Thai Language thread

[DwizzleyMatthews]

2 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

What do all (well, both) the regular commenters think about my ongoing waffle regarding how words are 'pieced together'? Getting bored? Do you to know about something else?

Getting bored? …. far from it BS

I’m a long way behind you so don’t have anything meaningful to add unfortunately but am avidly following this topic.

Keep up the excellent work .

[Marble-eye]

2 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

How to refer to grandparents. This is dependent on which of your parents they belong to:

(which when used on it’s own means ‘you’), another reason is to avoid ambiguity, as there could be confusion if you were to say:

This could mean either your eyes or your maternal grandfather has a problem, as the two different words have the same spelling and same tone.

If anyone was eagled-eyed, they would have noticed I spelt the polite prefix as ฅุณ and not คุณ
as they are both the same word, but the first spelling was erroneously dropped due the usual ‘misunderstanding’, this one was back in the 1920s. See the lower part of this post:
https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/4428-thai-language-thread/?do=findComment&comment=140256

What do all (well, both) the regular commenters think about my ongoing waffle regarding how words are 'pieced together'? Getting bored? Do you to know about something else?

It's certainly not waffle by any stretch of the imagination, it has actually inspired me to do some more learning. But I have to admit after many years firing my personal weapon in the military, and even more years being a heavy duty plant fitter it has left my hearing at less than 100%, much less. So when I try to learn a Thai word by using only the tone signs I sound very much like Frank Ifield yodelling in a strange language.

But yes BS thanks for all your hard work you are putting into this thread, it is very much appreciated.

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Faraday said:

It's yet another good example of how some Thai words  actually describe exactly what it does.

Thank you for your service....

Yes, it does exactly what it says on the tin.

[Bluesofa]

Thanks for the vote of confidence chaps. Looks like there could be some more (non) waffle coming your way soon.

[Bluesofa]

Remember the post I made about vehicles, and the word for tyre: ยาง (yang)?
There are two words with the same tone and are very nearly the same:
Don’t forget '!' makes #2 very short.

Although my very comprehensive Thai dictionary has about twenty different uses for #2, the one which is used most often is regarding asking a question whether something has happened or not:

(The question mark is one of the very few punctuations used in Thai - it's on the English 'm' key)

Q:  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%82%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%AB%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B7%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%87%0A%0A&op=translate

A:  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%87%0A%0A&op=translate

Compare ‘A’ above - ‘not yet’, to ‘tyre’/’rubber’: 
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%87%0A%0A%0A%0A&op=translate  

 

 

[Bluesofa]

There are some fragrant Thai vegetables:

 

How old, how much?

There are two different words for ‘old’, for either a person/animal, or for objects.

Two examples:

[Bluesofa]

 

I’ve just learnt two words from my wife’s five-year-old niece, who was practising writing these two signs just now:

 

 

 

[Bluesofa]

A note about my post above, explaining why I wrote:   [mye - 'my' but longer]
I realise this will really be for those starting to recognise Thai script.

The letter 'i' in Thai really consists of two vowels, plus another 'i' sound:

#1. ไ is the most commonly used.
#2. Then there is ใ. There are twenty words that are spelt using this vowel.
Kids at school are taught these twenty words and have to remember them.
(I have a crib-sheet in my wallet with the words listed)

#1 and #2 are both short vowels  i.e. they're short syllables:
ไฟ (fy) electricity:  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ไฟ &op=translate 
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ไฟดับ&op=translate  *see below
 
ไน (ny) in:  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ใน &op=translate 
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ในบ้าน &op=translate  *see below   

The other 'i' sound is not a vowel, but does make a long 'i' sound: -าย 
Whereas #1 and #2 are written immediately before the consonant they are linked to, this 'non-vowel' is written after the consonant: 
หาย (hye) to lose, or disappear:  https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=หาย &op=translate 
https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=หายตัว &op=translate  *see below

Re: *see below. Because of a quirk. Google translate tends to 'draw out' the last word when listening to the voice, hence I've added a second example when the word is not at the end, I hope this helps.

[Viggen8408]

Thanks for this topic! As a Thai language 'virgin', any education is good :)

[Viggen8408]

On 8/15/2022 at 6:39 PM, Marble-eye said:

It's certainly not waffle by any stretch of the imagination, it has actually inspired me to do some more learning. But I have to admit after many years firing my personal weapon in the military, and even more years being a heavy duty plant fitter it has left my hearing at less than 100%, much less. So when I try to learn a Thai word by using only the tone signs I sound very much like Frank Ifield yodelling in a strange language.

But yes BS thanks for all your hard work you are putting into this thread, it is very much appreciated.

I know what you mean! Same problem here

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Viggen8408 said:

Thanks for this topic! As a Thai language 'virgin', any education is good :)

Hello young man.
If there is anything you would like to know about the Thai language, please just ask - whatever the question is.
I'll do my best to answer you.

[Marble-eye]

Two more words that I struggle to differentiate are แก้ว glass and เก้า nine.

So the แ at the beginning of makes a sounds like 'hair' and coupled with ก would give us ghair so it is alien to us to put a ว 'w' after ghair, and does the vowel เ 'eh' followed by the vowel า 'aa' give us the sound 'ow'. 

If unintelligible please ignore BS.

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

Two more words that I struggle to differentiate are แก้ว glass and เก้า nine.

So the แ at the beginning of makes a sounds like 'hair' and coupled with ก would give us ghair so it is alien to us to put a ว 'w' after ghair, and does the vowel เ 'eh' followed by the vowel า 'aa' give us the sound 'ow'. 

If unintelligible please ignore BS.

OK, it's unintelligible, I'll ignore it. ha ha!

"แก้ว glass"  (a 'falling' tone)
From the way you've written it, you're thinking ferang style regarding the 'hair'.
Sure แ is like hair, but only 'ai' part as in hair, there's no 'r' sound at the end in Thai.
I always thing of แ as in 'air(con)', but without pushing/pronouncing the 'r', just the same.

i suppose you could try saying 'air', and keep your mouth open to avoid the 'r' forming at the end?

Therefore the ว ('w') at the end does fit, but only as long as you keep that troublesome 'r' sound out of it.

I can't think of a word in Engrish with that sound. There's 'Ayr' in Scotland, but again you need to swallow that 'r' at the end, and replace it with 'w'

I know this is obscure, but someone like Jonathan Ross who can't pronounce his 'r's very well might tell you to 'go to hell' and it will sound more like 'haiw'. It's honestly the only way I can think of at the moment to explain it, ferang style.

"เก้า nine" (a 'falling' tone)
You're spot with this M-E.
Yes, the two vowel combination of เ-า produce that ow sound [ow as in ouch]. So put ก in the middle there and it becomes gow [rhymes with 'cow'] honestly, no bull!

Or is my long-winded reply unintelligible too?

[Bluesofa]

I came across some details about the history of the Thai language, as well as some info about dialects.

The really interesting part is about the origins of Thai.

Not only that, but on pages 55 & 56 are some youtube links - comparing the local language in Zhuang, China with Thai. Also Black Tai & White Thai in Vietnam.
Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region (GZAR), is in South China, bordering Vietnam.

This is one of the longer videos - fifteen minutes:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pkQG8vLDCM  It's in Mandarin, with English subtitles.

 

You can find the pdf here:   http://registrar.ku.ac.th/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/6-thai-language.pdf 

Title: Dynamics of the Thai Language (from Kasetsart University)

(don't worry that it's 144 pages long - the font is enormous, I think it should be less than half that with a normal size font) 

[Marble-eye]

Another puzzler I've come across is the word Pattaya, it seems to be pronounced Pat te yaa but in Thai it is written พัทยา which at first glance looks like Patya, where does the middle bit (te) come into it.

 

 

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

Another puzzler I've come across is the word Pattaya, it seems to be pronounced Pat te yaa but in Thai it is written พัทยา which at first glance looks like Patya, where does the middle bit (te) come into it.

Snap, M-E - I had exactly the same problem with this word years ago!

In the end I had to accept that พัทยา isn't pronounced as a complete first syllable 'pat' - 'cos that's using ferang thinking.

As we know by listening to Thais saying it, that it's พั -ท - ยา  Three syllables appear by separating the 'pat' into 'pa-t(e)'

I honestly can't quote a grammar rule about it, there might be one, I don't know. Sometimes we just have to go with it, and accept that's how it is.

Yet พัดลม (pat-lom) - fan, doesn't have the first syllable separated out.
There's another very similar word I can recall:  พัฒนา  The seldom used consonant ฒ is Thor phoo thao - another 'T' sound.

This word follows the same 'silly rule' as Pattaya, so is pronounced as พั-ฒ-นา - pa-ta-na. The word means to 'develop' - as in build, or evolve.

All I can say is we'll get back at those Thais:  through threw, right write, draft draught.

[Marble-eye]

Just mentioning this in passing BS but just checked out Sattahip and it follows a similar pattern to the Thai spelling of Pattaya.

It is is spelled สัตหีบ Sat heep, even when spelt in English it does not sound the 'ah' in the middle again, S̄ạth̄īb (Google Translate).

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

Just mentioning this in passing BS but just checked out Sattahip and it follows a similar pattern to the Thai spelling of Pattaya.

It is is spelled สัตหีบ Sat heep, even when spelt in English it does not sound the 'ah' in the middle again, S̄ạth̄īb (Google Translate).

We just can't win, can we? I used to live in Pattaya, so I know Sattaheeb - ha ha.

I think with names - whether it's place names or people's names, quite often it's better to ask if you're not sure.

I always thought Ayutthaya seems straightforward - อยุธยา, yet trying to read the province name on a car number plate is another story. 

I just spent ten minutes finding one and I realise the vehicle number plate is listed as: พระนครศรีอยุธยา   which is appears to be it's full name: Phra Nakhon Si Ayutthaya. I didn't know that.

 

[Bluesofa]

 

Thanks for everything:
It’s very common to think that to say ‘thank you’ is ‘capun-kap’ (when spoken by a male)

To be boringly pedantic this is what we should really be saying and how the phrase is put together:

 

 

More words that (almost) sound the same. Remember to look at the tone signs & vowel length indicators above the words:

Another group:

Some words above are grouped together that have the same tone. The only difference is the length of the vowel (a short vowel has '!' above it)
We wouldn't want anyone getting complacent now would we!

 

 

[Bluesofa]

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

1 hour ago, Bluesofa said:

Good job he's not called green pumpkin - Fuk Khieo

See:  https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/4428-thai-language-thread/page/4/#comment-231337   
 

So if you ask some if they “have vegetables?” is the answer “vegetables have” ??? 

 

To keep this straightforward Fanta, to ask if they have vegetables, you have to put the 'question word' ไหม (mai) at the end.
This word is used to make it clear you are actually asking a question, and need an answer:

มีผักไหม? (mee-pak-mai?)  have vegetables [mai]?

The reply would be  มี (mee) have, or, มีผัก (mee-pak) have vegetables, depending on how lazy the respondent is.

Does that answer your question?

[Fanta]

47 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

Does that answer your question?

Oh,,, it is pak not fuk …

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Oh,,, it is pak not fuk …

Yes, pak=vegetables.
fak-pumpkin/squash

https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ผัก &op=translate

https://translate.google.com/?sl=th&tl=en&text=ฟักเขียว&op=translate

Regarding the google translate links above:
Click on the speaker icon on the left-hand side of the page, below the Thai script, to hear it in Thai.

[Marble-eye]

Just noticed this word on F/B and I just had to look it up, in theory it starts with 5 vowels, have you ever come across this before BS. The word is เอาออกหรือ which means 'take out or', that is the sentence. The ออก means out as can be seen in petrol stations etc, which I suppose that the first word is 3 vowels followed by the start of another word with two vowels.

Who said Thai was complicated.

[Marble-eye]

Would love to hear @Bluesofa feedback on this video, it gives another aspect of learning the tones and pitch which is something I sorta of overlooked. It compliments what BlueSofa has already said. The rest of these Banana Thai videos on YouTube are very good too.

 

 

[Bluesofa]

18 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Would love to hear @Bluesofa feedback on this video, it gives another aspect of learning the tones and pitch which is something I sorta of overlooked. It compliments what BlueSofa has already said. The rest of these Banana Thai videos on YouTube are very good too.

It's the first time I've seen any of the BananaThai videos, the girl's English is very good.

The way the tones are described in the video are different to how my Thai teacher explained it to me.
Hundreds of years ago I was taught that a rising tone went 'down then up', and a falling tone went 'up then down'. That’s why my Pat.Pending symbols use v and ^

For all I know it could just be the way different Thais describe the tones when teaching ferangs?

For example, หมา (ma) dog with a rising tone. When I say it, I make it go down, then up. In the BananaThai video, the girl seems to say it just going up.

Or ม้า (ma) horse with a high tone. When I say it, I make it go upwards. In the BananaThai video, the girl says it using a high tone for the entire word.

Perhaps Thais hear both versions as the same? Or am I reading to much into it?

No one has ever queried if I’m talking about a horse or a dog. Or even if I’m riding a horse (ขี่ม้า) – kee ma or talking about dog poo (ขี้หมา) – kee ma.

Something else that caught my attention in the video was the word grandma (maa), described as having a falling tone (as there’s no Thai script). A word I'd not heard before.
My wife listened to it, she had never heard the word before either. She only knows ยาย (yai) and ย่า (yar). My dictionary has only those same two words for grandma.

 

I googled ‘thai rising falling tones’. This is the first result I found: 
https://slice-of-thai.com/tones/#falling  
They all have audio clips to click on:
บ้าน [bâan] to me, that definitely goes up then down.

A little further down the page under Rising Tone:  ขา [kǎa] again, to me, that one goes down then up.

There’s also this on the same page:  https://slice-of-thai.com/tones/#thai5  
Listening to and looking at the spectrogram, the falling and rising tones do seem to follow the pattern as it was explained to me. Neither of those two go ‘straight down’, or just ‘straight up’.

Perhaps I’m trying to justify how I was taught – what’s your opinion of it?