

I’ll keep that last entry in mind next time I rent a horse on Hua Hin beach 🏖

[Marble-eye]

I remember spending a short time in Koh Chang and got talking to a couple of Belgium guys, he said he once called someone to come and instead of saying มา (come) he said หมา (dog), so does putting that 'h' in front of มา change the tone too.

For long enough I used to call the two benched taxis as songtaew and instead of coming out as two seater, I was saying two breasts.

[Bluesofa]

4 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

I remember spending a short time in Koh Chang and got talking to a couple of Belgium guys, he said he once called someone to come and instead of saying มา (come) he said หมา (dog), so does putting that 'h' in front of มา change the tone too.

For long enough I used to call the two benched taxis as songtaew and instead of coming out as two seater, I was saying two breasts.

Yes, what you've said is spot-on!
The "มา come     หมา dog" is a perfect example of one of the many tone rules.
By 'inserting ห in front of the normal first consonant, it makes it change the 'tone class' of the consonant (from 'low' in this particular case) to 'high' class.

It means that (ignoring any tone markers for a second), the word will have a rising tone. Remember "Rising tone (down, then up)"?

นา field [flat, no tone]     หนา thick (as in not thin) [rising tone]

Now the same spelling, with the tone marker  อ้  mai-toe [my spelling to make it easier to read]

I hope it's only your hearing failing, as there's a vowel which looks close to mai-toe. It's this one อั called sara [vowel] 'a' [edit: it's name is mai-han-argad], pronounced as the short 'a' in 'fat'  A good example is พัทยา   (Pattaya) 

So, back to the tone marker:
น้า aunt [high tone]   หน้า face (also page of a book) [falling tone] 

 

I'm trying to think what happened with 'songtaew and instead of coming out as two seater, I was saying two breasts'?
How did breasts manage to get in there? สองแถว seems nothing like นม. Spill the beans.

[Marble-eye]

19 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

I'm trying to think what happened with 'songtaew and instead of coming out as two seater, I was saying two breasts'?
How did breasts manage to get in there? สองแถว seems nothing like นม. Spill the beans.

Not sure BS, but สองแถว actually translates as two row, but I have asked my wife and she cannot remember, actually she doesn't know what I'm talking about. However we have some friends coming to visit us on Thursday and my wife's friend may be able to shed some light on it, as it was her that originally mentioned it.

[Bluesofa]

1 minute ago, Marble-eye said:

Not sure BS, but สองแถว actually translates as two row, but I have asked my wife and she cannot remember, actually she doesn't know what I'm talking about. However we have some friends coming to visit us on Thursday and my wife's friend may be able to shed some light on it, as it was her that originally mentioned it.

Agreed about the meaning of songthaew, as the origin of the word, having two rows. Yet another good example of how Thai words are formed.

I wait with baited breath to discover more about breasts.

[Marble-eye]

Two other confusing words are near and far. They sound very much the same to me. 

 

ใกล้ Glai (near) and ไกล Glai (far) 

So are both the vowels at the beginning of the words pronounced the same 'eye'.

 

 

 

 

[Bluesofa]

37 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Two other confusing words are near and far. They sound very much the same to me. 

ใกล้ Glai (near) and ไกล Glai (far) 

So are both the vowels at the beginning of the words pronounced the same 'eye'.

Yes, they both have that (short) 'eye'. same spelling, apart from the tone.

  ^                                           —           
ใกล้ Glai (near) [falling tone]      ไกล Glai (far) [flat - no tone]

I have trouble hearing the difference when it's spoken.

However, when saying it myself, or writing it, there's a weird way I remember the difference:
Near has a falling tone - the tone goes 'up and down' as if it's coming back from where it started, so quite close.
Far has no tone 'cos the tone just goes straight out, and doesn't 'come back'

You must think I've been drinking, coming out with that!  It's honestly the way I remember it.

[Bluesofa]

 

Remember this part I posted to hopefully help people understand how to pronounce the tones:
— Flat (no tone)      High tone (straight up)      Low tone (straight down)
^ Falling tone (up, then down)     ˅ Rising tone (down, then up) 

                             ˅
We also had  ออกเสียง (og-see-ang)) to pronounce. It's also used  to utter, to vote, to voice.
(I read about the other uses, I didn't know them)

                    
However, ออก (og) has many different uses. Quite often it's a prefix for other things.

   — 
ออกไป (og-by) to go out, or leave.

           —  —                                                                                     
Now  ออกเดินทาง  (og-durn-tang)  changes it to mean depart, or departure.

                                —  —                                           —                             —      
This comes from เดินทาง (durn-tang) to travel.  เดิน (durn) walk      ทาง (tang) way [as in a route or pathway]

                    ^
Although เที่ยว (tee-ow) is the more informal word, the previous one is formal and tends to be used in composite words.

  —  —  — ˅                                                                              — ˅
 เดินทางมาถึง (durn-tang-mar-tung) is arrival. This is comes from: มาถึง (mar-tung)  come to, or arrive.

 

[Bluesofa]

— Flat (no tone)      High tone (straight up)      Low tone (straight down)
^ Falling tone (up, then down)     ˅ Rising tone (down, then up) 

More 'pieced together' stuff:
 —                                                                                               —                               
เรียนจบ (ree-an-jub) graduate (from college)  comes from เรียน (ree-an) learn    จบ (jub) finish
(there are a few words for complete/finish, depending on the context - so maybe next time!)

                                                ˅
This is appearing again:  ออกเสียง (og-see-ang) to pronounce, to utter, to vote, to voice, - so need to know context here too.

 ^   ^                                                              ^                         ^          
เลือกตั้ง (luak-tang) to vote  comes from เลือก (luak) choose  ตั้ง (tang) setup (as in group)

 —   —                                                                  —                                                                            —      
การเมือง (gan-muang) politics    comes from การ (gan) action/work/task. Usually a prefix.  เมือง (muang) city/capital/country

 — 
การ (gan) ends in ร (r), but it is pronounced as 'n'. Often words or syllables ending in ร (r) or ล (l) are pronounced as น -'n'.

And finally, talking about voting, I see Thai sometimes borrows the English word:
โหวต  (wote) - note the 'w', as there's no 'v' in Thai.   The 't' at the end is the consonant ต which is sounded like a cross between 'd' and 't', basically a hard sounding 'd'.                                                            
If you pronounced it with a soft 'd (ด)' it would be:  โหวด (wode) a steam whistle.

 

Do the (Engrish) tone signs above the Thai script line up directly above the words?
I don't know if different devices/browsers will display the same. Please let me know. If it's not lining up, I may need a re-think.