News Forum - British expats uncovered in Thailand as UK probes pension fraud

[Thaiger]

In a fresh twist for British expats soaking up the sun abroad, the cloak of UK banking secrecy is about to be lifted if there’s a whiff of state pension fraud. The Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, currently being dissected in the House of Lords, is pegged to hit the legal books in early … …

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[AussieBob]

As if the pending income taxation changes are not bad enough, now the Brits in Thailand are going to be targeted for pension fraud by this new lunatic Labor Government in UK. 

Seems the Philippines is the best option for Brits - set up a residence there and get annual pension increases, and then just visit Thailand for 3 months at a time as a Tourist. Spend no more than 179 days in Thailand, and most of the rest in Philippines, and problem solved.  Maybe other countries nearby (Malaysia?) also have annual Pension increases and are not frozen??

Not a concern (yet?) for Aussies - hopefully not for a long time. 

[ChrisS]

Hmmm, looks like a lot of ex pats are about to get poorer.

[AussieBob]

10 hours ago, ChrisS said:

Hmmm, looks like a lot of ex pats are about to get poorer.

Could be an issue for some - probably cause some to set up sticks in a country where there is annual indexation (just in case).  

[Pinetree]

There are a lot of poorly evidenced ideas spouted, surrounding this issue.  The first is that the frozen pension situation in the UK, as far as I know, has never been legally  challenged, up to the Supreme Court,  as I suspect that the DWP would lose under the new discrimination laws. Second, is that the new rules are primarily aimed at those claiming State pension benefits, over and above the basic State Pension, that is indeed clear fraud.  One chap living near me here is claiming a housing allowance, pension credit top ups and disability allowance.  It's idiots like him they are primarily after. Lastly, unless you have PR here, you are not resident here, you are a visitor.  If you continue your UK house, electoral registration, pay UK tax and submit a annual tax return, claim no  State benefits from the UK social care system and don't directly own a house here, as a primary residence, the UK authorities would have a hard time challenging that in the High Court. I suspect that it's not in their interests to try.  Those that think that a clearly inefficient and  dysfunctional UK Civil Service is capable of delivering on this, to any great degree,  are deluded. They will catch a few benefit claimants, no doubt, but the bulk of pensioners, wandering about overseas, cruising the World with the Cruise Lines and having long visits with relatives in other countries, will, I suspect,  be left in peace.

Could be wrong about all of this of course ! 

[23RD]

They'd been better off investigating serious fraud like The Roma Pikey's claiming child benefits in Romania and Bulgaria or The Pakistani/Bangladeshis doing the same for non existent children in their home Countries. 

Or the bogus asylum seekers who came to the UK claimed asylum social housing and benefits then returned to their home Countries and sub let these Council properties the Grenfell Tower fire a,few years ago being a classic example as well as the Afghanistan withdrawal when asylum seekers who were meant to be under protection in the UK were actually back in Afghanistan. 

[Pinetree]

7 minutes ago, 23RD said:

They'd been better off investigating serious fraud like The Roma Pikey's claiming child benefits in Romania and Bulgaria or The Pakistani/Bangladeshis doing the same for non existent children in their home Countries. 

Or the bogus asylum seekers who came to the UK claimed asylum social housing and benefits then returned to their home Countries and sub let these Council properties the Grenfell Tower fire a,few years ago being a classic example as well as the Afghanistan withdrawal when asylum seekers who were meant to be under protection in the UK were actually back in Afghanistan. 

Tut tut, true, but that would be racist and the Communists and woke liberals in, so called, 'charge', don't believe in looking after their regular folk. only the foreign criminals and fraudsters who rip off the various idiot governments of the West. Frankly, I wish I was a US citizen and veteran under their new Administration. 

[Pinetree]

Mistake

[AussieBob]

22 hours ago, Pinetree said:

There are a lot of poorly evidenced ideas spouted, surrounding this issue.  The first is that the frozen pension situation in the UK, as far as I know, has never been legally  challenged, up to the Supreme Court,  as I suspect that the DWP would lose under the new discrimination laws. Second, is that the new rules are primarily aimed at those claiming State pension benefits, over and above the basic State Pension, that is indeed clear fraud.  One chap living near me here is claiming a housing allowance, pension credit top ups and disability allowance.  It's idiots like him they are primarily after. Lastly, unless you have PR here, you are not resident here, you are a visitor.  If you continue your UK house, electoral registration, pay UK tax and submit a annual tax return, claim no  State benefits from the UK social care system and don't directly own a house here, as a primary residence, the UK authorities would have a hard time challenging that in the High Court. I suspect that it's not in their interests to try.  Those that think that a clearly inefficient and  dysfunctional UK Civil Service is capable of delivering on this, to any great degree,  are deluded. They will catch a few benefit claimants, no doubt, but the bulk of pensioners, wandering about overseas, cruising the World with the Cruise Lines and having long visits with relatives in other countries, will, I suspect,  be left in peace.

Could be wrong about all of this of course ! 

I think you are both right and wrong - for both UK and Australia. Overall I believe that Pensioners, both those living at home and those overseas, should be entitled to receive the full Pension payment - including all applicable allowances available - as long as they meet the qualifications. 

I firstly base that on a 'moral' view - given that to live overseas and get the Pension means a person has qualified and meets the obligations required.  Secondly, I base that one economics and financials - for the Government.  In Australia early in 2000s the Senate did a detailed study into the costs and benefits of paying Pensioners living overseas. The target was to show how much money the country 'lost' (beyond simply adding up the Pension payments) and to have 'evidence' to restrict and reduce Pension payments to those living overseas.

Unfortunately (for the Govt), the study concluded that allowing Pensioners to live overseas was a massive overall net-positive effect on the economy. The reasons were clear - Pensioners who live and die in Australia cost the Government a small fortune to support - mainly due to medical expenses, but also all other costs incurred with supporting Pensioners. The study showed that a percentage do come back when they are very aged, but even then, their net costs to the Government are massively less, than if they had stayed in Australia.

I also agree about the technical legalities of 'living in Thailand'. We are not technically living in Thailand - we are all legally Tourists, with no legal rights to stay beyond 3 months. Hence the 90 days reports and the annual renewal process.  For those that do not know, all the Thailand non-immigrant Visas are Tourist Visas (they are all the same under the Act). That is why they only last 90 Days, and likewise that is why the Visa only last 12 months - the maximum period of validity for a Tourist Visa is 12 months. Yes they call it extending your Permission to Stay - but technically and legally they are issuing you another 12 months Visa, for 90 days at a time.  One of the senior managers at Thai Elite explained that many years ago - theirs and all the others are just 'glorified' Tourist Visas.  The process does exist to become a Resident (with rights to stay and no 90 days and annual renewals), but as everyone knows that is very expensive, extremely complicated and takes many years - and the vast majority of applicants are 'rejected'. Therefore technically and legally I/you are not 'living' in Thailand - we are all Tourists. 

However, you are wrong in that it would take a lot for the UK Authority to implement such a change. In Australia the Dept of Immigration provides details to the Social Security Dept of every single Australian Citizen that leaves and enters the country. They use those records to ascertain anyone who is receiving a social security payment and who is overseas for extended period/s. They have decided themselves (not challenged yet) that anyone staying overseas for more than 6 months may no longer be 'domicile' in Australia (they keep watching), and that anyone staying 6-12 months in any one country means they are 'domicile' in that country.  All that has not been challenged, because only overseas Pensioners would have a reason, and we all know that there is only one thing worse than telling a public servant they are an idiot or wrong (or both) and that is taking them to an Appeal Court and proving it. Undertaking that process would inevitably result in a older male Australian having troubles receiving their payments, because there are many things a nasty fat ugly feminist working in the bowels of Government can do out of spite. 

[Pinetree]

2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

In Australia the Dept of Immigration provides details to the Social Security Dept of every single Australian Citizen that leaves and enters the country.

That does not happen in the UK.  There are no outbound Immigration checks in the UK, hence they have no idea how many leave as opposed to stay.  They tried to introduce such checks some years ago, but abandoned the idea shortly after. UK Airlines and ferries are obliged to check and record outbound passenger details, but not foreign carriers and the list is only kept for 60 days.  

[AussieBob]

19 hours ago, Pinetree said:

That does not happen in the UK.  There are no outbound Immigration checks in the UK, hence they have no idea how many leave as opposed to stay.  They tried to introduce such checks some years ago, but abandoned the idea shortly after. UK Airlines and ferries are obliged to check and record outbound passenger details, but not foreign carriers and the list is only kept for 60 days.  

Interesting - I wonder why UK cannot do something so simple. When you depart UK are the UK Passports scanned, or are they stamped? 

[Pinetree]

29 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Interesting - I wonder why UK cannot do something so simple. When you depart UK are the UK Passports scanned, or are they stamped? 

Neither, there is no immigration in attendance for outbound travel. The airline or shipping company are mandated to check passport validity and visa for the first destination;  For the US a  pre check is carried out before travel for US immigration, but none of this records if you leave the country and stay left. As to your comment as to why they can't do it; the answer is easy to give, because they are fxxxing useless at everything, hence the illegal migrant issue. 

[AussieBob]

41 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

Neither, there is no immigration in attendance for outbound travel. The airline or shipping company are mandated to check passport validity and visa for the first destination;  For the US a  pre check is carried out before travel for US immigration, but none of this records if you leave the country and stay left. As to your comment as to why they can't do it; the answer is easy to give, because they are fxxxing useless at everything, hence the illegal migrant issue. 

Unbelievable. Although I know a bloke dealing with Will issues in Germany and Denmark and has all sorts of cross-border and banking problems - as well as getting all the official paperwork completed to finalise the Estate. I cannot believe some of the stories he tells me - they are so incompetent and disorganised - they make Thailand look efficient. I had no idea how well organised they are in Australia until I saw things here and learned about how other countries operate their public service.  Perhaps, if Musk and Milieu have the time, they can 'fix' all western public service organisations.

You are right - they (UK) will only ever find out any Expat living overseas in a country without annual indexation, unless they trip over them, or they are dobbed in.  Always pays to not let people know too much about you - there is always some ars***le who dobs people in.