Thai Language thread

[Bluesofa]

On 8/26/2021 at 12:21 AM, JamesE said:

Copy and paste! I keep a "dictionary" in Excel for just this reason. I know the word but couldn't spell it if you put a gun to my head.

Seeing as this the the defacto Thai language forum (not - ha ha!  James, we had an interesting discussion about Thai, Sanskrit and Bali quite a while back, so I thought I'd ask you about something on the Thai (computer) keyboard.
I can't believe I've never noticed this before though.

The English 'B' key. In Thai it's sara   ิ lower case. What is it if you use upper case? It's a small circle/dot.
For example, if I print phor phan then press upper case B, it puts this circle immediately below it: พฺฺฺ 
I just asked my wife who says it has a 'Sanskrit use' when monks need it. Does that sound correct?
Do you have any idea on that one?
 

[JamesE]

10 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

Seeing as this the the defacto Thai language forum (not - ha ha!  James, we had an interesting discussion about Thai, Sanskrit and Bali quite a while back, so I thought I'd ask you about something on the Thai (computer) keyboard.
I can't believe I've never noticed this before though.

The English 'B' key. In Thai it's sara   ิ lower case. What is it if you use upper case? It's a small circle/dot.
For example, if I print phor phan then press upper case B, it puts this circle immediately below it: พฺฺฺ 
I just asked my wife who says it has a 'Sanskrit use' when monks need it. Does that sound correct?
Do you have any idea on that one?
 

Hmmm... พฺ is what I get, too. I asked my S.O. and she looked at me like I was nuts. Wikipedia's "Thai Script" entry doesn't mention it at all. I think your wife is correct, it's one of those relics.

[JamesE]

@BluesofaTo your point about it being an "alphabet". It's not. It's an - getting technical here - abugida, which is kind of an alphabet but words are spelled with syllables made up of Consonants (up to two) and vowels (only ever one). Once I got my head wrapped around this a lot suddenly started to make sense - like the implied vowel rule, dealing with consonant clusters, etc - and how it's possible to "spell" a word. You don't spell by letters, you spell by syllables, you read by syllables, and you speak by syllables. It explains how Thais can rattle through a 30-meter long last name without breaking a sweat. I still haven't been able to implement it much (errr... at all) but there's hope.

The whole abugida  thing also helps understand the vowels. They are not letters or combinations of letters, they're combination of symbols. So, เอะ is not sara aa+(some consonant)+sara ah-which-makes-it-short. It's Mai na+(some consonant)+Wisanchani, that combination of symbols creates sara a. Even the little vertical strokes in อื อี or the tiny circle in อึ have their own names (in addition to อิ which is Phinthu i). Wild stuff.

[Bluesofa]

You're telling me it's wild stuff!

I had to look up abugida, being the ignoramus I am. One of the words wiki uses to describe it is 'pseudo-alphabet', so I feel very slightly better about that.

Well I'm pleased you've enlightened me about the use for the Phinthu and its name too. I see wiki mentions it:
"Because the Thai script is an abugida, a symbol (equivalent to virāma in devanagari) needs to be added to indicate that the implied vowel is not to be pronounced."
I'm guessing you don't know of any examples of a Thai word using it? Is it only foreign words in Thai script at a guess?

I only know about the use of Karan to silence consonants. It tends to be used for foreign words written in Thai script, in my experience anyway.
I've seen เกิร์ล - 'girl' as an example, but I don't know if that was down to an illiterate/creative sign-writer?

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida  
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_script#Phinthu_(virāma)    
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_script#Diacritics   
 

[JamesE]

9 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

You're telling me it's wild stuff!

I had to look up abugida, being the ignoramus I am. One of the words wiki uses to describe it is 'pseudo-alphabet', so I feel very slightly better about that.

Well I'm pleased you've enlightened me about the use for the Phinthu and its name too. I see wiki mentions it:
"Because the Thai script is an abugida, a symbol (equivalent to virāma in devanagari) needs to be added to indicate that the implied vowel is not to be pronounced."
I'm guessing you don't know of any examples of a Thai word using it? Is it only foreign words in Thai script at a guess?

I only know about the use of Karan to silence consonants. It tends to be used for foreign words written in Thai script, in my experience anyway.
I've seen เกิร์ล - 'girl' as an example, but I don't know if that was down to an illiterate/creative sign-writer?

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida  
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_script#Phinthu_(virāma)    
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_script#Diacritics   
 

I hate the RTGS. It's responsible for more confusion than anything else I've seen. Why they decided to use only one substitution per letter is beyond me. ก=k, I think, was specifically instituted to make people reading the signs sound like tourists...

That's interesting about the phinthu. I'll keep a lookout for it. But it does make sense in the context of Sanskrit which may have words that would require an implied vowel in Thai but contain a non-Thai consonant cluster. My favorite example is Starbucks which breaks more Thai rules than any other word (I think).  They could use that little dot in the transliteration and get rid of one problem right there!

Garan is used in a lot of Thai words: อาทิตย์, ตังค์, สัตว์ are pretty common. Yeah, you're right. It's usually used to silence a final consonant but I've seen a few words where it makes a final syllable silent. Something like ทุ์ but I can't remember where I saw that. I think the use in your girl example is poetic license. Thai doesn't have an "RL" consonant cluster, and doesn't like syllables that end in R or L, so they just made a choice!

 

[Bluesofa]

I agree about the RTGS, I can't see any ferang logic to it.
If everyone in officialdom followed it consistently it would be one thing, but they use it when it suits their needs, otherwise it's ignored.

A good example is Pattaya. I've seen it also spelt Phataya, Pataya, -  these were road signs.
Does the office producing the Engrish signs variably-translate them depending on who did it, day of the week, ignoring the RTGS sometimes, etc?
Phuket is a really well-known translation. See the pic at the bottom where it's put to good use!

I don't imagine we'd ever see the phinthu in everyday Thai, especially at Thais seem to know nothing about it. You'd have be looking at something like the Pali canons perhaps? That's a pure guess though.

Your Starbucks example สตาร์บัคส์ also seems a good way of translating to make it 'easy' for Thais to say. One thing is the first consonant cluster (if you could call it that in this example). It uses the non-Thai sound of 'st' as one constant cluster in English, so in Thai it will be pronounced s-t.
It seems there can't be any natural Thai words using s-something at the start, sounded as a single syllable. I have to get my wife's four-year-old niece to say Snow White without s-now and also to sound the final 't' in White as well.

As soon as I read your example of Thai words with Garan, I just wanted to kick myself, course there are a lot. I wonder if some of these words might have a Sanskrit origin in order to use Garan?
Why does wiki spell it Karan? Is it another example of RTGS confusion I wonder?

RL consonant. Listening to a Thai who is not a good English speaker, it will be pronounced as rw as it's a more natural way for them to end that word.  เกิร์ล - will be pronounced as girw.
I think it must be to do with the mouth, as for W your mouth is closed, but with L your tongue needs to go to the roof of your mouth, which I don't see a natural Thai end-sound.
Another example of non-Thai consonant clusters is 'sh'. To be be basic for a minute, if you listen to a Thai saying 'shit' they will tend to say 'chit' using ช

Yes, the R and L endings are sounded as N.  พร is Pon, ชลบุรี is Chonburi.
I remember Chonburi particularly because decades ago I went to the post office in the UK trying to find a Chonburi postcode. The staff had a book of postcodes produced by the Thai post office, but there was only Cholburi which confused me.
Years later, I can now understand that it must have been a Thai translating the word into English, obliviously using the spelling rather than the pronunciation.

[JamesE]

12 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

Why does wiki spell it Karan? Is it another example of RTGS confusion I wonder?

Yeah, the RTGS doesn't discriminate between starting and ending sounds. So, Koh, Karan, Kata, etc. etc. etc.

The consonant cluster(f#@k) took me years to wrap my head around. Everybody I asked said "just the way it is". Finally I got a teacher who laid out the rules. If it's not one of the 15 consonant clusters, then the implied vowel rule kicks in. Jeez!

Then there's the whole translation/transliteration/transposition dilemma. Do I write what it sounds like or do I just exchange letters? Or just write what it means. I really think they're just trying to mess with our heads.

[HiuMak]

If you intend to live in Thailand, will you be able to get by just by learning to speak and listen in the initial years? I am self learning with podcasts and videos, which is already difficult.

Writing and reading thai seems something next level to me that may require attending thai language courses or class.

 

[Bluesofa]

8 hours ago, JamesE said:

Yeah, the RTGS doesn't discriminate between starting and ending sounds. So, Koh, Karan, Kata, etc. etc. etc.

The consonant cluster(f#@k) took me years to wrap my head around. Everybody I asked said "just the way it is". Finally I got a teacher who laid out the rules. If it's not one of the 15 consonant clusters, then the implied vowel rule kicks in. Jeez!

Then there's the whole translation/transliteration/transposition dilemma. Do I write what it sounds like or do I just exchange letters? Or just write what it means. I really think they're just trying to mess with our heads.

Can you explain 'consonant cluster'. Do you mean double consonants as the first two letters, or perhaps the start and end consonants to determine the tone? I'm assuming it's the latter?

The transliteration thing to my mind (ignoring the RTGS) is very subjective owing to two alphabets/abugida  not aligning directly.
Plus different European languages sound the same consonants and vowels differently to others.

'Mess with our heads' is a good way to describe it.
When I used to ask my first Thai teacher questions all the time, she got fed up with me (ha ha!) and after saying, "Just listen and accept it," I always replied, "But I'm not Thai. At school we were all told by the teacher to "Keep asking it you don't understand."
In the end, when I asked awkward questions, my Thai teacher would just say, "We do that just to make it difficult for ferangs to learn Thai."

I suppose it's one of those things as a native speaker you know instinctively what's correct, but can't always easily explain why.
I know when I'm proofreading text from non-native English speakers I have the same situation.

 

[Bluesofa]

53 minutes ago, HiuMak said:

If you intend to live in Thailand, will you be able to get by just by learning to speak and listen in the initial years? I am self learning with podcasts and videos, which is already difficult.

Writing and reading thai seems something next level to me that may require attending thai language courses or class.

Hi, thanks for posting here.

This is just my opinion. I'd suggest learning conversational Thai first, then if you're sure you want to learn more, then look to going down the reading and writing path.
I know there are people who will say that you need to start by learning to read at the very beginning, but that always assumes you know how committed you are to learning the language when you start, and you don't always know.

I'm a Brit, and we're generally hopeless learning a second language. Usually speaking slowly and loudly in English will help the foreigners understand - ha ha!

Personally if you learn to read and write, then initially attending a class is a must. If you can learn one-to-one, so much the better.
 

[JamesE]

56 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

Can you explain 'consonant cluster'. Do you mean double consonants as the first two letters, or perhaps the start and end consonants to determine the tone? I'm assuming it's the latter?

A consonant cluster is a group of multiple consonants that are pronounced as a single unit but retain their individual sounds. So, ST, RL, BL, RT, RTS, STR, etc, etc, etc., are consonant clusters. Consonant groups are groups of consonants (DUH!) which together don't retain their individual identities. So, GH, GHT, TH, SH, NG, etc. are consonant groups (formally known as diagraphs) that together make a new sound.

In Thai there are only 15 consonant clusters: กร กล กว ขร ขล ขว คร คล คว ตร ปร ปล ผล พร พล and no diagraphs. If you see two consonants next to each other then the implied vowel rule kicks in.

43 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

Hi, thanks for posting here.

This is just my opinion. I'd suggest learning conversational Thai first, then if you're sure you want to learn more, then look to going down the reading and writing path.
I know there are people who will say that you need to start by learning to read at the very beginning, but that always assumes you know how committed you are to learning the language when you start, and you don't always know.

I'm a Brit, and we're generally hopeless learning a second language. Usually speaking slowly and loudly in English will help the foreigners understand - ha ha!

Personally if you learn to read and write, then initially attending a class is a must. If you can learn one-to-one, so much the better.
 

Yes, you need to get the basics but I didn't really start to learn until I started to read (a bit, I still can't write worth s#!t). That allows you to picture words in your head. I've tried everything from Skype lessons to online self-paced classes to one-on-one instruction and all of it is valuable. The best thing you can do is find a teacher that is able to not follow their schools program and who will answer your questions. Like @Bluesofasaid, many teachers just want you to accept what they're telling you so they can stay on track.

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, JamesE said:

A consonant cluster is a group of multiple consonants that are pronounced as a single unit but retain their individual sounds. So, ST, RL, BL, RT, RTS, STR, etc, etc, etc., are consonant clusters. Consonant groups are groups of consonants (DUH!) which together don't retain their individual identities. So, GH, GHT, TH, SH, NG, etc. are consonant groups (formally known as diagraphs) that together make a new sound.

In Thai there are only 15 consonant clusters: กร กล กว ขร ขล ขว คร คล คว ตร ปร ปล ผล พร พล and no diagraphs. If you see two consonants next to each other then the implied vowel rule kicks in.

It was when I saw 'the implied vowel rule' that I think you must  mean it's two consonants to make one word?
So as you have listed above (and I used as an example before):  พร - pon?

You don't mean something like สร้าง as that's also two consonants together? I initially I wasn't sure if that was a consonant cluster. I remember the tone rule for that is any tone is written over the second consonant, but is 'applied' to the first consonant and follows the tone class rule for the first consonant. สร้าง therefore has a falling tone.

I'm sorry to be so thick, but I never  heard that phrase before. Neither of my Thai teachers used it. It must be non-Thai description?

[JamesE]

10 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

It was when I saw 'the implied vowel rule' that I think you must  mean it's two consonants to make one word?
So as you have listed above (and I used as an example before):  พร - pon?

You don't mean something like สร้าง as that's also two consonants together? I initially I wasn't sure if that was a consonant cluster. I remember the tone rule for that is any tone is written over the second consonant, but is 'applied' to the first consonant and follows the tone class rule for the first consonant. สร้าง therefore has a falling tone.

I'm sorry to be so thick, but I never  heard that phrase before. Neither of my Thai teachers used it. It must be non-Thai description?

It took me forever - forever - to get somebody to explain it to me and it's absolutely critical to understanding.

The short version is there are the 15 allowed Thai consonant clusters (CC). If there are two consonants together that are not on of the CCs then the magic happens. All Thai syllables are of the form Starting Consonant (C1) + Vowel(V)+ Optional Ending Consonant(C2). So, C1V(C2). C1 can be a CC so in พรุ่ง นี้ (tomorrow) พร - an allowed CC that sounds like "PR" - is C1, อุ่ is V and a tone mark, and ง is C2. พรุ่ง = "prung" (the tone rules make the " ' " needed to give it a falling tone).

The magic happens when you have a word like ทนน - road - neither ทน nor นน are one of the CCs so the implied vowel rule kicks in. In a nutshell, the implied vowel rule says: If the syllable is a consonant pair then you insert an โอะ but if the syllable is a single consonant then you insert an อะ. So ทนน is really pronounced ทะโนะน.

Your example: สร้าง I haven't got a clue. It might be an exception, a relic, or their might be a different rule for สร like ignore the ร. There are lots of like that where it appears to be a cluster but the ร is silent: ศรีราชา, ศรีนครินทร์, etc. I'll ask around.

[Bluesofa]

12 hours ago, JamesE said:

It took me forever - forever - to get somebody to explain it to me and it's absolutely critical to understanding.

The short version is there are the 15 allowed Thai consonant clusters (CC). If there are two consonants together that are not on of the CCs then the magic happens. All Thai syllables are of the form Starting Consonant (C1) + Vowel(V)+ Optional Ending Consonant(C2). So, C1V(C2). C1 can be a CC so in พรุ่ง นี้ (tomorrow) พร - an allowed CC that sounds like "PR" - is C1, อุ่ is V and a tone mark, and ง is C2. พรุ่ง = "prung" (the tone rules make the " ' " needed to give it a falling tone).

The magic happens when you have a word like ทนน - road - neither ทน nor นน are one of the CCs so the implied vowel rule kicks in. In a nutshell, the implied vowel rule says: If the syllable is a consonant pair then you insert an โอะ but if the syllable is a single consonant then you insert an อะ. So ทนน is really pronounced ทะโนะน.

Your example: สร้าง I haven't got a clue. It might be an exception, a relic, or their might be a different rule for สร like ignore the ร. There are lots of like that where it appears to be a cluster but the ร is silent: ศรีราชา, ศรีนครินทร์, etc. I'll ask around.

I'm beginning to wonder if I 'just accept' more things than I realise now, than I used to?

In พรุ่งนี้ I just remember the word and it seems straightforward that it doesn't look like a CC at the start, perhaps looking at the whole word makes it better?
Even the two initial consonant rule (tone marker on second one applying to first) is easier in this particular case as they're both low-class consonants.

The rule for ทนน. I don't think I've ever read that one before. Yet again, I must just accept that's the way it is.  It's low, followed by rising.

Oh dear, have I just rolled over and died now, regarding my lack of  'why, why, why?', and 'how does it work, what's the rule?'

OK, truth time! If I'm struggling I refer to Gordon H. Allison's Jumbo English-Thai Dictionary, I have the Fifth Edition dated 1997. He lists the tone of every word on there. I just looked up the tone for ทนน.
I've also got in my wallet a plastic laminated list of the twenty words that use ใ instead of ไ. Kids have memorise those twenty words at school. On the other side is a list of low, middle, high class consonants listed by each group.

There are some things I remember. Until I die I'll never forget my first Thai teacher drilling into me, "Low plus long plus short," as a tone rule.
For example ทอด for fried has a falling tone. ท is low class อ is a long vowel ด is a short consonant ending, giving the word a falling tone. ลูก child is another one.

I've just sent you a pm.

[Marble-eye]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:44 AM, Bluesofa said:

Hi, thanks for posting here.

This is just my opinion. I'd suggest learning conversational Thai first, then if you're sure you want to learn more, then look to going down the reading and writing path.
I know there are people who will say that you need to start by learning to read at the very beginning, but that always assumes you know how committed you are to learning the language when you start, and you don't always know.

I'm a Brit, and we're generally hopeless learning a second language. Usually speaking slowly and loudly in English will help the foreigners understand - ha ha!

Personally if you learn to read and write, then initially attending a class is a must. If you can learn one-to-one, so much the better.
 

Very interesting thread BS. I found that having poor hearing I couldn't always make out what someone said to me in Thai, so decided to learn the Thai alphabet, it is so much easier when see it written down in Thai although I do have my limitations when it gets complicated, i.e a vowel before, after and above often accompanied by a tone marker. My Thai learning is still at its infancy at the moment but it is so satisfying my wife going into a shop and I will try to read the billboards outside often it being an English word written in Thai, examples being "notebook" "printer" "promotion" etc.

"I'm a Brit, and we're generally hopeless learning a second language. Usually speaking slowly and loudly in English will help the foreigners understand - ha ha!"

Strangely enough the best Thai speakers I have come across in the main have all been Brits.

Anyway as interesting as this thread is I feel I am a little out of my depth, but you're never too old to learn.

[Bluesofa]

55 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Very interesting thread BS. I found that having poor hearing I couldn't always make out what someone said to me in Thai, so decided to learn the Thai alphabet, it is so much easier when see it written down in Thai although I do have my limitations when it gets complicated, i.e a vowel before, after and above often accompanied by a tone marker. My Thai learning is still at its infancy at the moment but it is so satisfying my wife going into a shop and I will try to read the billboards outside often it being an English word written in Thai, examples being "notebook" "printer" "promotion" etc.

"I'm a Brit, and we're generally hopeless learning a second language. Usually speaking slowly and loudly in English will help the foreigners understand - ha ha!"

Strangely enough the best Thai speakers I have come across in the main have all been Brits.

Anyway as interesting as this thread is I feel I am a little out of my depth, but you're never too old to learn.

Thanks for your reply. 

Please don't worry about feeling out of your depth. I also don't have perfect hearing, having had the problem since I was a kid. It does make for some funny situations if you mishear a word - and that's in English or Thai.

I have no idea how long JamesE has been learning Thai. I started in earnest almost twenty years ago, but always doing a month or so at a time, then having a break, as I was also running bar.

I felt that was better for me personally, as I when I had a break I had time to revise what I'd learnt to try and get it to sink in, what with me being hard-of-learning.

Even though you say your Thai learning is in it's infancy, I also remember that realisation when you could read signs and places names in Thai script. It was a great moment!

The point is from what you've already said, you understand the positioning of the vowels and the tone signs, so you're getting the hang of it already.
Keep at it, and if you want to ask something, we'll do our best to answer, not that I'm an expert. I just keep sticking at it, trying to understand Thai better.

[JamesE]

8 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

Thanks for your reply. 

Please don't worry about feeling out of your depth. I also don't have perfect hearing, having had the problem since I was a kid. It does make for some funny situations if you mishear a word - and that's in English or Thai.

I have no idea how long JamesE has been learning Thai. I started in earnest almost twenty years ago, but always doing a month or so at a time, then having a break, as I was also running bar.

I felt that was better for me personally, as I when I had a break I had time to revise what I'd learnt to try and get it to sink in, what with me being hard-of-learning.

Even though you say your Thai learning is in it's infancy, I also remember that realisation when you could read signs and places names in Thai script. It was a great moment!

The point is from what you've already said, you understand the positioning of the vowels and the tone signs, so you're getting the hang of it already.
Keep at it, and if you want to ask something, we'll do our best to answer, not that I'm an expert. I just keep sticking at it, trying to understand Thai better.

Ten years. And I'm still a beginner! @Marble-eyeThe transliteration of English words in Thai is exactly how I got started reading. The hearing thing is an issue for me too. Thai's are just so quiet when they speak! @Bluesofa's On-again, off-again method is best. Some formal learning followed by a period of digestion is very helpful. (Unfortunately, for me, it just gives me time to think up new questions to bother my teachers with...)

[JamesE]

10 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

There are some things I remember. Until I die I'll never forget my first Thai teacher drilling into me, "Low plus long plus short," as a tone rule.
For example ทอด for fried has a falling tone. ท is low class อ is a long vowel ด is a short consonant ending, giving the word a falling tone. ลูก child is another one.

If you want to see the perfect intersection of tone rules, the implied vowel rule, and the abugida consider: สวน (garden/park)... I was staring at a sign at the north side of Lumphini Park when I figured out. My head exploded.

[Bluesofa]

26 minutes ago, JamesE said:

If you want to see the perfect intersection of tone rules, the implied vowel rule, and the abugida consider: สวน (garden/park)... I was staring at a sign at the north side of Lumphini Park when I figured out. My head exploded.

When we come across words that seem to follow their own rules, we ask more questions than Thais would tend to.

Look at this: สวน  [ Noun, of Pali/Sanskrit origin ] 
That just makes you want to ask: Is this why the word is not so straightforward?

source: https://www.thai2english.com/dictionary/1404586.html    

[JamesE]

2 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

When we come across words that seem to follow their own rules, we ask more questions than Thais would tend to.

Look at this: สวน  [ Noun, of Pali/Sanskrit origin ] 
That just makes you want to ask: Is this why the word is not so straightforward?

source: https://www.thai2english.com/dictionary/1404586.html    

The word is perfectly straightforward... สวน Ends in a vowel-less น  so the implied vowel rule kicks in and สวน becomes สวโนะ which leaves that vowel-less ส at the beginning so, again, the implied vowel rule kicks in and a sara-ah is stuck in so now we have สะวโนะ. BUT sara-ah + wa-wen = sara-uua so now we get สัวโนะ  and it then turns out that we never needed the sara-oh to begin with because the sara-uua was already there so the word is pronounced สัวน. Mind. Blown.

I have found exactly one word that doesn't follow any rules that I can find (not that I know many words) and that is พระโขนง the sub-district/river/BTS stop in Bangkok. พระ is straightforward. But โขนง? Why isn't that pronounced "khoohnohng". It's got to be some weird relic word, but I haven't been able to find out anything about it.

[Bluesofa]

9 hours ago, JamesE said:

The word is perfectly straightforward... สวน Ends in a vowel-less น  so the implied vowel rule kicks in and สวน becomes สวโนะ which leaves that vowel-less ส at the beginning so, again, the implied vowel rule kicks in and a sara-ah is stuck in so now we have สะวโนะ. BUT sara-ah + wa-wen = sara-uua so now we get สัวโนะ  and it then turns out that we never needed the sara-oh to begin with because the sara-uua was already there so the word is pronounced สัวน. Mind. Blown.

I have found exactly one word that doesn't follow any rules that I can find (not that I know many words) and that is พระโขนง the sub-district/river/BTS stop in Bangkok. พระ is straightforward. But โขนง? Why isn't that pronounced "khoohnohng". It's got to be some weird relic word, but I haven't been able to find out anything about it.

regarding สวน.
You've confused me now regarding the โนะ ending?
It's just soo-wan, I can't see how the ending is complicated - have I missed something?

Regarding ส as the first consonant of the syllable, isn't the rule for that: it makes the word a rising tone, same as ห, except in this case it's sounded, unlike ห (with exceptions of course!)

ศาสนา follows that rule too.
My mate Gordon Allison reckons it's pronounced: "L)SAT-L)SA!-R)NA"
[per syllable: L)=low, !=short syllable, R)=rising tone.] I think the SAT has the ending 'swallowed' as it's been described to me before, perhaps that why he has the 'T' in there, not sure.
On it's own, ศา would be a rising tone, but as part of this longer word, it has a short ending  - hence it goes down but doesn't get back up again (to coin a phrase).

Just to make you feel better:
As we'd say in the very straightforward English language, to placate someone: "They're, their, there."

edit: I just noticed your bit 'the word is pronounced สัวน', as if you're saying it's a falling tone? It's a rising tone, not a falling tone, as I explained above.

[Bluesofa]

There are some words that I read, I only know how to spell, read, or pronounce them is from memory, but the logic in pronouncing them has always eluded me. Two words in particular:

พัทยา Pattaya surely it should come out as Patya?

พัฒนา develop (a project for example) Patana, but should be patna?

I’ve just discovered, not a rule that controls this, but the fact that there are ‘some words’ like this.
How you recognise them still baffles me. Is it just memory or some other trick? Any idea?

"Consonant Reduplication
In some Thai words, a single written consonant may serve as the final consonant of a closed syllable and then be pronounced again as the initial consonant of the following syllable. For example, in the word วิทยาลัย , which is pronounced witH-thaH-yaaM-laiM, the final consonant of the first syllable, ท, is reduplicated as the initial consonant of the second syllable."

source: http://www.thai-language.com/ref/consonant-reduplication        

There's an enormous list - as an exercise - to work out which words are like this!

 

[JamesE]

11 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

edit: I just noticed your bit 'the word is pronounced สัวน', as if you're saying it's a falling tone? It's a rising tone, not a falling tone, as I explained above.

Nope, rising tone: High class initial consonant and a live ending consonant.

4 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

พัทยา Pattaya surely it should come out as Patya?

This is what I thought, too. But I think it's the same issue as สัวน. The sara-eeya is built from the implied vowel rule. There are consonants in Thai that seem to span syllables and serve double duty. I don't know how to tell when that happens or why. But as you note, there are a lot of words out there that you just have to learn by rote.

[JamesE]

11 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

regarding สวน.
You've confused me now regarding the โนะ ending?
It's just soo-wan, I can't see how the ending is complicated - have I missed something?

This was just an intermediate step. The first pass with the implied vowel rule would say วน is a syllable and so sara-oh is the implied vowel. But that leaves ส to get a sara-ah under the same rule. BUT sara-ah+ว is sara uu-ah so the sara-oh gets scrapped.

[HiuMak]

 

On 9/1/2021 at 9:44 AM, Bluesofa said:

Hi, thanks for posting here.

This is just my opinion. I'd suggest learning conversational Thai first, then if you're sure you want to learn more, then look to going down the reading and writing path.
I know there are people who will say that you need to start by learning to read at the very beginning, but that always assumes you know how committed you are to learning the language when you start, and you don't always know.

I'm a Brit, and we're generally hopeless learning a second language. Usually speaking slowly and loudly in English will help the foreigners understand - ha ha!

Personally if you learn to read and write, then initially attending a class is a must. If you can learn one-to-one, so much the better.
 

Good advice. I am not good with languages and trying to learn word by word each day. Writing them down to remember and watching thai videos with subtitles to learn. I am trying to mix and match simple words to form a sentence sometimes but not sure if that make any sense.

Most times , my problem is with "listening". Thai native speaks really fast and the vowels can be very close for some words. Hence, I have trouble understanding mosts.

Edited September 4, 2021 by HiuMak