Vaccine hesitancy testing the patience of fully inoculated Americans

[mcambl61]

15 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Where's the "virtue signaling"?

If you don't think that society has a duty to protect its weaker members and that the common good is at least as important as individual rights then you need to take a long hard look at yourself and the sort of world you want to live in.

What "effective early treatment options"?

Some have been identified as having potential and needing further study, such as ivermectin, but none have yet been validated and shown to be effective.

None.

If that's wrong and you can show any verifiable, peer reviewed studies then I'll apologise, but please at least do me the courtesy of reading any links yourself, unlike the last lot of BS from @BS which not only didn't support his claim but contradicted it.

What "data"?

You've given a chart showing vaccination rates by ethnicity, then said that "it tells you something when a large percentage of health care workers in NYC have not been vaccinated" without showing any link between the two!

I looked it up, though, and around a third of all staff have not been vaccinated yet - without knowing the reasons why, it doesn't actually tell anybody anything.

You ask where the virtue signaling is, while you are doing even more of it. 

 

 

Here's some more data from the real world 

 

https://c19ivermectin.com/

 

And here is more info that you were too lazy to do yourself 

"About 60% of the more than 42,000 employees of New York City's public hospital system are vaccinated" 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-city-requires-health-workers-be-vaccinated-or-get-tested-weekly-2021-07-21/

 

Stop the irrational emotional outrage.

Stop pretending that there are not viable therapeutics being used by doctors worldwide for EARLY treatment of covid that reduce chances of serious health problems,not just ivermectin. 

 

Stop pretending that people already infected and recovered don't posses strong immunity. 

 

Stop pretending that if people's natural tcell immune system is strong, you have a 99.9% chance of not having any issues if infected. 

And more importantly, stop preaching and shaming people who don't want to be vaccinated for reasons you are not willing to accept. 

 

Deal with reality of the data, the actual fatality rates do not justify a complete destruction of the world's economy and tens of millions of people's lives and businesses. 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

You wrote: Why is that so hard to understand?  Because your comparison of getting an experimental jab with driving the wrong way on a one-way street is TOTAL BS. 

Feel free to explain why.

 

The choices are exactly the same - up to you.

The direct and indirect consequences are exactly the same, to the same degree.

How could any analogy be  any closer?

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

The fable of the unvaccinated asymptomatic spreader which lead to total panic (the invisible enemy) has been completely debunked, but is still living on.  

Really?

"completely debunked" by who?

Hopefully someone other than the person you cited before, who, if I recall correctly, you neglected to mention had said the next day that her comments had been taken out of context and that what was reported was incorrect!

 

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

only difference being that it are actually the VACCINATED that will be the main asymptomatic spreaders, because the vaccine suppresses their symptoms.

According to who?

 

Just give a credible, verifiable, peer reviewed link and I'll happily concede that you're correct.

 

It can't be that hard, surely?

[SnapDragon]

3 hours ago, Soidog said:

There’s a good spin there I think. It’s not to protect the vaccinated. It’s so the unvaccinated don’t keep getting sick and going in to hospital and spreading it around as much. All of this is holding the economies of the world back and causing more opportunity for further mutations. The world can’t move forward unless we limit the spread, hospitalisations and death of Covid. Vaccines limit all three.  Get your jab and let’s all get back to a normal life.  

Can't agree with you there Soidog.

What is ",,,,,,holding the economies of the world back,,,,," is the UN telling the countries of the world how to react. Got nothing to do with any virus.

There are massive interests at play here. I've my own views on 'why' but that for another thread.

As for ",,,hospitalisations and death of Covid,,," Where are these deaths?

"Get your jab and let’s all get back to a normal life." Once you can see the light, there is no jab.

[Stonker]

2 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

So my mere unvaccinated existence is a threat to you? 

A threat to me personally?

 

No, none at all.

 

A threat to the country? 

 

Yes, as it reduces the chances of reaching herd immunity, however slim they may be for the foreseeable future.

6 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

When going in public I mask up and social distance, not that I believe in that total nonsense but I don't want to stress those who believe that it will protect them.

In that case you're doing so for the wrong reasons.

Masking up isn't your choice - it's the law.

 

... and if you don't think it protects others, then you know even less about Covid-19 than I thought, and I didn't think that was likely.

 

11 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

But I draw the line at vaccination, because I am surely NOT going to take the jab because of somebody else's irrational fears or twisted beliefs.

Entirely up to you - at the moment.

[Soidog]

18 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

The world's leading 'independent' scientists and doctors do know better and more.

The data IS there for all to see. Most of it is being suppressed, blocked and even altered. But in spite of this it can be found.

I can't agree about vaccines working. IMO none work. and this current crop are just the same. Constantly being promoted for Big Pharma (and others) to make billions of dollars for ???

Are you saying none of the Covid vaccines work, or no vaccines for anything work? 

Regardless, don’t you think that nations who don’t have big pharma companies would be exposing this, if this was true? Why would the vast majority of nations that don’t have the ability to make vaccines be prepared to pay for them if they didn’t work? I hope we are not heading down the global conspiracy rabbit hole here with this conversation? 

[SnapDragon]

13 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

So my mere unvaccinated existence is a threat to you? 

When going in public I mask up and social distance, not that I believe in that total nonsense but I don't want to stress those who believe that it will protect them.  But I draw the line at vaccination, because I am surely NOT going to take the jab because of somebody else's irrational fears or twisted beliefs.

"So my mere unvaccinated existence is a threat to you?" Of course not.

But the other way round? Evidence is growing about 'shedding'. Especially women of child-bearing age. In the future the vaxxed will not be able to give blood. The unvaxxed will. We - the unvaxxed - will be in great demand as blood doners, sperm doners etc.

",,,,I draw the line at vaccination, because I am surely NOT going to take the jab because of somebody else's irrational fears or twisted beliefs." IMO, it is far more than somebody's irrational fears or twisted beliefs. Who and why, want(s) the whole world vaxxed, for a 'disease' that was officially classified as 'flu' status in the UK. Just have to ask what it all about.

[sputnik]

4 hours ago, stevenkongju said:

Diseases are eradicated not because vaccines are 100% effective. They are eradicated because, if enough people use the vaccines, there are not enough places for the virus to go. A virus basically dies out because it can't reproduce.  Was that your point?

exactly this mechanism does not work with these covid virus and the vaccines on offer...people will be exactly in the same numbers infected as without vaccine...the difference is they mostly experience  mild or no symptoms and can avoid ICU and death....

mild or no symptoms does not mean that they cannot pass on the virus to someone else...they always do and if this someone else is not vaccinated it can end lethal for him..

thats why the virus is mutating...also thats why u should wear a mask and keep distance because this is the only effective way to cut the virus spreading causing him to dry out...NOT these available vaccines..

so there will be no back to normal even if a 100 percent would be vaccinated...

there will be death from vaccines because many cant handle it...blood cloaks in brain heart attack etc...all the vaccine sideffects know to day...regardless from which company...

 

[SnapDragon]

18 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Masking up isn't your choice - it's the law.

... and if you don't think it protects others, then you know even less about Covid-19 than I thought, and I didn't think that was likely.

In some places and some circumstances it may well be the law. But to say wearing a mask protects anyone is ridiculous. There are dozens of studies that show wearing a mask does far more harm than good.

[Stonker]

13 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

You ask where the virtue signaling is, while you are doing even more of it. 

Well, that's your opinion and unlike your facts you're entitled to it.

 

14 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Here's some more data from the real world 

https://c19ivermectin.com/

Sorry, we've had that one before - there's nothing really to add, unless you've read it a lot more closely than the last time it was given and you can point to any of the studies that support your claim.

21 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

And here is more info that you were too lazy to do yourself ...

Actually I did do it myself, which was why I wrote "I looked it up, though ...".  Maybe you missed that?

24 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Stop the irrational emotional outrage.

Well, if you think being appalled by your selfish, self-centred, f*ck you I'm all right Jack outlook is "irrational emotional outrage" then that's entirely up to you.

28 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Stop pretending that there are not viable therapeutics being used by doctors worldwide for EARLY treatment of covid that reduce chances of serious health problems,not just ivermectin. 

Well, feel free to detail and link to any verifiable studies ... 

 

If there are any and you can give them then,  as I said, I'll apologize ... if not, well ....

 

33 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Stop pretending that people already infected and recovered don't posses strong immunity. 

I've no idea where you've dreamt that up from, since I've said the complete opposite in this thread when explaining how herd immunity was reached.

 

The polar opposite to what you say I'm pretending ... but never mind.

39 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Stop pretending that if people's natural tcell immune system is strong, you have a 99.9% chance of not having any issues if infected. 

I've never said anything about that at all, here or anywhere else!

 

Your imagination, like many of your ilk, seems to have got the better of you.

46 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

And more importantly, stop preaching and shaming people who don't want to be vaccinated for reasons you are not willing to accept. 

I don't need to "shame" anyone like you.  You do that all by yourselves.

[Stonker]

52 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Deal with reality of the data, the actual fatality rates do not justify a complete destruction of the world's economy and tens of millions of people's lives and businesses. 

Sorry, missed that one.

 

Doesn't it strike you that if steps hadn't been taken as they have that the "actual fatality rates" would have been far higher?

 

That if, to use yet another analogy, you'd kept a rabid dog in a cage after it had bitten one person, it may not be very wise to say that it's not necessary since it's only bitten one person?

 

Probably not ...

[Stonker]

24 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

In some places and some circumstances it may well be the law. But to say wearing a mask protects anyone is ridiculous. There are dozens of studies that show wearing a mask does far more harm than good.

Sorry @snapdragon, nothing personal, but there are limits to even my interest in replying to some people.

[SnapDragon]

36 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Are you saying none of the Covid vaccines work, or no vaccines for anything work? 

Regardless, don’t you think that nations who don’t have big pharma companies would be exposing this, if this was true? Why would the vast majority of nations that don’t have the ability to make vaccines be prepared to pay for them if they didn’t work? I hope we are not heading down the global conspiracy rabbit hole here with this conversation? 

I have stated my position clearly some time ago in another TT thread:

https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/1660-what-makes-you-ill/?tab=comments#comment-8556

But I don't mind answering your question:

"Are you saying none of the Covid vaccines work, or no vaccines for anything work? "

Second part first. I've never seen evidence to support the case for vaccines; any of them.

First part second. IMO no C-19 therapy (don't like to call them vaccines as they are simply not) works. And if the details of the the vaxxes are read, I don't think the manufacturers of the vaxxes do either.

[SnapDragon]

1 minute ago, Stonker said:

Sorry @snapdragon, nothing personal, but there are limits to even my interest in replying to some people.

Don't have to reply; just do some research.

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

Good for you, and I will not stop you doing so.  But don't coerce me into doing same. 

Wouldnt dream of it. Never entered my head. By the way, I know you wouldnt stop me. Trust me. 

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, snapdragon said:

As for ",,,hospitalisations and death of Covid,,," Where are these deaths?

There are over 4 million around the world that have died from Covid, with that number likely to be far higher in reality. Which of those 4 million would you like me to list when you ask where are they? 

[Soidog]

47 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

"Are you saying none of the Covid vaccines work, or no vaccines for anything work? "

Second part first. I've never seen evidence to support the case for vaccines; any of them.

So vaccination against Diphtheria, measles and whooping  cough and the dramatic fall in cases and deaths since vaccination is insufficient evidence they work in your opinion. How then do you explain the following?..  

Edited July 30, 2021 by Soidog
Typo

[JamesE]

10 hours ago, Jeffpky said:

In my opinion it seems warranted that people should be hesitant to get the vaccines given the limited time since they have been in development. 

The base technology was first demonstrated in 1989. Early clinical trials began in 2002. The carrier technology using lipid casings for the RNA particles in was successfully demonstrated in 2005. Moderna was formed in 2010 to commercialize the tech. Contrast this with the polio vaccine which was developed in 1952 with distribution beginning in 1954.

10 hours ago, Jeffpky said:

Furthermore, over the past year and a half the definition of so-called heard immunity has been changed multiple times.

Herd immunity (H) is defined as (1 - 1/R0) where R0 is the dreaded R-naught the transmissibility factor. This has been the definition since the epidemiologists came up with the idea. The first globally prevalent strain of COVID that showed up in Europe in the spring of 2020 had an R0 of 3: each infected person would go on to infect 3 others. so H = (1 - 1/3) or 67%. The Alpha variant was roughly 50% more transmissible so R0 jumped to 4.5 and herd immunity rose to 78%. Alpha took over the world. Now Delta is running amok and is at least twice as transmissible as Alpha, R0 = 9 at the low end. (If you consider other factors it appears it could be as high as 60 which is a number that is borderline unbelievable.) Using R0 = 9 herd immunity is now at a minimum 88%.

But, as your comment illustrates, many people don't look under the hood to see why the numbers change. Governments realize this and so never updated the targets for vaccination. Doing so would have put off even more people from getting vaccinated because, messaging. The goal has always been to minimize the rate of spread so as not to overwhelm the hospital systems. Individual sicknesses and deaths don't factor into that calculus, only saving people who wouldn't have died from the COVID (or anything else requiring hospitalization) from dying because they couldn't access a hospital.

[SnapDragon]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

There are over 4 million around the world that have died from Covid, with that number likely to be far higher in reality. Which of those 4 million would you like me to list when you ask where are they? 

I simply do not agree with those figures.

Go ahead and list them. The UK figures for deaths show no increase against the last 20 years average. In the US hospitals have a financial incentive to list the deaths as C-19 ones.

 

[SnapDragon]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

So vaccination against Diphtheria, measles and whooping  cough and the dramatic fall in cases and deaths since vaccination is insufficient evidence they work in your opinion. How then do you explain the following?.

I do not agree with the data.

I'm not a subscriber to the 'germ theory'. Which you have to believe in to justify vaccinations.

"How then do you explain the following?" Name a disease that you think has been even helped by a vaccine, let alone eradicated, and I'll willingly debate with you.

[Soidog]

23 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

I do not agree with the data.

I'm not a subscriber to the 'germ theory'. Which you have to believe in to justify vaccinations.

"How then do you explain the following?" Name a disease that you think has been even helped by a vaccine, let alone eradicated, and I'll willingly debate with you.

Well the three I listed before and smallpox was eradicated. 
I really don’t wish to get in to details of the data. All I know is prior to vaccines, thousands died from Smallpox each year and now they don’t. If it’s not vaccines that has reduced measles and eradicated Smallpox, then what is it? Or are you saying these diseases never existed or in the numbers published? 

[Soidog]

35 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

I simply do not agree with those figures.

Go ahead and list them. The UK figures for deaths show no increase against the last 20 years average. In the US hospitals have a financial incentive to list the deaths as C-19 ones.

It’s difficult to debate this if you simply say you don’t agree with published data by renowned sources. I have however shown below the excess deaths for the U.K. and the US over the last year. This alone shows the above normal deaths which result from Covid 19. I find it utterly baffling how you can say Covid is not causing 4,000,000 people to die prematurely. Why else would every government in the world be taking this so seriously if it wasn’t anything to worry about?  

[Eric_B]

• In July 2021, following multiple large public events in a Barnstable County, Massachusetts, town, 469 COVID-19 cases were identified among Massachusetts residents who had traveled to the town during July 3–17; 346 (74%) occurred in fully vaccinated persons.
• vaccination coverage among eligible Massachusetts residents was 69%
• Overall, 274 (79%) vaccinated patients with breakthrough infection were symptomatic
• Among five COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized, four were fully vaccinated

Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w

 

Any thoughts on this?

To me it seems like the vaccines are doing a great job in this case.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Eric_B
Url missing

[JamesE]

2 hours ago, Eric_B said:

Any thoughts on this?

To me it seems like the vaccines are doing a great job in this case.

Yeah, this is what starts the middle segment of the middle phase. The mass vaccine rollout back in January started the first segment of the middle phase. Those vaccines were all designed and tested against the original strain of the virus and the first (unnamed) variant. They also proved themselves effective against the Alpha strain (AKA: The British Variant, AKA: B.1.1.7). Delta is turning out to be a whole different beast. The vaccines test effectively against it in the lab but real world experience seems to pointing in a different direction. Witness: this report and the numbers being reported by Israel. But you have to remember, the vaccines weren't designed for general protection against SARS-CoV-2, the were designed to specifically target the original spike protein and its presentation.

What's truly amazing is the severity of the breakthrough infections. There's no longer 94% overall protection, Or 65%. It's now down in the 20% range against Delta.

So now the question becomes how fast can Pfizer, et al. roll Delta into a booster and a new first shot vaccine? There are a lot of people who won't be sleeping well trying to figure that out.

 

[AussieBob]

As things go forward, it is very clear that attendance to and usage of certain things will be restricted to those with full vaccination.  I do understand that this is an imposition against people's freedoms etc., but I agree with that approach.  So the freedom of choice will remain, but not the freedom of the herd:  Do I wish to travel to Thailand? Then I will have to get vaccinated. No vaccination = no airline ticket.

The science is clear. Herd Immunity is the only way to slow/stop a virus. The Covid virus is very bad and millions have died. The decision has been made to slow/stop Covid - as it was in the past with Polio etc.  The decision was made to not try and slow/stop Influenza - because it is not that bad.  Herd Immunity is only achievable through 'natural selection' and through vaccinations.  The decision has been made to use vaccinations - but not mandatory - only voluntary.  If some people choose not to vaccinate, then they will be prevented from being in close proximity to other vaccinated people - that decision is currently being made. I agree with that decision if/when it is made. I do not want to spend 9+ hours on a plane with someone that is not vaccinated - and that is my choice - and I believe that is the choice of the majority.   I do not want to spend 2+ hours in a cinema with someone that is not vaccinated - and that is my choice - and I believe that is the choice of the majority. On so on and so forth.  This is coming and is going to happen.  Just as I cannot take nail clippers onto a plane anymore, if you are unvaccinated then you will not be allowed as well.  

Herd Immunity is the only solution and if some people refuse to achieve that through vaccinations, then they will not be allowed to be with the herd - they have that freedom of choice. They do not have the right to decide to be with the herd, while refusing to abide by the rules of the herd.  And if there is enough of them, then airlines and hotels etc etc will offer 'vaccine free' only services.  But dont hold your breath anti-vaxers - you are the minority and the majority decides - not the minority. Dont like it - then leave the herd.

And until they vaccinate children - or ban children on international flights or from attending events - I will not be flying or attending events where they are allowed to be unvaccinated.  There is a lot of stupidity in allowing children anywhere - what science says children cannot catch Covid and infect others.

 

[mcambl61]

8 hours ago, Stonker said:

Well, that's your opinion and unlike your facts you're entitled to it.

Sorry, we've had that one before - there's nothing really to add, unless you've read it a lot more closely than the last time it was given and you can point to any of the studies that support your claim.

Actually I did do it myself, which was why I wrote "I looked it up, though ...".  Maybe you missed that?

Well, if you think being appalled by your selfish, self-centred, f*ck you I'm all right Jack outlook is "irrational emotional outrage" then that's entirely up to you.

Well, feel free to detail and link to any verifiable studies ... 

If there are any and you can give them then,  as I said, I'll apologize ... if not, well ....

I've no idea where you've dreamt that up from, since I've said the complete opposite in this thread when explaining how herd immunity was reached.

The polar opposite to what you say I'm pretending ... but never mind.

I've never said anything about that at all, here or anywhere else!

Your imagination, like many of your ilk, seems to have got the better of you.

I don't need to "shame" anyone like you.  You do that all by yourselves.

Again, more self righteous virtue signaling blather. 

 

"my ilk" 

Well there it is again. Yet another arrogant display that people who disagree with your opinions are just so ignorant. 

 

Your irrational fear mongering and arrogant virtue signaling is astounding, but consistent. 

 

The ridiculous government draconian reaction to this virus exponentially worse than the virus. That is undeniable.... Unless you are delusional. 

 

You disagree, obviously, because there is no "peer" reviewed data while thousands of doctors are using off label cheap medicines to help patients avoid the serious effects of infection.

 

The destruction of the world's economy and the hundreds of millions of people jobs is not acceptable or justified. 

 

Either you have enough common sense to realize these things or you don't. But then, common sense has not been peer reviewed, so obviously it can't be true.