News Forum - Singapore Airlines emergency landing claims one life, injures 30

[Pinetree]

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

I recommend trying to be less toxic in the way you engage with people.

As I said, it will be interesting to read the outcome of the inquiry on this incident. Here is a take from a relevant source:

What happened to flight SQ321?

Can turbulence be forecast?
Crews plan ahead by studying turbulence and other weather forecasts, which have improved over the years, loading extra fuel when needed and monitoring weather radar during flight.
[...]
Why was this so sudden?
Aviation expert Keith Tonkin told ABC News Breakfast that while turbulence can usually be forecast, it seems this was not expected.
"A lot of effort goes towards forecasting weather conditions all around the world and most of the time it is pretty accurate," he said.
"But it's not an absolute certainty that we know what is going to be encountered from time to time."
He said for some reason, the pilot did not expect the turbulence and they weren't prepared to get passengers to buckle up.
"There were people walking around and having their breakfast, and a lot of people seemingly didn't have their seatbelts on," he said.
He said an investigation would provide more clarity.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-22/what-is-aircraft-turbulence-and-how-common-is-it/103876998


 

 

Keith Tonkin, whomever he may be,  sounds about as knowledgeable as you are apparently.  Sounds like a dick to me.  What is he saying then, in the absence of any prior knowledge of CAT, which cannot be predicted by anyone, food must never be served and toilet breaks are never to be  allowed.  Give me a break, what nonsense.  I have over 10,000 hours on the B777- 200 and 300 ER, on an Asian airline route network, so I know of what I speak. Speculation like this is not only unhelpful to future passengers, its alarmist.  

 

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[rattlesnake]

7 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

Keith Tonkin, whomever he may be,  sounds about as knowledgeable as you are apparently.  Sounds like a dick to me.  What is he saying then, in the absence of any prior knowledge of CAT, which cannot be predicted by anyone, food must never be served and toilet breaks are never to be  allowed.  Give me a break, what nonsense.  I have over 10,000 hours on the B777- 200 and 300 ER, on an Asian airline route network, so I know of what I speak. Speculation like this is not only unhelpful to future passengers, its alarmist.  

 

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Here is his CV. I think it is not unreasonale to speculate he may actually be more qualified than Pinetree on this issue.

Aviation Projects Managing Director and Principal Consultant, Keith Tonkin is one of the world’s leading aviation experts.
[...]
Keith served 15 years in the Royal Australian Air Force, first flying short-haul tactical transport and humanitarian operations in the Caribou then projecting Australia’s Air Power with the supersonic long-range F-111 in strike and reconnaissance roles.

Nine years of international and domestic airline operations followed, flying for Qantas in the Classic B747-300/400 and B737-300, 400 and 800-series aircraft.

He now leads Aviation Projects, a specialist consultancy providing trusted advice about airport planning, development and operations, aerodrome safeguarding and strategic planning.

Keith has numerous post-graduate qualifications which make his knowledge and expertise truly unique. These qualifications include an MBA (Aviation Management) and approval by Australia’s Civil Aviation Safety Authority to conduct aerodrome safety inspections.
[...]
Keith is directly engaged by law firms, government agencies and companies and the media to deliver expert evidence in environmental and development planning cases as well as provide his expert advice relating to key aviation issues. He is also called upon to provide evidence in aviation liability matters and coronial inquests. Keith is trusted as an expert aviation commentator during significant aviation events.

https://www.aviationprojects.com.au/people-view/keith-tonkin-4

[Pinetree]

10 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Here is his CV. I think it is not unreasonale to speculate he may actually be more qualified than Pinetree on this issue.

Aviation Projects Managing Director and Principal Consultant, Keith Tonkin is one of the world’s leading aviation experts.
[...]
Keith served 15 years in the Royal Australian Air Force, first flying short-haul tactical transport and humanitarian operations in the Caribou then projecting Australia’s Air Power with the supersonic long-range F-111 in strike and reconnaissance roles.

Nine years of international and domestic airline operations followed, flying for Qantas in the Classic B747-300/400 and B737-300, 400 and 800-series aircraft.

He now leads Aviation Projects, a specialist consultancy providing trusted advice about airport planning, development and operations, aerodrome safeguarding and strategic planning.

Keith has numerous post-graduate qualifications which make his knowledge and expertise truly unique. These qualifications include an MBA (Aviation Management) and approval by Australia’s Civil Aviation Safety Authority to conduct aerodrome safety inspections.
[...]
Keith is directly engaged by law firms, government agencies and companies and the media to deliver expert evidence in environmental and development planning cases as well as provide his expert advice relating to key aviation issues. He is also called upon to provide evidence in aviation liability matters and coronial inquests. Keith is trusted as an expert aviation commentator during significant aviation events.

https://www.aviationprojects.com.au/people-view/keith-tonkin-4

Well judging by his reported comments that you posted, he has either been misquoted, half quoted, quoted out of context ,  or he doesnt know what he's talking about and is playing to the media.  It's one or more of those things. Its not a matter of who is 'more qualified , whatever that means.  We are  not comparing genitalia here. I stick to my 45 years of aviation knowledge experience and expertise on aviation matters.  

[rattlesnake]

47 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

Well judging by his reported comments that you posted, he has either been misquoted, half quoted, quoted out of context ,  or he doesnt know what he's talking about and is playing to the media.  It's one or more of those things. Its not a matter of who is 'more qualified , whatever that means.  We are  not comparing genitalia here. I stick to my 45 years of aviation knowledge experience and expertise on aviation matters.  

"We are  not comparing genitalia here"
You are the one who called Keith Tonkin a dick because you didn't like what you read. You are quick to resort to insults, easily triggered and have an overinflated ego, I will not aggravate you further.

[Pinetree]

7 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I will not aggravate you further.

good

[TedG]

18 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

"We are  not comparing genitalia here"
You are the one who called Keith Tonkin a dick because you didn't like what you read. You are quick to resort to insults, easily triggered and have an overinflated ego, I will not aggravate you further.

Why would you not want to listen to an experienced Airline pilot on this site?  

[rattlesnake]

9 minutes ago, TedG said:

Why would you not want to listen to an experienced Airline pilot on this site?  

I limit my interactions with obnoxious people, regardless of their occupation.

[TedG]

25 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I limit my interactions with obnoxious people, regardless of their occupation.

You perfer interactions with people who tell you want you want to hear. 

[rattlesnake]

17 minutes ago, TedG said:

You perfer interactions with people who tell you want you want to hear. 

If that were the case, I would seldom answer you. Still waiting for your input on this, by the way:
 

 

[Marc26]

6 hours ago, Pinetree said:

Rubbish mate.  There is no way to predict CAT.  There would have been no panic on the Flight Deck and all airline pilots train for such eventualities  in the simulator.  They would have disconnected both APs, if they didn't auto disconnect and the Auto throttle, selected idle in both engines and allowed the aircraft to stabilize in a rapid decent to a thicker atmosphere were they could reconnect both AP and AT, as manual control at their reported cruise height is next to impossible.  It sounds to me that the crew did a very good job, in the decent, the stabilization phase and the divert. The turbulence was just bad luck and it can happen to any flight at any time.    

I love hearing from an expert in these things......thanks

[ChrisS]

15 hours ago, Mamachigawa said:

To be expected when having damaged heart muscles. Another victim of  vaccines.

And your evidence for this statement is? Bloke was in his 70s and being thrown about in a plane heat attack possibly not that surprising.

[TedG]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

If that were the case, I would seldom answer you. Still waiting for your input on this, by the way:
 

Hold your breath. 

[Grumpish]

4 hours ago, ChrisS said:

And your evidence for this statement is? Bloke was in his 70s and being thrown about in a plane heat attack possibly not that surprising.

It has been conclusively proved by the anti-vaccine fraternity that mRNA vaccines are now the sole cause of  all heart attacks, thrombosis, cancers, and a whole host of other ailments, although it is a puzzle why that should be so, since all those ailments were commonplace prior to the advent of the vaccines.   

[Pinetree]

I have been given some information from the operations centre at my old airline that may be of interest to those who haven't already made up their mind on what actually happened. This prelim report states that moderate turbulence was expected from cunims in the area and had been pre briefed,  but were being avoided by the crew and in any event were below their cruising Flight Level. This goes to explain why the cabin crew was allowed to serve breakfast.  The CAT that the aircraft experienced was undetected and transitory in nature and of sufficient  force to cause the damage.  G Forces may have been in the region of 2.5G vertically. The report that the aircraft 'lost 6,000ft' is reported to be incorrect.  That decent was initiated by the crew at a rate of 2,000 feet per minute for 3 minutes.  This rate of decent is entirely within the normal range and not at all excessive.  

I cannot verify if any of this is entirely accurate, as it comes to me second hand. I can only say that the aircrew in my old airline have been given this preliminary information. 

I have attached a link to show how upset recovery in trained for in the simulator, which I'm sure will be of interest to some of you.  It is also on the B777. All aircrew go through this type of training regularly. Enjoy the vid. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OasrxfOvPr8&t=153s

 

[rattlesnake]

Singapore Airlines tightens cabin safety measures after turbulence killed one, injured dozens

https://apnews.com/article/singapore-airlines-turbulence-safety-measures-1dcc681ee58c9418aa5e7a2a159249da

[Pinetree]

3 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Singapore Airlines tightens cabin safety measures after turbulence killed one, injured dozens

https://apnews.com/article/singapore-airlines-turbulence-safety-measures-1dcc681ee58c9418aa5e7a2a159249da

Umm, bit of a meaningless statement.   It is always a decision taken by the Captain and the Cabin Manager.  Its a fine line that can severely impact customer experience, airline reputation and perception. As CAT is impossible to predict and thunderstorm activity is common in many areas of the World, it will remain a difficult call for the Flight Crew. 

[rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, Pinetree said:

Umm, bit of a meaningless statement.   It is always a decision taken by the Captain and the Cabin Manager.  Its a fine line that can severely impact customer experience, airline reputation and perception. As CAT is impossible to predict and thunderstorm activity is common in many areas of the World, it will remain a difficult call for the Flight Crew. 

Sounds like PR to show they care, safeguarding their image…

How long do you reckon the investigation and publication of the results will take?

[Pinetree]

15 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Sounds like PR to show they care, safeguarding their image…

How long do you reckon the investigation and publication of the results will take?

I would think a couple of months at most. The thing is, its not a particularly rare phenomena.  Between  2009 to 2021 there were 146 reported injuries' due to similar incidents, not a lot considering the scale of the aviation industry and how often moderate to severe turbulence is encountered . 

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2024/05/21/fatalities-and-serious-injuries-from-turbulence-are-rare-but-climate-change-is-making-it-w

[TedG]

On 5/23/2024 at 3:18 AM, Pinetree said:

 

I have attached a link to show how upset recovery in trained for in the simulator, which I'm sure will be of interest to some of you.  It is also on the B777. All aircrew go through this type of training regularly. Enjoy the vid. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OasrxfOvPr8&t=153s

Would that be harder in darkness? 

[rattlesnake]

2 hours ago, Pinetree said:

I would think a couple of months at most. The thing is, its not a particularly rare phenomena.  Between  2009 to 2021 there were 146 reported injuries' due to similar incidents, not a lot considering the scale of the aviation industry and how often moderate to severe turbulence is encountered . 

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2024/05/21/fatalities-and-serious-injuries-from-turbulence-are-rare-but-climate-change-is-making-it-w

At least this unfortunate incident will have been a wake up call for a lot of people. Most people were not aware that such an event was a possibility, however rare. I certainly wasn't.

In all my flights between Asia and Europe over the past 15 years, I never thought that I was at risk of being projected through the luggage compartment while going to the toilet.

The graphs in this article show the incredible violence of the movements:

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/SINGAPOREAIRLINES-THAILAND/movaqnmeava/ 

[Pinetree]

15 hours ago, TedG said:

Would that be harder in darkness? 

A little more challenging yes,