Thai Language thread

[Bluesofa]

  On 12/16/2021 at 2:25 AM, lpc said:

Now that I've heard of that, I'm sure I would experience that in the future frequently since I can't read Thai symbols yet. 

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That will only take you ten minutes to learn. Well, give or take a couple of years (sorry, you'll get used to my sense of humour).

There's forty-four consonants, including two that are obsolete, but aren't really. That was due to a not-too-clear royal proclamation by Rama VI that was actually to do with the civil service using the typewriter.

There's also thirty-two vowels (including combinations of vowels) just to keep it simple.

Seriously though, don't feel overwhelmed about it. As with most things, you start by learning the basics and the easy stuff first.
My Thai teacher gave me an ABC of the Thai alphabet for elementary school kids with really easy short words to learn at the beginning.

Then as time goes on you will realise you can read Thai script on signs.
I remember a German guy I was helping to read Thai a few years ago. After a few weeks he told me he could read the sign on a skytrain station in Bangkok - บางนา - Bangna.

If you want to know anything, please feel free to ask.

[Bluesofa]

A few months ago, I mentioned about the striped horse:

"Having said that, for us ferangs we can see funny words made up from others:
ม้าลาย = Zebra. I'm sure we're aware of the joke about a zebra is a horse wearing pyjamas. In Thai it's a 'striped horse' "

Just now, my wife's four-year-old niece was doing her homework. There was a drawing of a zebra, so of course I said it was wearing pyjamas.
Her niece was indignant, "Of course it's not a horse, it's a zebra!"

To which my wife said to her it might be a horse in prison (striped suit).
Yet again the niece was adamant it was a zebra.

Poor kid has no chance when we mess her about like this!

[Bluesofa]

Who invented the Thai typewriter? Who was responsible for the Thai alphabet missing two consonants?
It’s all down to a ferang.

The Thai typewriter was invented in 1891 by Edwin Hunter McFarland, the second son of Samuel Gamble McFarland, an American missionary in Bangkok.
Edwin was born in Bangkok in 1866 and later served in the Ministry of Education.

He modified a typewriter made by Smith Premier Company while back in the USA.
Despite his best efforts to fit in all the Thai characters onto the keyboard, he didn't succeed because his adapted keyboard didn’t have enough keys.

Finally, Edwin decided it was necessary to exclude two characters from the typewriter.
As he was fluent in Thai, he was aware both Khor Khoat and Khor Khun were ‘dead consonants’ and could be replaced by using other consonants.
 

He brought the first Thai typewriter back to Siam to present it to King Rama V in 1892. Rama V was so impressed he immediately ordered twenty for the Royal Thai Court.

Later, when (IIRC around 1920) Rama VI issued a decree that the Thai civil service were all to use the new-fangled typewriter, there was a (not too clear) note of explanation that instead of using the missing Khor Khoat and Khoh Khun they should use Khor Kai and Khor Kwai instead.

It basically said "right now it's no longer in use" which caused people to misunderstand that it was an official announcement to abolish its use.

This is why for more than a hundred years now when kids are taught the Thai alphabet, these two consonants are listed at the end as ‘obsolete’ (but they’re still taught them).

The good news:
If you look at a standard Thai computer keyboard, you can see Khor Khoat and Khoh Khun are now in use again (just above the Enter key).

[Vince]

  On 9/1/2021 at 1:31 AM, Bluesofa said:

Can you explain 'consonant cluster'. Do you mean double consonants as the first two letters, or perhaps the start and end consonants to determine the tone? I'm assuming it's the latter?

The transliteration thing to my mind (ignoring the RTGS) is very subjective owing to two alphabets/abugida  not aligning directly.
Plus different European languages sound the same consonants and vowels differently to others.

'Mess with our heads' is a good way to describe it.
When I used to ask my first Thai teacher questions all the time, she got fed up with me (ha ha!) and after saying, "Just listen and accept it," I always replied, "But I'm not Thai. At school we were all told by the teacher to "Keep asking it you don't understand."
In the end, when I asked awkward questions, my Thai teacher would just say, "We do that just to make it difficult for ferangs to learn Thai."

I suppose it's one of those things as a native speaker you know instinctively what's correct, but can't always easily explain why.
I know when I'm proofreading text from non-native English speakers I have the same situation.

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"We do that just to make it difficult for ferangs to learn Thai.

hilarious

[Bluesofa]

Sometimes there are 'long-winded' English phrases that are just as long-winded in Thai.

Fabric conditioner is a good example. It's น้ำยาปรับผ้านุ่ม  (nam-yar-brab-par-num)
I have trouble remembering it, as it's not an often-used phrase, so have it written down for whenever I need to buy more.

It's made up from:
น้ำยา (nam-yar) a liquid solution
ปรับ (brab) to adjust
ผ้า (par) cloth/fabric
นุ่ม (num) soft
 

Another made up word 'washing up detergent' นำ้ยาล้างจาน (nam-yar-lang-jan)

This one comes from:
นำ้ยา (nam-yar) a liquid solution
ล้าง (lang) to wash*
จาน (jan) plates/dishes

*wash. There are different words in Thai, depending on what you are washing:
ล้าง (lang) items, e.g. dishes, vehicle
ซัก (sak) clothes, hair
อาบ (ab) your body
 

[Bluesofa]

More on some Thai words and how they are put together.

สวนสัตว์ (suan-sat) zoo. The first part of the word สวน (suan) means a garden, or a park. The second part สัตว์ (sat) means animal/animals (there’s usually no plurals in Thai). So the Thai word for zoo really means an animal park. That one seems pretty logical.

Now I’m sure we’re all aware that Thais quite often use the English word ‘condom’ in Thai language these days. There is however a Thai word:
ถุงยางอนามัย (tung-yang-anamai) condom. ถุง (tung) a general word often used for bag, ยาง (yang) rubber (from the tree), อนามัย (anamai) hygienic. So we end up with a hygienic rubber bag.

ท่อยาง (tor-yang) hosepipe. ท่อ (tor) pipe/tube/duct, ยาง (yang) rubber.
A rubber pipe - even though it’s often plastic these days.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, not quite so obvious:
หัวหน้า (hua-na) boss/chief/head.
หัว (hua or huwer) head (on top of your shoulders), หน้า (na) face/front.
That’s a head face, or a front head.

[Faraday]

Perhaps you can explain next, about Glasses (for sight) & Sunglasses.

Kapom hua-na.

[Bluesofa]

  On 7/4/2022 at 1:28 PM, Faraday said:

Perhaps you can explain next, about Glasses (for sight) & Sunglasses.

Kapom hua-na.

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No problem.

แว่นตากันแดด (waen-da-dead).  แว่น (waen) glasses/spectacles, ตา (da) eyes, กัน (gan) with/together, แดด (dead) sun.  Sometimes กัน (gan) with/together gets missed out.

On the same subject, there's ตาบอดสี (dabord-see) colour blind. ตาบอด (dabord) blind, สี (see) colour.

[Bluesofa]

Something definitely fishy.

Shellfish generally is called หอย (hoy)

Then we can get more specific:

หอยแมลงภู่ (hoy-ma-laeng-poo) mussels

หอยแขง (hoy-kaeng) scallops

หอยกาบ (hoy-kab) clams

Why Thais tend to use หอย as a slang word for that certain part of the female anatomy:  It's because mussels/clams look very similar when opening, to that ‘other bit’

If you want a slap round the chops (that’s not seafood), you could always try this:

ผมชอบกินหอย … แต่ไม่ชอบอาหารทะเล (pom-chawp-gin-hoy ... dare-my-chawp-ahan-talay) I like eating hoy - but don’t like seafood
 

Moving on quickly:

กุ้ง (gung) shrimps

ปลาฉลาม (bla-cha-lam) shark

ปลาวาฬ (bla-waan) whale
Don’t confuse this part วาฬ (waan) for whale with หวาน (waan) sweet (sweet-tasting)

The 'sweet' version has a rising tone, which means the word is pronounced by making the voice going downwards, then upwards.
I think that’s enough for today, assuming anyone is still reading...

[Faraday]

I'm reading it with great interest, dearie. 

[Faraday]

  On 1/23/2022 at 3:10 AM, Bluesofa said:

wash. There are different words in Thai, depending on what you are washing:
ล้าง (lang) items, e.g. dishes, vehicle
ซัก (sak) clothes, hair
อาบ (ab) your body

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Just re-reading your fine posts, & I have question.

Why is having a Shower ab-nam & not ab-lang?

Or dearie, have I missed summink? (strong possibility)

[Marble-eye]

Staying on the shower theme the head of the shower is called a fak bua (ฝักบัว) the same name as the lotus head without the flowers.

How do the little tadpoles work above the ฟ and บ, presumably tone markers?

[Faraday]

The fruits from the Lotus head are delicious, sort of like hi-so peas. Jing jing!

[Bluesofa]

  On 7/12/2022 at 6:45 AM, Faraday said:

Just re-reading your fine posts, & I have question.

Why is having a Shower ab-nam & not ab-lang?

Or dearie, have I missed summink? (strong possibility)

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I really don't know. I'm just making up an answer to fit the facts:
ab is to bathe, so bathe in water.

Perhaps it's perceived differently by Thais, or they just use the words and don't worry about the etymology.

[Bluesofa]

  On 7/12/2022 at 7:03 AM, Marble-eye said:

Staying on the shower theme the head of the shower is called a fak bua (ฝักบัว) the same name as the lotus head without the flowers.

How do the little tadpoles work above the ฟ and บ, presumably tone markers?

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Them thar tadpoloes: ฝักบัว

The are both the same vowel,  like a short 'a', not tone markers
The first one above ฟ makes it 'a' as in fak.
The second one has a ว linked to it, making it a composite vowel, so it becomes oo-wa, making it b-oo-waa or bua.

Thanks for asking.

[Bluesofa]

How long do you think the phrase sawasdee has been in the Thai language?
A couple of centuries perhaps?

Not quite that long. In fact, only since about 1942.

When Thais used to greet each other it was more common to ask 'Sabai dee mai' (how are are you?), or 'Gin cow reu yang' (have you eaten yet?)
The was no really used form of greeting.

The word sawatdi was invented in the 1930s by Phraya Upakit Silapasan, a linguist at Chulalongkorn University.

He used the Sanskrit word ‘svasti’ which means ‘well being’ or ‘blessing’

In 1942 a really nice guy Field Marshal Plaek Phibunsongkhram (well OK, he was a dictator and prime minister from 1938-44 and 1948-57) was very nationalistic and pushed the use of the new-fangled ‘sawasdee’.
It appears to have caught on quite well.

The other use of the Sanskrit word ‘svasti’

There’s a few Asian cultures (and some others) that used what is now known as the Nazi party Swastika.

About the same time as the Thai word was invented, the Nazis were looking for a symbol for their own use.. So they copied the one that was used for thousands of years. The name swastika was also copied, as it comes from the same Sanskrit source svasti (romanised to svastika).

So now every time you say sawasdee to someone, you probably won’t be able to forget it’s evil other use.

[Marble-eye]

Why does Google translate use an 'x' to illustrate how a word sounds.

I just cannot see how they get 'ab' out of อาบ. The rest of the sentence I see.

Is it true that อ can be used as a vowel as well as a consonant and if so, is it pronounced the same?

[Bluesofa]

  On 7/13/2022 at 10:19 AM, Marble-eye said:

Why does Google translate use an 'x' to illustrate how a word sounds.

I just cannot see how they get 'ab' out of อาบ. The rest of the word I see.

Is it true that อ can be used as a vowel as well as a consonant and if so, is it pronounced the same?

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It becomes a bit involved. อ ( it's called 'or ang').

If we stick with อาบ then  า is 'ar' and  บ is 'b', so you could argue it's really 'arb' for 'ab'.

One of the twenty million rules of Thai grammar and spelling (argh!!) say that some vowels can't be the first letter in a word. า is one of them. So we have to use อ in front as a silent filler (padding) to keep it looking right (ha ha!).

Google transliteration is sometime straightforward, and sometimes absolute rubbish if you're not aware of how it should sound.

Not only 'pi' for 'by' (that's fairly close),  'xab' for 'ab',  but also 'na' for 'nam'.
It's obviously computer generated so it will sometimes be wrong.

Sometimes you just end up having to 'go with it' and accept it. I spent a long time trying to use ferang logic to argue why it didn't seem right.

When I constantly kept asking my first Thai teacher these insane questions, she responded by saying, "We just do it to make it difficult for ferangs to learn Thai."

[Marble-eye]

  On 7/13/2022 at 11:14 AM, Bluesofa said:

It becomes a bit involved. อ ( it's called 'or ang').

If we stick with อาบ then  า is 'ar' and  บ is 'b', so you could argue it's really 'arb' for 'ab'.

One of the twenty million rules of Thai grammar and spelling (argh!!) say that some vowels can't be the first letter in a word. า is one of them. So we have to use อ in front as a silent filler (padding) to keep it looking right (ha ha!).

Google transliteration is sometime straightforward, and sometimes absolute rubbish if you're not aware of how it should sound.

Not only 'pi' for 'by' (that's fairly close),  'xab' for 'ab',  but also 'na' for 'nam'.
It's obviously computer generated so it will sometimes be wrong.

Sometimes you just end up having to 'go with it' and accept it. I spent a long time trying to use ferang logic to argue why it didn't seem right.

When I constantly kept asking my first Thai teacher these insane questions, she responded by saying, "We just do it to make it difficult for ferangs to learn Thai."

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That makes sense, so a word like ออก (exit) would you likewise make the first อ silent?

[Bluesofa]

  On 7/13/2022 at 11:26 AM, Marble-eye said:

That makes sense, so a word like ออก (exit) would you likewise make the first อ silent?

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Yes, that's a good example. อ sometimes seems to be used as vowel, although it isn't really a vowel.
I don't know if the first อ is used as filler and the second one is a vowel? That's difficult to me to know why.
I'm not the smart-arse I thought I was.

Thai words don't always need vowels the way English nearly always does. For example:

ลง (long) go down/descend

รถ (rot) car/vehicle

ตก (dok) fall down

สวน (suan) garden/park

ส้วม (suam) toilet/cesspit

Above are just five words I can think of without a Thai vowel in them.

[Bluesofa]

Side-track!

English worms without vowels:

Fly, Hymn, Lynx, Myth, Rhythm, Sync, Crypt, Dryly, Glyph, Lymph, Lynch, Nymph, Pygmy, Shyly, Slyly, Tryst,  Wryly, Why.

[Marble-eye]

  On 7/13/2022 at 12:04 PM, Bluesofa said:

Side-track!

English worms without vowels:

Fly, Hymn, Lynx, Myth, Rhythm, Sync, Crypt, Dryly, Glyph, Lymph, Lynch, Nymph, Pygmy, Shyly, Slyly, Tryst,  Wryly, Why.

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But could it be argued BS that the letter 'Y' becomes a vowel just like French the Y is a vowel, we share the same alphabet but the French have six vowels, both our languages are very closely linked. Je ne sais pas.

Just to complicate matters I have just googled the letter Y and it is sometimes called a 'semi vowel' 

But back to Thai, the Those Thai words have nothing to indicate what vowel to use, but I have just tried saying ตก and it automatically comes out of the mouth as t/dok.

But thanks for your assistance BS, I am certainly a wiser man than I was 1 hour ago.

[Bluesofa]

Thanks Marble-eye, I really appreciate your comment.
I'm so pleased that you can follow the way I've explained it.

Sticking with อ this has just popped in to my head:

อุ่น (oon) warm 
This is another example of อ being used to fill the space silently. Below อ is the short vowel oo (as in to 'look' at something, or read a 'book')

Above อ is 'mai ek' a tone sign which when used with certain groups of consonants (there are three groups), make it a low tone (just going downwards, but not back up again)

[BigHewer]

Just want to say I’m enjoying this thread as a somewhat clueless observer. Very informative! 

[Bluesofa]

I’m sure we all find it funny that some countries in the orient appear to struggle with pronouncing R’s and L’s.
It’s been a source of fun for comedians for years. I remember a Japanese guy trying to say British Leyland and it came out as Blitis Reyrand.

If you watch the Thai news, the presenters all have no problem rolling their R’s (so to speak), they annunciate clearly.

Out in the sticks it’s rather different, with the R sound (ร) being replaced by the L sound (ล) a lot of the time.

So we can have ร้อน (rorn) hot, but often pronounce with an L - lorn

Then there’s ร้าน (ran) shop, often pronounced as ‘lan’
While we’re on shops: They’re sometimes referred to as ร้านขายของ (ran-kai-kong) meaning ‘shop that sells things’.
There's also ร้านอาหาร (ran-ah-han) restaurant – meaning a 'food shop'

Just to throw a spanner in the works regarding R & L: so ร้าน (ran or lan with an R) is shop , while ล้าน (lan with an L) is a million.
Both these words have a high tone, so saying them both as a word with no context, a Thai couldn’t be sure if you were speaking lazy Thai (re: R&Ls) whether you meant a shop or a million.

Some Thai tongue-twisters that are dead easy for ferangs, because we have no problem with R’s & L’s:

ระนองระยองยะลา (ranong, rayong, yala) - it's those three place names.
Get a Thai to say them, and say them quickly five or six times. I guarantee they will trip up, whereas us ferangs can keep saying it until the cows come home.

Finally, there's  http://engrish.com  which has been going for over twenty years.