News Forum - Disgraced Khon Kaen school director nabbed for buying sex from student, 12

[Thaiger]

Authorities in Khon Kaen have launched an investigation into allegations of child sex abuse after the arrest of a school director and a retired teacher accused of purchasing sex from a 12-year-old student. The school director has been reassigned to the local educational services office and will face disciplinary action, according to Thee Pawangkhanan, deputy … …

The story Disgraced Khon Kaen school director nabbed for buying sex from student, 12 as seen on Thaiger News.

Read the full story

[Fanta]

14 hours ago, Thaiger said:

The school director has been reassigned to the local educational services office and will face disciplinary action

My vote is for a public flogging, as a warm up. 

[LeReynard]

Given the school director was not legally punished, merely disciplined at work, I will assume this is cops looking into child trafficking, and this guy was found not to be involved in that.

Which itself reminds us. Sexual activity with teenagers is not really a big deal (in itself) in Thai culture, and this is because of cultural attitudes to privacy, leading to attitudes regarding sex, and also those about youth and growing up.

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, LeReynard said:

Sexual activity with teenagers is not really a big deal (in itself) in Thai culture, and this is because of cultural attitudes to privacy, leading to attitudes regarding sex, and also those about youth and growing up.

An adult sexually assaulting a 12 year old child is a criminal offense so he’s going to the monkey house. 

[Ramanathan.P]

My be that director is far sighted in the sense that as per TAT's forecast of 270million tourists in 2037, they need a bigger workforce for the tourism and entertaiment industry......

[ChrisS]

"The school director has been reassigned to the local educational services office and will face disciplinary action, according to Thee Pawangkhanan, deputy secretary-general of the Office of the Basic Education Commission (Obec)."

Disgraceful by the Office of the Basic Education Commission that he has not at the least been suspended pending the outcome of the investigation following his arrest.

6 hours ago, LeReynard said:

Which itself reminds us. Sexual activity with teenagers is not really a big deal (in itself) in Thai culture, and this is because of cultural attitudes to privacy, leading to attitudes regarding sex, and also those about youth and growing up.

First the girl is reported as 12 so not yet even a teenager. Second of you read the story my take on it is that he has been arrested alongside others and criminal charges will follow when all investigations have been completed. (with the usual caveat of all Thai 'justice' cases that if he pays the right people it can be conveniently dropped)

[LeReynard]

58 minutes ago, ChrisS said:

"The school director has been reassigned to the local educational services office and will face disciplinary action, according to Thee Pawangkhanan, deputy secretary-general of the Office of the Basic Education Commission (Obec)."

Disgraceful by the Office of the Basic Education Commission that he has not at the least been suspended pending the outcome of the investigation following his arrest.

First the girl is reported as 12 so not yet even a teenager. Second of you read the story my take on it is that he has been arrested alongside others and criminal charges will follow when all investigations have been completed. (with the usual caveat of all Thai 'justice' cases that if he pays the right people it can be conveniently dropped)

You know full well that childhood ends at 12, which is in fact the 13th year, given that we are born when we are age 0. And these stories never supply the Tanner stage of the minor. Because some 10-15 year olds of any age, are physically slower or faster at attaining physical maturity, than is average.

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, LeReynard said:

You know full well that childhood ends at 12, which is in fact the 13th year, given that we are born when we are age 0. And these stories never supply the Tanner stage of the minor. Because some 10-15 year olds of any age, are physically slower or faster at attaining physical maturity, than is average.

You make me angry. 

[rattlesnake]

30 minutes ago, LeReynard said:

You know full well that childhood ends at 12, which is in fact the 13th year, given that we are born when we are age 0. And these stories never supply the Tanner stage of the minor. Because some 10-15 year olds of any age, are physically slower or faster at attaining physical maturity, than is average.

Jesus man, I assume you don't have children?

[LeReynard]

It's amusing how easy some folk are to trigger with this subject. Nowhere did I endorse the abuse of authority involved - there is enough truth in feminist talk about 'power imbalance' to judge negatively like that.

This sort of news story does never give facts about the physical development and emotional maturity of the pubescent minors involved. Though it is ethically relevant, and judges do ask questions about this.

[LeReynard]

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

Jesus man, I assume you don't have children?

Obviously not, since it warps critical thinking.

[rattlesnake]

13 minutes ago, LeReynard said:

It's amusing how easy some folk are to trigger with this subject. Nowhere did I endorse the abuse of authority involved - there is enough truth in feminist talk about 'power imbalance' to judge negatively like that.

This sort of news story does never give facts about the physical development and emotional maturity of the pubescent minors involved. Though it is ethically relevant, and judges do ask questions about this.

I could understand where you were coming from when you rationalised the issue regarding 14 year-olds in another recent thread (though I did not agree with everything you said), but 12 year-olds? You're either over-rationalising, or you have unhealthy interests. A 12 year-old is a child.

[LeReynard]

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

I could understand where you were coming from when you rationalised the issue regarding 14 year-olds in another recent thread (though I did not agree with everything you said), but 12 year-olds? You're either over-rationalising, or you have unhealthy interests. A 12 year-old is a child.

Well which 12 year old? Most girls have reached menarche before they turn 13, but fewer at 12. Though it isn't really remarkable, to have menarche at 10: and after menarche, it's usually 2 years later, that the menses are regular (ie. real onset of fertility, if you like) and her pelvis will have grown and altered, for a wider, safer birth passage, and also to signal her fertility to males through iliac flaring, creating a hourglass body shape.

So some 12 year olds, who are not very exceptional, will be at a stage more typical of 14 year olds - and also a teenager by the same measure. I wasn't actually thinking about a spin on tnings, for better trolling, when I said some 12 year olds are teenagers, but others aren't. It's just a fact that variation within any population, exists in human growth.

And this is relevant in psychiatry and sexology, as well as criminology. It is also ethically relevant, as to how developed and emotionally mature, pubescent minors are. At the time of the incident, and for different  reasons, at the time of the trial, which is why judges ask this for the consideration of juries. So I think media coverage of such incidents, should report on those facts, as an ethical point.

And in any case, she 12 has often enough referred to or treated as teenage, over the years. 

[TedG]

4 hours ago, LeReynard said:

You know full well that childhood ends at 12, which is in fact the 13th year, given that we are born when we are age 0. And these stories never supply the Tanner stage of the minor. Because some 10-15 year olds of any age, are physically slower or faster at attaining physical maturity, than is average.

You know full well that adults should not be paying a 12-year-old for sex. 

[LeReynard]

1 minute ago, TedG said:

You know full well that adults should not be paying a 12-year-old for sex. 

Well, nowhere did I say they should.

I did point out that missing details are relevant, and so ought to have mattered to the journo.

That and yank some people's chains, with a bit of facts.

[ChicagoExpat]

@LeReynard  Congratulations!  You're the only guy who ever could have put me, @Fanta, and @rattlesnake on the same side of an issue.

And we'll find our own babysitters, but thanks for the offer.

[MrStretch]

Those that are vilifying LeReynard for his observations and comments are really confusing apples with oranges.

He's referring to a biological state of being while everyone against him seems to be hanging their arguments on societal teachings and norms.

Nowhere have I seen him advocate for under age sexual relations, just that there are some biological indicators that haven't been included.

[LeReynard]

5 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

@LeReynard  Congratulations!  You're the only guy who ever could have put me, @Fanta, and @rattlesnake on the same side of an issue.

And we'll find our own babysitters, but thanks for the offer.

Why can't some people just admit they are wrong?

If a simple web search can confirm you are wrong, looking at dictionaries and medical usage, you are either wrong or, at least, the opposing opinion may hardly be dismissed.

The definitions I use are quite mainstream, at least if we consider adolescent to be a synonym of teenage, as per the dictionary, and more importantly, medical science.

"In the broadest sense, adolescence refers to the period marking the transition from childhood to adulthood. Historically, this typically spans from 12 to 18..."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4543091/

"It begins with the start of puberty, which in girls is usually at the age of 12–13 years and in boys about 14 years, and usually lasts until 19 years of age."

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095352968

Johns Hopkins do consider adolescence as starting at 13. However, "The teenage years are also called adolescence." 

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/the-growing-child-adolescent-13-to-18-years

One very useful paper on the origin of human adolrscence, states that adolescence in man usually begins at age 11, both in a bar chart and in the text.

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-113/figures/1

(From https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-113 )

A number of sources regard adolescence as starting as early as 10, including the prestigious medical journal, The Lancet.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(18)30022-1/abstract

This is taken up by the WHO. "Adolescence is the phase of life between childhood and adulthood, from ages 10 to 19."

https://www.who.int/health-topics/adolescent-health#tab=tab_1

So nothing I have said in this thread is fringe.

[LeReynard]

It's also worth asking what paedophilia is. The current ICD does not specify beyond that the erotic target must be pre-pubertal.

"Pedophilic disorder is characterised by a sustained, focused, and intense pattern of sexual arousal—as manifested by persistent sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, or behaviours—involving pre-pubertal children. "

The DSM-5-TR, similarly defines paedophilia without stating an age, but by reference to a developmental stage. Formerly age 13 had been specified, with Tanner Stage 3 in mind, and this is important.

• "An individual who has had arousing fantasies about, urges for, or behaviors with a prepubescent child or children."

As we all know what the Tanner stages are. The third stage marks mid puberty, meaning that minors in early puberty are more like children, and are perceived so by others.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470280/

Yes it does matter, in a trial, wether the minor is physically and mentally precocious or not.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20 by LeReynard

[LeReynard]

Now when do girls reach Tanner Stage 3?

In Denmark girls have reached it at 12.3-13, with breast maturation slightly preceding that of the pubic hair.

See table 2.

https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(23)00510-4/fulltext

 

[LeReynard]

2 hours ago, MrStretch said:

Those that are vilifying LeReynard for his observations and comments are really confusing apples with oranges.

He's referring to a biological state of being while everyone against him seems to be hanging their arguments on societal teachings and norms.

Nowhere have I seen him advocate for under age sexual relations, just that there are some biological indicators that haven't been included.

Well indeed. And I was criticised for suggesting a 12 year old might be a teenager, bringing in the semantics of the word.

My own feelings are that the Argentine law is the most realist. An age of consent at 13, with exceptions for authority figures, like this teacher in the news story, who might be abusing trust.

It's most correct to the Western cultural tradition, and to the natural social sciences, and to social facts about people in their formative years. As I might have said, I would also add the qualifier of biomarkers, relating to mid-puberty, as having more import than DoB.

I only really object to statutory rape when It's one of three things: 1) minors lying about their age, 2) both parties might be thought teens or youth, by a mainstream usage or definition, or 3) when proven affection and responsible care can be demonstrated to be mutual, or at least sincere on the part of the older partner.

None of these concerns is unusual.

[ChicagoExpat]

Admit we're wrong?  About what?

I didn't really pay attention to the volumes you have written in other threads on what appeared to be the glories of adult male-child sexual relationships, so I'm mostly responding to what you wrote here.

1) You are trying to justify sex between adults and 12 year olds (they are, after all, in the 13th year).  Maybe other fora you might frequent applaud this, but that will never happen here or, really, anywhere normal people congregate.  You know this -- there's a reason you don't bring this up when face to face with guys in the bar, or when you're hanging out with your friends and their wives, or with your friends who have children.  "You know, Steve, Becky is no longer a little girl.  She's 12, meaning she's in her 13th year.  A menarche with iliac flaring with that... woo-eee, you know what I'm saying?  Gets me hot.  You can't hide a peach that ripe and I'm going picking, if you know what I mean.  You wouldn't mind if, you know, I brought her to my place?  Girls in Denmark reach Tanner Stage 3 at 12.3; breast maturation slightly precedes menses.  And I can tell you from experience, those Thai girls are still Tanner Stage 2 at 12.3.  But who is to say, really, if Tanner was right, knowhatImean?"

2) You go to great lengths reminding us of the legal definition of a pedophile (literally no one mentioned that word but you) and trying to obfuscate the conversation with phraseology no one except professionals in a certain field use ("we all know what the Tanner stages are"?  No, most people have never heard of that.  "physically precocious"?  "signaling her fertility through iliac flaring"?).  Unless you're a pediatrician, or a child psychologist, I find it hard to conceive of a non-creepy reason you are so into this topic as to use phrases like "signaling her fertility through iliac flaring."

3) You scorn people (it did not seem facetious) who ACTUALLY RAISE CHILDREN -- as it degrades our critical thinking skills on... whether adults should be allowed to access children for sex.  If you really were joking, I withdraw this point... but then you need to do a better job at joking cuz we all think you're serious.

4) Correct me if I'm wrong but NOTHING I have seen in your writings ever takes into account the welfare of the child.  It's always how to justify it from the adult male's perspective, who wants the sex with the child.

5) I'm 100% sure none of the authors of the papers you cite in the Lancet etc would approve of their work -- which is giving a clinical definition of adolescence -- being used to justify sex between adult males and 12 year olds, or even 16 year olds.

6) @MrStretch Yes, we're hanging our arguments on societal norms... which are entirely relevant and legitimate considerations in a discussion on whether or not children should have sex with adults.  You can't separate the two issues and anyone who tries, inevitably comes across as a pedophile.

7) Reynard, I truly don't mean to insult you with this, but your persistent arguing in favor of allowing sexual access to 12+ is not a good look (OK, you might not care).  I'll leave it at that.

 

Edited May 20 by ChicagoExpat

[LeReynard]

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Admit we're wrong?  About what?

About anything I backed up with cites?

Just about anything here, I already addressed.

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

 

 

2) You go to great lengths reminding us of the legal definition of a pedophile (literally no one mentioned that word but you) and trying to obfuscate the conversation with phraseology no one except professionals in a certain field use ("we all know what the Tanner stages are"?  No, most people have never heard of that.  "physically precocious"?  "signaling her fertility through iliac flaring"?).  Unless you're a pediatrician, or a child psychologist, I find it hard to conceive of a non-creepy reason you are so into this topic as to use phrases like "signaling her fertility through iliac flaring."

Tanner stages are taught to children throughout the world. If you don't think you remember what a Tanner Stage is, you should recall upon seeing the diagrams, that mark adolescent growth.

Given that the Tanner stages of the erotic target are relevant to wether the accused is a paedophile or not, and this report is about a crime with a 12 year old victim.

Yes, paedophilia matters.

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

3) You scorn people (it did not seem facetious) who ACTUALLY RAISE CHILDREN -- as it degrades our critical thinking skills on... whether adults should be allowed to access children for sex.  If you really were joking, I withdraw this point... but then you need to do a better job at joking cuz we all think you're serious.

I don't see any particular utility, in respect for the opinion of (which?) parents over other perspectives. For example, over the wishes of the young people, who are usually involved in such relationships. Not in this case, but in other violations of Age of Consent laws.

But generally: why would parenthood bestow a special authority, on matters of society, child development, and the like? Mosany cases of child sexual abuse are committed by parents. Am I to assume they, as parents, also knew better than anyone else?

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

4) Correct me if I'm wrong but NOTHING I have seen in your writings ever takes into account the welfare of the child.  It's always how to justify it from the adult male's perspective, who wants the sex with the child.

Because the accused is much older, and in a position of authority, I do not really empathise with him. But when I am considering situations, in which the older partners might be thought of as youthful, I do express concern that young lives are ruined, over non-intergenerational age gaps.

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

 

6) @MrStretch Yes, we're hanging our arguments on societal norms... which are entirely relevant and legitimate considerations in a discussion on whether or not children should have sex with adults.  You can't separate the two issues and anyone who tries, inevitably comes across as a pedophile.

It's not really a social norm, though. Only the fact people feel a need to whisper ordinary opinions about it.

For years, every joke book derided the arbitrariness of the age of consent, with a gag about waiting for the girl to turn 16. Even till today, female teenagers having sex with their students, is printed in papers as a matter of titillation.

Only since the year 2000, has hysteria about the subject drowned out normal discussion of such topics. Which require more nuance, than mere appeals to some overly simplistic legislation, rushed in during the 19th century, only to discourage pimping, and currently pushed by feminist-leaning NGOs.

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

7) Reynard, I truly don't mean to insult you with this, but your persistent arguing in favor of allowing sexual access to 12+ is not a good look (OK, you might not care).  I'll leave it at that.

I say nothing about this, most Darwinists would disagree with, whatever their political stripe happens to be. Very few people with scientific interests - and I'm not talking about a degree or anything - could disagree. This is just me giving facts, and simple logical inference.

[ramirez2k]

Whether it’s child abuse, manipulation within direct sales, or any other form of exploitation, preying on vulnerable individuals is reprehensible. Let’s work together to create a safer and more compassionate world for everyone. 

 

 

[Fanta]

9 hours ago, ramirez2k said:

Let’s work together to create a safer and more compassionate world for everyone. 

Except the pedos. We need to punish them, brutally and without compassion.