Thai Language thread

[Bluesofa]

13 minutes ago, HiuMak said:

Good advice. I am not good with languages and trying to learn word by word each day. Writing them down to remember and watching thai videos with subtitles to learn. I am trying to mix and match simple words to form a sentence sometimes but not sure if that make any sense.

Most times , my problem is with "listening". Thai native speaks really fast and the vowels can be very close for some words. Hence, I have trouble understanding mosts.

If you're earwigging (listening in) on someone else's conversation, then yeah it can be daunting to hear to locals speaking at what seems like the speed of light when you're learning.
However, if someone's speaking directly to you, can't you ask them to speak slowly?

Stick at it, eventually you'll build up a vocabulary and also get the hang of more about what them thar natives are saying!

[HappyExpat]

36 minutes ago, HiuMak said:

Most times , my problem is with "listening". Thai native speaks really fast and the vowels can be very close for some words. Hence, I have trouble understanding mosts.

Absolutely same here. I can speak well enough to get my message across, and when they start to reply, I ask them to "poot sha sha" which is my attempt to ask them to speak slowly.

[Marble-eye]

23 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

If you're earwigging (listening in) on someone else's conversation, then yeah it can be daunting to hear to locals speaking at what seems like the speed of light when you're learning.
However, if someone's speaking directly to you, can't you ask them to speak slowly?

Stick at it, eventually you'll build up a vocabulary and also get the hang of more about what them thar natives are saying!

I think 'trying' is the key word, most Thais will love it when you try and speak their language. I was in Big C and wanted to know the location of an item, so I walked up to one of their workers and his face dropped when he saw a farang going to ask him something in English. However I politely asked him in Thai and his face lit up like a Belisha Beacon, so satifying. 

[JamesE]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

However I politely asked him in Thai and his face lit up like a Belisha Beacon, so satifying. 

Oh, great. All they do when I do this is laugh!

But then they are usually very patient with me.

[JamesE]

What I need now more than anything is a trick to help reading sentences. Short of going through and marking out words I'm basically lost. Give me one word. No problem. But three or more and I'd have as much luck reading as if it were upside down.

[Bluesofa]

20 minutes ago, JamesE said:

What I need now more than anything is a trick to help reading sentences. Short of going through and marking out words I'm basically lost. Give me one word. No problem. But three or more and I'd have as much luck reading as if it were upside down.

I know what you mean as well.
The fact there are no spaces between words sometimes makes it more difficult as a non-native speaker to pick out each word. Butinenglishitiseasy. Ha ha!

Quite often Thai word order is confusing. Even speaking it reasonably, I still have a non-Thai logic process which I find hindering sometimes.
That's not a jibe, but I can't always see things the same way that Thais can.

Having said that, for us ferangs we can see funny words made up from others:

ม้าลาย Zebra. I'm sure we're aware of the joke about a zebra is a horse wearing pyjamas. In Thai it's a 'striped horse'

เสือดาว Leopard. That's a 'starred tiger' (like stars in the sky)

โรงพยาบาล Hospital. A nursing shed (or hall)

โรงเรียน School. A learning shed

โรงหนัง Cinema. A movie shed

(All the above examples have the opposite word order to English)

OK, I know some people might say I'm being frivolous here, but I'm sure it can help with understanding Thai when you can see how some of the words come together.

[Bluesofa]

I was thinking about my use of the English word 'shed' above, as I always thought of โรง (rong) more as 'hall'. It was google translate that suggested 'shed'.

Just to be boring, I decided to look up โรง (rong) in my comprehensive Thai-English dictionary. The exhaustive list it has is: hall, shed, house, building, outhouse, pavilion, factory, mill, station, structure, hut, habitation.

I don't quite know why 'station' is included in there, as I'd always use สถานี (satarnee) as a more common word.

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

[JamesE]

9 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

โรง

Forget โรง, you want endless meanings just look at น้ำ...

[Bluesofa]

8 hours ago, JamesE said:

Forget โรง, you want endless meanings just look at น้ำ...

 

When I listed โรง (hall/shed) I only l used the definition for that word itself, not the additional endings - there two complete pages worth of those.

I take your point about น้ำ (nam) The definition of the word on its own is 'water, liquid, fuel'
The additions for other words starting with น้ำ goes to eight pages, which I think must be around two hundred or so words.

 

[Bluesofa]

 

I often play verbally with my wife’s four-year-old niece. Things like a zebra is a horse wearing pyjamas, and so on.

Now as socks are ถุงเท้า (tong toaw) which is made up of ถุง (bag) and เท้า (foot) and gloves are ถุงมือ (toong mer) made up of ถุง (bag) and มือ (hand)

As a joke I’ve always referred to a bra as ถุงนม (toong nom) as made up of ถุง (bag) นม (breasts)
Ever since I mentioned this to her niece, she’s always accepted that’s the word for bra.
Recently when my wife ask her niece to pass her a bra, she used the word เสื้อใน (inside shirt).
Her niece looked confused and when my wife picked it up to show her, the niece corrected my wife telling her she was wrong, and it was ถุงนม (toong nom) which my wife thought was hilarious.
Poor kid, I’m leading her astray.

 

[Bluesofa]

 

Recently I had to look up fork (for eating), as I didn’t know the spelling and so didn’t know the tone.

It is spelt ส้อม (som) with a falling tone (goes up, then down).
When I realised the tone, I thought for a couple of seconds am I right? The reason for my doubt - there is another word exactly the same, with the same tone: ซ่อม (som) to repair.

Now obviously if you see those two words written you can instantly recognise what they are. However, the two words spoken on their own prevent anyone who is listening realising which word is which.
 

That led my mind to ramble into the other example ผม (pom), a rising tone (goes down, then up).

That can mean the personal pronoun ‘I/me’, as well as ‘hair’.
Only this one has the same spelling and tone, so hearing it or seeing it written on its own prevents you knowing the use.

With both these examples they need to be in context for the listener to understand which word is which.

This does allow some humour. A man speaking uses ผม (pom) for ‘I/me’, a woman uses ฉัน (chan) for ‘I/me’ - also a rising tone.
My wife has long hair, and occasionally I might accidentally lay on it. She will deliberately say ฉัน (chan) – using the female personal pronoun, instead of ผม (pom).

 

[Bluesofa]

 

It’s interesting how Thai words are built up of various other words.

Just now I saw โรงเก็บเครื่องบิน (rong-geb-kruang-bin) for the first time, and I just knew that must be an aircraft hangar.

It’s made up from โรง (rong) – shed/hall/building,  เก็บ (geb) to store something,  เครื่อง(kruang) machine,  บิน (bin) fly.

Just the same as อ่างเก็บน้ำ (ang-geb-nam) – a sink/basin to store water - aka a reservoir.

 

[JamesE]

5 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

It’s interesting how Thai words are built up of various other words.

Just now I saw โรงเก็บเครื่องบิน (rong-geb-kruang-bin) for the first time, and I just knew that must be an aircraft hangar.

It’s made up from โรง (rong) – shed/hall/building,  เก็บ (geb) to store something,  เครื่อง(kruang) machine,  บิน (bin) fly.

Just the same as อ่างเก็บน้ำ (ang-geb-nam) – a sink/basin to store water - aka a reservoir.

Once I realized this, the whole "Thai is a monosyllabic language" made much more sense. What seems to happen is that the addition of syllables add context so meaning is built with syllables. The next layer of context is built in the relation to the other words in the sentence or the actual setting that the words are used. น้ำส้ม (nahmsom) can be orange juice or vinegar depending on where you are when you're asking for it.

[Bluesofa]

9 hours ago, JamesE said:

{snipped}
The next layer of context is built in the relation to the other words in the sentence or the actual setting that the words are used. น้ำส้ม (nahmsom) can be orange juice or vinegar depending on where you are when you're asking for it.

 

That was interesting about the orange juice/vinegar.
I’m not trying to pick holes in your post, but never having known the Thai for vinegar before, I looked it up on google translate and also my English-Thai dictionary. They both offered this: น้ำส้มสายชู (nam-som-sai-choo)

My Thai-English dictionary defined the last two words สายชู: “the mucilaginous substance that produces fermentation of palm sugar for vinegar”

Perhaps it’s just that being in the ‘vinegar shop’, they are too lazy to say the full word, and will realise you’re not after orange juice – I don’t know.

I searched the Big C website, that found น้ำส้มสายชูกลั่น (nam-som-sai-choo-glan) The last word กลั่น (glan) means ‘refined’.

Another word I’ve recently discovered is ทรายแมว (sai-meow) for cat-litter, the first word ทราย (sai) is ‘sand’, the second ‘cat’. That seems a very ferang style use of two words.

Even though ทร (t and r) together at the beginning are pronounced as ‘s’ (must be as ซ, as the word has no tone, just flat).
Once when I opened my mouth to ask my Thai teacher, “Why?” she said wearily, “Just accept it!”

 

[JamesE]

32 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

That was interesting about the orange juice/vinegar.
I’m not trying to pick holes in your post, but never having known the Thai for vinegar before, I looked it up on google translate and also my English-Thai dictionary. They both offered this: น้ำส้มสายชู (nam-som-sai-choo)

My Thai-English dictionary defined the last two words สายชู: “the mucilaginous substance that produces fermentation of palm sugar for vinegar”

Perhaps it’s just that being in the ‘vinegar shop’, they are too lazy to say the full word, and will realise you’re not after orange juice – I don’t know.

I searched the Big C website, that found น้ำส้มสายชูกลั่น (nam-som-sai-choo-glan) The last word กลั่น (glan) means ‘refined’.

Another word I’ve recently discovered is ทรายแมว (sai-meow) for cat-litter, the first word ทราย (sai) is ‘sand’, the second ‘cat’. That seems a very ferang style use of two words.

Even though ทร (t and r) together at the beginning are pronounced as ‘s’ (must be as ซ, as the word has no tone, just flat).
Once when I opened my mouth to ask my Thai teacher, “Why?” she said wearily, “Just accept it!”

My S.O. (my go-to for usage) will just ask for น้ำส้ม if we're at a restaurant, for dim-sum or if something's too sweet. I just learned the สายชู part today!

[Bluesofa]

 

Some more on words and how they are constructed.

รถ (rot) a car or a vehicle     ไฟ (fai) light, electric, fire     ด่วน (duwan) urgent, express, quick

รถไฟ (rot fai) becomes a train, and if we add urgent then it’s รถไฟด่วน (rot fai duwan) – an express train.

 

ครื่อง (kruang) a machine     บิน (bin) to fly     เครื่องบิน (kruang bin) a flying machine - aka an aeroplane.

This is a cracking bit now:  ท้อง (tong) stomach/belly     so we can have ท้องเครื่องบิน (tong kruang bin) aeroplane stomach.
Surely it’s obvious – ha ha!  It’s the aircraft cargo hold.

I’m really hoping some more people might start to participate in this topic.
 

 

[JamesE]

7 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

Some more on words and how they are constructed.

รถ (rot) a car or a vehicle     ไฟ (fai) light, electric, fire     ด่วน (duwan) urgent, express, quick

รถไฟ (rot fai) becomes a train, and if we add urgent then it’s รถไฟด่วน (rot fai duwan) – an express train.

ครื่อง (kruang) a machine     บิน (bin) to fly     เครื่องบิน (kruang bin) a flying machine - aka an aeroplane.

This is a cracking bit now:  ท้อง (tong) stomach/belly     so we can have ท้องเครื่องบิน (tong kruang bin) aeroplane stomach.
Surely it’s obvious – ha ha!  It’s the aircraft cargo hold.

I’m really hoping some more people might start to participate in this topic.
 

I was just getting ready to but you preempted me...

I ran into a weird one where the build up from other words broke down. I needed to transliterate a place: หมู่บ้านปัญญา (Moo Baan Panya, which loosely translates to Wisdom Village) but Google Maps was telling me it was "Punya" which, as you can see, it isn't. I was messing about with my translate and my dictionary trying to figure out why it's spelled with ญญ. Typically when you see this it does mean it's a compound word along the lines of your post and the ending consonant is obscure for that use maybe reflecting an old spelling. So I dug a little deeper and I was right. Kind of.

ปัญ by itself means problem (a short form of ปัญหา) and หา by itself means look for. But ญา by itself doesn't mean anything. However, ปัญญ by itself means intelligence. So when you conflate ปัญญ (intelligence) with ปัญหา (problem) you get ปัญญา (wisdom). And to wrap it all up, ปัญญา also translates as "wit".

(I would like to think that it was intentional due to the Thai love for puns, but I think they probably just had a dictionary and a pin and that's where it stuck.)

[Bluesofa]

9 hours ago, JamesE said:

I was just getting ready to but you preempted me...

I ran into a weird one where the build up from other words broke down. I needed to transliterate a place: หมู่บ้านปัญญา (Moo Baan Panya, which loosely translates to Wisdom Village) but Google Maps was telling me it was "Punya" which, as you can see, it isn't. I was messing about with my translate and my dictionary trying to figure out why it's spelled with ญญ. Typically when you see this it does mean it's a compound word along the lines of your post and the ending consonant is obscure for that use maybe reflecting an old spelling. So I dug a little deeper and I was right. Kind of.

ปัญ by itself means problem (a short form of ปัญหา) and หา by itself means look for. But ญา by itself doesn't mean anything. However, ปัญญ by itself means intelligence. So when you conflate ปัญญ (intelligence) with ปัญหา (problem) you get ปัญญา (wisdom). And to wrap it all up, ปัญญา also translates as "wit".

(I would like to think that it was intentional due to the Thai love for puns, but I think they probably just had a dictionary and a pin and that's where it stuck.)

 

This use of ปัญญา (banyar) for ‘intelligence’ has caused me some confusion too, basically due to meaning ‘wit’ as well.

I see you use a ‘p’ and I use a ‘b’ for the first letter - panya/banyar.
Obviously it’s just different perception. I don’t think there’s a wrong or right really (we’ll ignore the RTGS, which is as much use as a chocolate teapot).

 

My confusion is to do with a school worksheet, with Thai/English printed on it as a watermark, see the image:

It says ผลิตปัญญา

ผลิต (plid) manufacture/produce   ปัญญา (banyar) intelligence/wit

Unfortunately someone has translated it as: “Make a wit”  Hmm.

I couldn’t find ปัญญ listed on it’s own. However, I’ve found another word เฉลียวฉลาด (cha-liaow-ch-lad) intelligent. Just put ความ (kwam) in front to change it to become intelligence - ความเฉลียวฉลาด

ความ (kwam) is a good ‘modifier’ - if that’s the right word? To alter the use of the word. Sorry, I’m useless explaining it in English. Here are some examples:

จำ (jam) remember    ความจำ (kwam-jam) memory

ร้อน (rorn) hot    ความร้อน (kwam-rorn) heat

สุข (suk) happy    ความสุข (kwam-suk) happiness

จริง (ching) true    ความจริง (kwam-ching) truth

รู้ (roo) to know    ความรู้ (kwam-roo) knowledge
 

 

[JamesE]

10 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

ความ (kwam) is a good ‘modifier’ - if that’s the right word? To alter the use of the word.

By itself it means "sense" so when modifying another word it's like "being in possession of" or, when paired with มี, feeling.

10 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

Obviously it’s just different perception. I don’t think there’s a wrong or right really

It "really" should be "Bp" but the RTGS calls it "P"...

[Bluesofa]

8 hours ago, JamesE said:

By itself it means "sense" so when modifying another word it's like "being in possession of" or, when paired with มี, feeling.

It "really" should be "Bp" but the RTGS calls it "P"...

I did google ความ (kwam) and saw 'sense', but it went right over my head.
"being in possession of"  is a good explanation of it.

Yes, I've seen มี (mee) in the front of some of these words before.  The one that springs to mind is  มีความสุข (mee-kwam-suk) happiness (or in this case I suppose 'to feel happy')
 

B, P , Bp.  I reckon it's Bp for Blood Pressure, as it must cause so much stress for those who don't realise that we all make up the transliteration as we go along.
 

[lpc]

I'm a beginner and I'm currently learning Thai through online lessons with a teacher. I would also agree that conversational should be the starting point to learn the language as tones are very important and very particular.

[Bluesofa]

3 hours ago, lpc said:

I'm a beginner and I'm currently learning Thai through online lessons with a teacher. I would also agree that conversational should be the starting point to learn the language as tones are very important and very particular.

Yes, the tones are important to speaking Thai clearly.
Even now, I can't always hear the tones of some words clearly. I sometimes have to ask my wife the spelling of the word, then I can see what the tone is by reading the Thai word.

[JamesE]

11 hours ago, lpc said:

I'm a beginner and I'm currently learning Thai through online lessons with a teacher. I would also agree that conversational should be the starting point to learn the language as tones are very important and very particular.

Welcome to the group. @Bluesofa Is the guy to talk to ask for how things work in the real world. I'm a grammar-nazi so I like to learn the rules. The hardest thing for me was to get my ear trained to hearing in Thai. Since I spend most of my year in the US I don't have the constant exposure it takes to understand what I'm hearing. So I spend a lot of time in the garden with headphones on. The only suggestion I would put forth is that it's better to learn reading/writing alongside speaking. As Blue said, the spoken words are often very close in sound but are spelled completely differently (in most cases). Plus, you won't have to learn 20 different transposition systems. What class/teacher are you using? If you have any questions or want any suggestions for places to look at, ask away. It's also important to realize that everybody learns differently, so, if you feel like you're not making progress with one teacher/school, it might not be you. Good luck!

[lpc]

16 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

Yes, the tones are important to speaking Thai clearly.
Even now, I can't always hear the tones of some words clearly. I sometimes have to ask my wife the spelling of the word, then I can see what the tone is by reading the Thai word.

Now that I've heard of that, I'm sure I would experience that in the future frequently since I can't read Thai symbols yet. 

[lpc]

8 hours ago, JamesE said:

Welcome to the group. @Bluesofa Is the guy to talk to ask for how things work in the real world. I'm a grammar-nazi so I like to learn the rules. The hardest thing for me was to get my ear trained to hearing in Thai. Since I spend most of my year in the US I don't have the constant exposure it takes to understand what I'm hearing. So I spend a lot of time in the garden with headphones on. The only suggestion I would put forth is that it's better to learn reading/writing alongside speaking. As Blue said, the spoken words are often very close in sound but are spelled completely differently (in most cases). Plus, you won't have to learn 20 different transposition systems. What class/teacher are you using? If you have any questions or want any suggestions for places to look at, ask away. It's also important to realize that everybody learns differently, so, if you feel like you're not making progress with one teacher/school, it might not be you. Good luck!

Thank you for the warm welcome. I was also reading some posts here and most of you have discussed grammar which I have skipped a bit since I don't understand lol. Maybe it depends on the learning style too since I prefer to learn with a teacher with beginner conversations. Thank you, I'd take note of that.