Covid UPDATE Thursday: 147 Covid-related deaths, 22,782 infections

[Soidog]

15 minutes ago, Manu said:

Indeed, like all most vaccinated contries, Gibraltar, Iceland and indeed the US. In the UK yesterday (60% of fully vaccinated): over 26 000 new cases , 104 deaths so pratically the same numbers than Thailand for the same amount of population. Everything opened now in the Uk, locking down in Thailand... try to get some sense out of it.

Again to my point about Israel. In the U.K. yesterday with 26,000 cases there were around 100 deaths. Back in December when the country was unvaccinated and had 26,000 cases it was around 500 deaths. So vaccines are protecting us from serious illness and death. Vaccines are now turning Covid in to what some people claimed 18 months ago. It’s now like having a bad dose of flu. Unpleasant and not something you would want. But and when you catch it, you should survive it. 

[Manu]

4 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Yes cases are increasing due to Delta variant. Far fewer (50%) less deaths than when Israel was unvaccinated back in December last year. So vaccines are working then. Great news for us all

Vaccines help to reduce death rate amongst vulnerable people (for now anyway, I honestly hope it will stay that way since, the Pfizer for example, clearly loose efficiency after a few months, plenty of sources out there now). But it does not help not to catch nor to transmit the virus (even Fauci had to admit it) so vaccines works on vulnerable people (well, it "helps" since some still die from it) but is useless on the healthy population, and the balance benefits/risks on young people in their 20s, teenagers and kids is clearly not going towards benefits. Vaccines for the vulnerable people, natural immunity amongst young people (well why not since the vulnerables are protected since they are vaccinated) and early treaments for all... and the end of this world fear propaganda and get on with our lives.

[Soidog]

8 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

It's an expression used to indicate that those at highest risk already succumbed during the first wave, and so it is natural that a 2nd or 3rd wave - even if it is just a severe as the 1st one - makes less casualties.

Yes that’s a fair point @BlueSphinx  it is certainly true in the U.K. where many elderly care homes accounted for almost half the deaths. You have certainly modified my opinion and given me food for thought. You would need far greater access to data to look in to this effect. There are however just as many vulnerable and elderly people around today as there were 6 months ago and hence I feel if vaccines were having little effect, we would still see numbers closer to pre-vaccinated numbers. It also worth remembering that in places like the U.K. all restrictions are now lifted and most have been since May and so risk of contracting and dying are higher than they were then 

[Manu]

3 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Again to my point about Israel. In the U.K. yesterday with 26,000 cases there were around 100 deaths. Back in December when the country was unvaccinated and had 26,000 cases it was around 500 deaths. So vaccines are protecting us from serious illness and death. Vaccines are now turning Covid in to what some people claimed 18 months ago. It’s now like having a bad dose of flu. Unpleasant and not something you would want. But and when you catch it, you should survive it. 

If it was just as simple as that... But my point in this comment was not really about vaccines, it was about numbers... 2 countries with same amount of population and roughly same numbers of cases and deaths, one is locking down, the other is all opened... If that makes sense to you, it does not to me.

Just a quick one on December in the UK though... it was not the same variant then (so not the same virus), clearly we know now that the Indian variant, being more transmissible is less leathal than the one responsible of many deaths in the UK and other countries (France for example) over the winter. This might also explained (a little or not, just listening to different scientists, trying to make sense out of it) why both UK and Thailand have currently the same numbers as suffering both from the same Indian variant (which by the way took 2 months to be contained in...India).

[Soidog]

1 minute ago, Manu said:

If it was just as simple as that... But my point in this comment was not really about vaccines, it was about numbers... 2 countries with same amount of population and roughly same numbers of cases and deaths, one is locking down, the other is all opened... If that makes sense to you, it does not to me.

Just a quick one on December in the UK though... it was not the same variant then (so not the same virus), clearly we know now that the Indian variant, being more transmissible is less leathal than the one responsible of many deaths in the UK and other countries (France for example) over the winter. This might also explained (a little or not, just listening to different scientists, trying to make sense out of it) why both UK and Thailand have currently the same numbers as suffering both from the same Indian variant (which by the way took 2 months to be contained in...India).

Fair points here @Manu  although I would have more faith in the U.K. numbers than the Thai numbers. I’m not saying the definition of deaths due to Covid is correct in the U.K., but I think it’s ability to accurately record it’s deaths against that definition is accurate. In Thailand I would imagine many more elderly are dying in villages and being burnt without checks. 
Im less sure about the Delta variant being more transmissible (yes ) but less lethal (unsure). Delta has spread around the world at a time when vaccines are being rolled out. You would need to compare an unvaccinated and well ordered country who’s data collection you could trust to make the comparison with earlier variants compared to now with the Delta variant. I can’t think of any? 

[Dubliner]

The numbers of cases between UK and Thailand are not comparable at all because UK has a huge testing system in place but Thailand does not. It is very difficult to find out how many daily tests are being carried out in Thailand but what we do know is that the delta virus is surging across southeast Asian countries

[Manu]

14 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Fair points here @Manu  although I would have more faith in the U.K. numbers than the Thai numbers. I’m not saying the definition of deaths due to Covid is correct in the U.K., but I think it’s ability to accurately record it’s deaths against that definition is accurate. In Thailand I would imagine many more elderly are dying in villages and being burnt without checks. 
Im less sure about the Delta variant being more transmissible (yes ) but less lethal (unsure). Delta has spread around the world at a time when vaccines are being rolled out. You would need to compare an unvaccinated and well ordered country who’s data collection you could trust to make the comparison with earlier variants compared to now with the Delta variant. I can’t think of any? 

We have to rely on numbers we have, listen to scientists how they interpret those numbers and make our own opinions if we wish to do so. But then all numbers could be questionable, for example in the UK the notion "died from being infected with Sars-cov-2 within the last 28 days" could also be questioned. Or indeed numbers given by Neil Ferguson in the Uk, which have been constantly wrong since 2003 and indeed all along since March last year but was a SAGE advisor (before being kicked out as he drove 100 miles to see his girlfriend when everybody else in the Uk were locked up at home... the arrogance of this guy is fantastic) and still a hugely listened and influencal voice in the media and in the government... the same that earned millions in cash and shares from the pharmaceutical industry so he should simply not being allowed to speak publicly on the subject... So you know, numbers... either you question them all or you rely on them all. Only time will tell...

[King Cotton]

1 hour ago, Dubliner said:

The numbers of cases between UK and Thailand are not comparable at all because UK has a huge testing system in place but Thailand does not. It is very difficult to find out how many daily tests are being carried out in Thailand but what we do know is that the delta virus is surging across southeast Asian countries

A daunting picture for sure, portrayed by your debut post.

 

Hello, Dubliner and welcome to Thaiger Talk

Please feel free to tell us a bit about yourself in 'Introductions'. It's good to pick-up on those sometimes differing regional or geographical perspectives.

And check-out the Guidelines, too, when you get a free minute. They're there to help us all enjoy our time here.

Happy posting

King Cotton

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, Manu said:

We have to rely on numbers we have, listen to scientists how they interpret those numbers and make our own opinions if we wish to do so. But then all numbers could be questionable, for example in the UK the notion "died from being infected with Sars-cov-2 within the last 28 days" could also be questioned. Or indeed numbers given by Neil Ferguson in the Uk, which have been constantly wrong since 2003 and indeed all along since March last year but was a SAGE advisor (before being kicked out as he drove 100 miles to see his girlfriend when everybody else in the Uk were locked up at home... the arrogance of this guy is fantastic) and still a hugely listened and influencal voice in the media and in the government... the same that earned millions in cash and shares from the pharmaceutical industry so he should simply not being allowed to speak publicly on the subject... So you know, numbers... either you question them all or you rely on them all. Only time will tell...

Yes agreed. As I said, I’m not saying the definition of a Covid death in the U.K. is correct. Within 28 days of a positive death seems ridiculous to me. However, having set a definition, however flawed, you should at least report accurately against it. I think the U.K. does that. Whereas whatever the definition of a Covid death is in Thailand (do we know?), I still question local ability to capture and report it. Especially if it’s written on paper rather than a central reporting system. Different definitions will of course change the relative number. But each definition will still be good to show the amount and rate of change from one day to the next. 
 

Just as an aside, I once worked for a telecoms service company. There were 4 regions across the country at the time and each with a slightly different definition of their performance indicators. Something as simple as defining if a failure to fix a fault on the day of appointment became entrenched. What if the customer wasn’t in when you arrived? Should that count against the technician? What if they were in but didn’t answer the door?  Should that count. Maybe the technician only rang the bell once and not three times? And on and on and on the discussions went. In the end, as the manager, I said keep your own definition and I’ll just look for the rate of change and improvement within each region rather than compare one region with another. Stats and data are a nightmare !! 

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Dubliner said:

The numbers of cases between UK and Thailand are not comparable at all because UK has a huge testing system in place but Thailand does not. It is very difficult to find out how many daily tests are being carried out in Thailand but what we do know is that the delta virus is surging across southeast Asian countries

Unless you are also questioning the number of deaths from COVID in Thailand then the number of tests carried out is irrelevant since the important in a pandemic is people dying… not to mention that the PCR tests are hugely inaccurate, and that is a none questionable fact anymore. Indeed the Indian variant is surging in SE Asia and the fact that neighbouring countries seem to have similar numbers and trend than Thailand show somehow that the numbers in Thailand are probably at least not far from the truth. Either that or it is a huge coincidence…

[Donald]

9 hours ago, JackIsAGoodBoy said:

New record since February in the very much vaccinated Israel, 5755 new cases yesterday. Thailand should consider something else like Ivermectin instead of trying to repeat the same failed recipe. Madness!

Yes, I agree. Why is so much emphasis put on vaccination and so little on treatment ? Could it be that the pharmaceutical industry has a bigger interest in promoting vaccination with a huge profit margin then selling pharmaceuticals which are cheap and who's patent have already run out leaving little money to be made.

[Manu]

11 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Yes agreed. As I said, I’m not saying the definition of a Covid death in the U.K. is correct. Within 28 days of a positive death seems ridiculous to me. However, having set a definition, however flawed, you should at least report accurately against it. I think the U.K. does that. Whereas whatever the definition of a Covid death is in Thailand (do we know?), I still question local ability to capture and report it. Especially if it’s written on paper rather than a central reporting system. Different definitions will of course change the relative number. But each definition will still be good to show the amount and rate of change from one day to the next. 
 

Just as an aside, I once worked for a telecoms service company. There were 4 regions across the country at the time and each with a slightly different definition of their performance indicators. Something as simple as defining if a failure to fix a fault on the day of appointment became entrenched. What if the customer wasn’t in when you arrived? Should that count against the technician? What if they were in but didn’t answer the door?  Should that count. Maybe the technician only rang the bell once and not three times? And on and on and on the discussions went. In the end, as the manager, I said keep your own definition and I’ll just look for the rate of change and improvement within each region rather than compare one region with another. Stats and data are a nightmare !! 

Firstly I understand your point but disagree, but I already answered that. The second part of my answer is contained in my answer to Dubliner above.                                      I agree that stats can be a nightmare generally but I do not think it applies to science, unless it is biased by corrupt scientists. And I don’t know on that subject with Thailand although the country suffers from corruption in many others domains. But I know for sure that in the uk, decisions (that are essentially political and not medical ones) are being influenced by corrupt scientists at the highest level. And that goes for all rich countries in the west. And this is exactly what caused the so much higher death rates in those countries comparing to poorer ones that are for no interest to the pharmaceutical industry cause they can’t afford those expensive vaccines. For example Pfizer is not willing to give free patent / rights to these poor countries but at the same time rise the price of 20% for the rich ones… before a safer, more effective and cheaper vaccine comes along I guess… This is the world we live in… before COVID, during Covid, and after COVID.

[Manu]

12 minutes ago, Donald said:

Yes, I agree. Why is so much emphasis put on vaccination and so little on treatment ? Could it be that the pharmaceutical industry has a bigger interest in promoting vaccination with a huge profit margin then selling pharmaceuticals which are cheap and who's patent have already run out leaving little money to be made.

Yes and yes… I can hardly believe that it is not now obvious to everyone. 

[BraveNewFahrenheit]

9 hours ago, dmacarelli said:

Is anyone questioning whether or not this punishing economic lockdown is working?

Nobody really knows why, but no other explanation makes sense anymore.

 

Some of us have been questioning it since April of 2020.

It is now the middle of August 2021, if anyone still believes this is about saving lives or making sure we don't overwhelm the health care system then I would say those people are gone, we lost them and they ain't coming back.

Rational critical thinkers will ask why Australia is locking down for around 6 cases-NOT DEATHS-cases. Why big business is ok to operate, but not your mom and pop shop, why stock markets are at all time highs, why the G7 and Obama have huge unmasked parties but you try to drink a beer with two friends and its off to jail.

I admit, I don't know what the end game is, but this is certainly not about health. We have ruined childhoods, people had parents die alone, business' destroyed, entire industries decimated, people taught to fear one another, the richest 1% have become even richer and more powerful over the last 18 months, we still do not have an answer to how Covid originated and if you DARE question anything about the narrative to all of this you are branded, anti-vaxxer, science denier, grandma killer.

We are living in very ominous times.

Edited August 12, 2021 by BraveNewFahrenheit

[Objectivance]

16 minutes ago, Donald said:

Yes, I agree. Why is so much emphasis put on vaccination and so little on treatment ? Could it be that the pharmaceutical industry has a bigger interest in promoting vaccination with a huge profit margin then selling pharmaceuticals which are cheap and who's patent have already run out leaving little money to be made.

[Objectivance]

2 minutes ago, BraveNewFahrenheit said:

Some of us have been questioning it since April of 2020.

It is now the middle of August 2021, if anyone still believes this is about saving lives or making sure we don't overwhelm the health care system then I would say those people are gone, we lost them and they ain't coming back.

Rational critical thinkers will ask why Australia is locking down for around 6 cases-NOT DEATHS-cases. Why big business is ok to operate, but not your mom and pop shop, why stock markets are at all time highs, why the G7 and Obama have huge unmasked parties but you try to drink a beer with two friends and its off to jail.

I admit, I don't know what the end game is, but this is certainly not about health. We have ruined childhoods, people had parents die alone, business' destroyed, entire industries decimated, people taught to fear one another, the richest 1% have become even richer and more powerful over the last 18 months, we still do not have an answer to were Covid originated and if you DARE question anything about the narrative to all of this you are branded, anti-vaxxer, science denier, grandma killer.

We are living in very ominous times.

Transfer of wealth, never been anything more nor less. 

/thread 

[Manu]

13 minutes ago, BraveNewFahrenheit said:

We are living in very ominous times.

Well there is even a name for it: the “new normal “ world. Like you, as I guess everyone who question things cause, well, things “don’t seem quite right” (that’s what I say now so I don’t get insulted with the C word…no, not that one… not Covid either, but Conspiracy theorist), I don’t know where all this leads us… a very uncertain future in which the words truth and freedom will have complete meanings.

[BraveNewFahrenheit]

2 hours ago, Objectivance said:

Transfer of wealth, never been anything more nor less. 

/thread 

I think there is something bigger, it gets touched upon for a moment in this podcast from the other day:

If it is something to do with the great reset I could somewhat understand it, not that I agree to it on the global elites terms but it is at least understandable. October 2019 I said I was done with the Bangkok. The air was unbreathable, the traffic, the sanook factor was seriously waning and the mass Chinese tourism destroying any thing in its path was too much.

Yeah the Thais had made a fair bit of money but at what cost, totally polluted, people stressed out and everything stretched to the max.

So maybe this is their way of doing a soft crash landing. First stop global travel, get everyone used to staying at home and STAYING LOCKED DOWN and from there after having lost the will to live many will just shrivel up and slowly die off, they sure wont be out hooking up, having kids and starting a new business.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Smithydog
Removed expletive

[Manu]

28 minutes ago, Manu said:a very uncertain future in which the words truth and freedom will have complete meanings.

I meant different complete meanings obviously 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Donald said:

 Could it be that the pharmaceutical industry has a bigger interest in promoting vaccination with a huge profit margin then selling pharmaceuticals which are cheap and who's patent have already run out leaving little money to be made.

No - do the maths.

 

It's an attractive idea for the big pharma conspiracy theorists, but the money to be made from successful treatment, if any existed, would massively outweigh the money from vaccinations as it would be a constant ongoing demand rather than limited vaccinations.

[BraveNewFahrenheit]

37 minutes ago, Manu said:

Well there is even a name for it: the “new normal “ world. Like you, as I guess everyone who question things cause, well, things “don’t seem quite right” (that’s what I say now so I don’t get insulted with the C word…no, not that one… not Covid either, but Conspiracy theorist), I don’t know where all this leads us… a very uncertain future in which the words truth and freedom will have complete meanings.

I highly suggest you take 30 mins and watch this if you have not already, and everyone else should take the time to view it as well...our friends at YouTube have made it age restricted so you need to sign it. But its worth it.

 

2020: A Propaganda Masterpiece | Perspectives on the Pandemic XVII

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by BraveNewFahrenheit

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Manu said:

But it does not help not to catch nor to transmit the virus (even Fauci had to admit it) so vaccines works on vulnerable people (well, it "helps" since some still die from it) but is useless on the healthy population, and the balance benefits/risks on young people in their 20s, teenagers and kids is clearly not going towards benefits

"useless"?  Oh please .....  Less use doesn't mean useless!

 

... just as less benefit doesn't mean no benefit.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Manu said:

But I know for sure that in the uk, decisions (that are essentially political and not medical ones) are being influenced by corrupt scientists at the highest level.

Do you really?

 

Would you mind letting us mere mortals know how you know that for sure?

[Manu]

 

9 minutes ago, Stonker said:

No - do the maths.

It's an attractive idea for the big pharma conspiracy theorists, but the money to be made from successful treatment, if any existed, would massively outweigh the money from vaccinations as it would be a constant ongoing demand rather than limited vaccinations.

Well you are obviously not aware how much ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine and a couple of others cost. A fraction of a vaccine, 1000 times cheaper than remdesevir which was given to patients in the west last year  (the us, uk, France,…), it was hugely promoted by fauci in the US and other corrupt scientists. Gilead, the manufacturer of that crap, tried to flog it for aids, did not work. Tried for ebola, did not work. So they gave it a go for COVID of course with the help of fauci and co. I repeat: 3000 euros for a remdesevir treatment, less than 10 for HQC or ivermectin. In October, WHO finally recognised that it was not working as well as being toxic… 3 days before the EU bought 1 billion euros of it. Gilead made 900 millions profits. That’s the way it works. So instead of insulting people with your “conspiracy “ crap, come along with some facts or shut up.

[Manu]

11 minutes ago, Stonker said:

"useless"?  Oh please .....  Less use doesn't mean useless!

... just as less benefit doesn't mean no benefit.

If the risks are higher than the benefits, than it is at least useless, at the worse dangerous. Not me saying this but science