News Forum - Chaiyaphum province mobilises aid for Thai labourers in Israel amid escalating conflict

[Thaiger]

As the conflict in Israel escalates, Thai labourers in the region are facing increased worries about their safety. Despite this, many are determined to remain and continue working. The most recent violence between Israel and the alleged Palestinian terrorist organisation Hamas has resulted in several thousand rockets being fired into Israel, leading to numerous fatalities. … …

The story Chaiyaphum province mobilises aid for Thai labourers in Israel amid escalating conflict as seen on Thaiger News.

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[1234567]

It is unfortunate, how these Thai workers obviously have no idea how their masters treat Palestinians.

Most of the westerners even do not know, and blindly believe the Zionist/Jewish paid mainstream media; how the "Palestininas are the terrorists, and Israelis are the victim".
It is mindboggling how GULLIBLE the people are and do not know anything; that Israel has breached more UN resolutions than the whole world combined, is keeping 2 200 000 people in Holocaust concentration camp and regularly shoots them like fish in a bowl, keep vast Apartheid system, has attacked every single neighbour of it,  keep secret nuclear arm prgogram and refuse to sign agreements; while they moan Iran for doing it (Iran has never attacked any country...), regularly shoot and burn children, etc. etc.

So it is no wonder Thais do not know these facts about the terrorist state!
 

[Pinetree]

3 hours ago, 1234567 said:

It is unfortunate, how these Thai workers obviously have no idea how their masters treat Palestinians.

Most of the westerners even do not know, and blindly believe the Zionist/Jewish paid mainstream media; how the "Palestininas are the terrorists, and Israelis are the victim".
It is mindboggling how GULLIBLE the people are and do not know anything; that Israel has breached more UN resolutions than the whole world combined, is keeping 2 200 000 people in Holocaust concentration camp and regularly shoots them like fish in a bowl, keep vast Apartheid system, has attacked every single neighbour of it,  keep secret nuclear arm prgogram and refuse to sign agreements; while they moan Iran for doing it (Iran has never attacked any country...), regularly shoot and burn children, etc. etc.

So it is no wonder Thais do not know these facts about the terrorist state!
 

No mate, it's amazing how gullible you and so many others of your ilk are.  Read Vigo's excellent  summation of the history of this region on another post to really begin to understand this highly complex situation.  You spouting surface nonsense is what a lot see and read but their ignorance is holding back any real understanding. 

 

Here, for your education, is Vigos excellent post:: 

 

And away you go with the distortion of the history and facts. The hypocrisy is laughable. You have attached maps post 1917 with the incorrect name Palestine in the first two.  For someone always bemoaning the evils of western colonialism it is astounding that you so readily accept maps based upon recent western colonial occupation.  colonial empire maps. Here are some facts that you cannot deny; From the early 1500's to WWI, the area you show in the maps was part of the Ottoman Empire. There was no Jordan, no KSA, no Syria as it is today and no Palestine. The Ottoman Empire used sheikhdoms and provinces. The region you show in the maps was divided into four districts, attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. Unlike the Europeans, the Turks were  civilized and welcoming to the Jewish people. There were local jewish communities comprised of descendants of Jews who had never left the region as well as immigrants from North Africa and Europe. During the Ottoman rule, there was a Jewish majority population in Jerusalem. The Jewish population grew under the Ottomans and assimilated into the fabric of the Empire. The Ottoman Empire recognized much of the  region in the maps as Jewish lands, although subject to Ottoman rule. Under the ottoman rule there was no Palestine. There was a region of filistine (or Philistine) and it was a small area towards  what is now Gaza.

Fast forward to WWI where the  French and British  sought to undermine Germany's ally Turkey with promises of nationhood to various arab factions. One of the most important were the Hashemites. In return for participating in the 1916 Arab revolt, Great Britain promised the Arabs one united nation,  a Greater Syria. Behind the Arabs backs, the  British and French then  created their famous Sykes Picot  agreement that split up the former Ottoman territory along borders determined by European occupiers and bestowed upon the new territories. Hashemites were given a new Kingdom called Transjordan. they had their new  Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. However, the French carved Lebanon out of what we call Syria today and kept the remains of Syria as an autonomous French colony. The British kept the rest of the Arab  territories as colonies, and it was the British who brought back the name of Palestine.  The europeans also betrayed the Arab Kurds by denying them the return of their homeland.

Slice and dice the  borders anyway you want, the reality is that they changed through war. Wars where Arab nations bombarded Israel from  highlands like the Golan Heights) or attacked Israel repeatedly and lost land in the ensuing  hostilities. The reality is that much of  Jerusalem called occupied by the Arabs was initially part of modern Israel but lost following the war of 1948. Israel regained the territory in 1967.

The point of all of the above is that the modern  borders reflect european colonial occupation and are not necessarily reflective of the historical borders or regions as occupied under Ottoman rule. For example, Gaza was only remotely  settled pre 1948 and at that time had a sizeable jewish population. The jews were driven out by the arrival of arabs from modern day Israel who were following the  instructions of their arab leaders. They were told to leave to facilitate the destruction of Israel. They obviously erred.

If you disapprove of modern israel borders, then surely you cannot accept the existence of Lebanon as an independent nation, nor Jordan. They should all be part of  greater Syria. KSA, Yemen, modern Iraq should not exist either since their borders were a creation of the British.

And despite all this border talk and  the lies of occupation of Gaza, the fact remains that the Hamas terrorists executed children, the elderly and hundreds of unarmed non combatants. They have taken civilians hostages.   This is a war supported by by iran and most likely Russia.

 

[Manu]

56 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

No mate, it's amazing how gullible you and so many others of your ilk are.  Read Vigo's excellent  summation of the history of this region on another post to really begin to understand this highly complex situation.  You spouting surface nonsense is what a lot see and read but their ignorance is holding back any real understanding. 

Here, for your education, is Vigos excellent post:: 

And away you go with the distortion of the history and facts. The hypocrisy is laughable. You have attached maps post 1917 with the incorrect name Palestine in the first two.  For someone always bemoaning the evils of western colonialism it is astounding that you so readily accept maps based upon recent western colonial occupation.  colonial empire maps. Here are some facts that you cannot deny; From the early 1500's to WWI, the area you show in the maps was part of the Ottoman Empire. There was no Jordan, no KSA, no Syria as it is today and no Palestine. The Ottoman Empire used sheikhdoms and provinces. The region you show in the maps was divided into four districts, attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. Unlike the Europeans, the Turks were  civilized and welcoming to the Jewish people. There were local jewish communities comprised of descendants of Jews who had never left the region as well as immigrants from North Africa and Europe. During the Ottoman rule, there was a Jewish majority population in Jerusalem. The Jewish population grew under the Ottomans and assimilated into the fabric of the Empire. The Ottoman Empire recognized much of the  region in the maps as Jewish lands, although subject to Ottoman rule. Under the ottoman rule there was no Palestine. There was a region of filistine (or Philistine) and it was a small area towards  what is now Gaza.

Fast forward to WWI where the  French and British  sought to undermine Germany's ally Turkey with promises of nationhood to various arab factions. One of the most important were the Hashemites. In return for participating in the 1916 Arab revolt, Great Britain promised the Arabs one united nation,  a Greater Syria. Behind the Arabs backs, the  British and French then  created their famous Sykes Picot  agreement that split up the former Ottoman territory along borders determined by European occupiers and bestowed upon the new territories. Hashemites were given a new Kingdom called Transjordan. they had their new  Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. However, the French carved Lebanon out of what we call Syria today and kept the remains of Syria as an autonomous French colony. The British kept the rest of the Arab  territories as colonies, and it was the British who brought back the name of Palestine.  The europeans also betrayed the Arab Kurds by denying them the return of their homeland.

Slice and dice the  borders anyway you want, the reality is that they changed through war. Wars where Arab nations bombarded Israel from  highlands like the Golan Heights) or attacked Israel repeatedly and lost land in the ensuing  hostilities. The reality is that much of  Jerusalem called occupied by the Arabs was initially part of modern Israel but lost following the war of 1948. Israel regained the territory in 1967.

The point of all of the above is that the modern  borders reflect european colonial occupation and are not necessarily reflective of the historical borders or regions as occupied under Ottoman rule. For example, Gaza was only remotely  settled pre 1948 and at that time had a sizeable jewish population. The jews were driven out by the arrival of arabs from modern day Israel who were following the  instructions of their arab leaders. They were told to leave to facilitate the destruction of Israel. They obviously erred.

If you disapprove of modern israel borders, then surely you cannot accept the existence of Lebanon as an independent nation, nor Jordan. They should all be part of  greater Syria. KSA, Yemen, modern Iraq should not exist either since their borders were a creation of the British.

And despite all this border talk and  the lies of occupation of Gaza, the fact remains that the Hamas terrorists executed children, the elderly and hundreds of unarmed non combatants. They have taken civilians hostages.   This is a war supported by by iran and most likely Russia.

Personally, I prefer to hear what people in Israel have to say, like, for example, my friends, or an ex Israeli general, or a former head of the Mossad (acccording to him, borders in Israel do not even exist as they keep being extended so how can anyone even "disaprove modern Israel borders" as Vigo seems to know so much about?) or The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, to understand what is happening today, rather than commentators on online forums giving their interpretation of history whom for the vast majority, I suspect, have never even been to Israel, never mind in Palestine.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-06/ty-article/there-is-an-apartheid-state-here-ex-mossad-chief-on-israels-west-bank-occupation/0000018a-6abe-dfd9-ad9f-efbe5c720000

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-13/ty-article/ex-israeli-general-says-army-partaking-in-west-bank-war-crimes-invokes-nazi-germany/00000189-ee00-d9cf-a7eb-ff2b12bf0000

https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem

[TedG]

5 hours ago, 1234567 said:

It is unfortunate, how these Thai workers obviously have no idea how their masters treat Palestinians.

Most of the westerners even do not know, and blindly believe the Zionist/Jewish paid mainstream media; how the "Palestininas are the terrorists, and Israelis are the victim".
It is mindboggling how GULLIBLE the people are and do not know anything; that Israel has breached more UN resolutions than the whole world combined, is keeping 2 200 000 people in Holocaust concentration camp and regularly shoots them like fish in a bowl, keep vast Apartheid system, has attacked every single neighbour of it,  keep secret nuclear arm prgogram and refuse to sign agreements; while they moan Iran for doing it (Iran has never attacked any country...), regularly shoot and burn children, etc. etc.

So it is no wonder Thais do not know these facts about the terrorist state!
 

This is BS.  

Israel left Gaza in 2006. If the Palestinians want peace, they stop attacking Israel.  There is no excuse for the actions of Hamas. 

[TheDirtyDurian]

https://www-aljazeera-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/18/mapping-israeli-occupation-gaza-palestine?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=16969993822682&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2021%2F5%2F18%2Fmapping-israeli-occupation-gaza-palestine

Some excellent maps in this article.

Gives a good background.

[TheDirtyDurian]

22 minutes ago, TedG said:

This is BS.  

Israel left Gaza in 2006. If the Palestinians want peace, they stop attacking Israel.  There is no excuse for the actions of Hamas. 

See the UN figures in the chart above

[Manu]

9 minutes ago, TedG said:

This is BS.  

Israel left Gaza in 2006. If the Palestinians want peace, they stop attacking Israel.  There is no excuse for the actions of Hamas. 

Hamas is not the people of Gaza, Palestine is not just Gaza, there is no excuse neither for what Israel is doing in the West Bank, especially this current racist government, and that's not me saying that but a huge number of people in Israel (see links in above comment). Hamas is a terror jihadist group that is by far not supported by the majority of people of Gaza for whom life is just about surviving with nowhere else to go. And when they dare protesting, they (obviously) get repressed brutally by Hamas as to be expected from these animals like in July this year (https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672#lnl9sczot5eh6bl5mm). Unfortunately, it seems that extremists are the ones on both sides who are always in the power of deciding of the faith of their people on both sides. Yes, "if the Palestinians want peace they stop attacking Israel". But if Israel wants peace, they should also stop doing what they are doing in the West Bank (again see links in comment above), as Palestinian National Security Forces (West Bank) never attack them although they would have 1 or 2 reasons for it.

[Vigo]

16 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

https://www-aljazeera-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/18/mapping-israeli-occupation-gaza-palestine?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=16969993822682&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2021%2F5%2F18%2Fmapping-israeli-occupation-gaza-palestine

Some excellent maps in this article.

Gives a good background.

It just shows that the Arabs have not had a very good success rate because the  Israelis have been vigilant.

During the Battle of Britain, the RCAF had to kill 4 Germans for every  pilot that they lost, just to survive. The RCAF delivered at close to 5.  The creation of the  west bank border wall stopped the wave of bombings that afflicted Israel. The restriction of entry of Gazans into Israel also reduced the number of  terror attacks.

[Vigo]

7 minutes ago, Manu said:

Hamas is not the people of Gaza, Palestine is not just Gaza, there is no excuse neither for what Israel is doing in the West Bank, especially this current racist government, and that's not me saying that but a huge number of people in Israel (see links in above comment). Hamas is a terror jihadist group that is by far not supported by the majority of people of Gaza for whom life is just about surviving with nowhere else to go. And when they dare protesting, they (obviously) get repressed brutally by Hamas as to be expected from these animals like in July this year (https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672#lnl9sczot5eh6bl5mm). Unfortunately, it seems that extremists are the ones on both sides who are always in the power of deciding of the faith of their people on both sides. Yes, "if the Palestinians want peace they stop attacking Israel". But if Israel wants peace, they should also stop doing what they are doing in the West Bank (again see links in comment above), as Palestinian National Security Forces (West Bank) never attack them although they would have 1 or 2 reasons for it.

Hamas is Gaza. It has been in power for a decade+ and rules with an iron fist . the people have been indoctrinated with Hamas  propaganda  and the children brainwashed to hate Israel .  Hamas is not just a terror group. It is the entity through which the UN distributes food and medical care. If Hamas says you do not qualify, you do not eat and do not have access to medical care.  It is Hamas which control the housing. If you want an apartment, it must be approved by Hamas.  Yo complain about Israel and its seizing of property, yet you ignore the fact that all land  and all private property now belongs to the state and Hamas decides if a hiospital shall be used as an ammo  dump or a missile launching site. Hamas decides if a home shall become a missile workshop or if a school shall be used as a military base.

Your polemic of blaming Israel ignores the reality of the event. The dance party attendees who were slaughtered, were no threat to any Arab. they were the demographic of the people most likely to  do whatever needed to be done to facilitate peace. The well known peace activist who was murdered, thought he was safe because he was a "friend of the arabs". He assumed incorrectly. The 90 year old woman who was shot point blank will no longer be a threat to Gazans, nor will the babies  sliced and diced on camera.

[TheDirtyDurian]

9 minutes ago, Vigo said:

It just shows that the Arabs have not had a very good success rate because the  Israelis have been vigilant.

During the Battle of Britain, the RCAF had to kill 4 Germans for every  pilot that they lost, just to survive. The RCAF delivered at close to 5.  The creation of the  west bank border wall stopped the wave of bombings that afflicted Israel. The restriction of entry of Gazans into Israel also reduced the number of  terror attacks.

So vigilant a third of Palestinian casualties are women and children...555

 

[Vigo]

13 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

So vigilant a third of Palestinian casualties are women and children...555

The terrorists  use women and children as agents of terror.

https://www.chausa.org/docs/default-source/health-progress/why-terrorists-use-female-and-child-suicide-bombers.pdf?sfvrsn=2

 

 

Brides of Palestine/Angels of Death: Media, Gender, and Performance in the Case of the Palestinian Female Suicide Bombers      Vol. 32, No. 4, War and Terror I: Raced‐Gendered Logics and Effects in Conflict ZonesSpecial Issue EditorsMary Hawkesworth and Karen Alexander (Summer 2007), pp. 933-955 (23 pages)

Published By: The University of Chicago Press

Nothing new - it has been a strategy for decades

https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/11/01/occupied-territories-stop-use-children-suicide-bombings

In Afghanistan, children and women were the favoured bomb carriers because of the western soldiers hesitancy to  kill kids and women. Those few seconds were often the difference between a deadly  explosive event and one that just left splattered taliban and a sandal.

Ask the  Iraqi war veterans how many times they had to deal with the women suicide bomber events. That's what happens when you are a young  orphan or a widow. Die or be  be killed. All hail the jihadi appreciation of life.

 

[TheDirtyDurian]

3 minutes ago, Vigo said:

The terrorists  use women and children as agents of terror.

https://www.chausa.org/docs/default-source/health-progress/why-terrorists-use-female-and-child-suicide-bombers.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Brides of Palestine/Angels of Death: Media, Gender, and Performance in the Case of the Palestinian Female Suicide Bombers      Vol. 32, No. 4, War and Terror I: Raced‐Gendered Logics and Effects in Conflict ZonesSpecial Issue EditorsMary Hawkesworth and Karen Alexander (Summer 2007), pp. 933-955 (23 pages)

Published By: The University of Chicago Press

All of them? 555

[Vigo]

45 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

All of them? 555

What do you think will happen when you throw potentially lethal rocks or toss molotov cocktails at people as the young males do? Do stupid dangerous acts and pay the price. It is to be expected that the targets of the rocks and firebombs will defend themselves.

[TheDirtyDurian]

1 minute ago, Vigo said:

What do you think will happen when you throw potentially lethal  rocks at vehicles or toss molotov cocktails at border police as the young males are prone to do? Do stupid dangerous acts and pay the price.

Indeed 

Those nasty rocks must be stopped.

[Vigo]

25 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

Indeed 

Those nasty rocks must be stopped.

You make light of the incidents, but many people have died from their injuries. it is why they are treated as lethal weapons.  Please ask someone to throw a rock at your head and let me know if there is any ill effect ok?

 At least 14 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian stone throwing, including three Arabs mistaken for Jews.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_stone-throwing

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/world/middleeast/israeli-girl-injured-in-palestinian-rock-throwing-attack-in-2013-dies.html

 

IDF soldier killed by rock thrown at his head during West Bank arrest raid. Sgt. First Class Amit Ben-Ygal, 21, was wearing helmet when large stone struck him, as unit made its way out of village near Jenin;

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/israel-palestinians-violence-idUSL8N2CU2FR

[TheDirtyDurian]

10 minutes ago, Vigo said:

You make light of the incidents, but many people have died from their injuries. it is why they are treated as lethal weapons.  Please ask someone to throw a rock at your head and let me know if there is any ill effect ok?

 At least 14 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian stone throwing, including three Arabs mistaken for Jews.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_stone-throwing

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/world/middleeast/israeli-girl-injured-in-palestinian-rock-throwing-attack-in-2013-dies.html

IDF soldier killed by rock thrown at his head during West Bank arrest raid. Sgt. First Class Amit Ben-Ygal, 21, was wearing helmet when large stone struck him, as unit made its way out of village near Jenin;

https://www.reuters.com/article/israel-palestinians-violence-idUSL8N2CU2FR

And 23 Palestinians were killed for every one of those Israeli deaths. Seven of whom were women and children.

Seems a wee bit disproportionate.

[Vigo]

30 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

And 23 Palestinians were killed for every one of those Israeli deaths. Seven of whom were women and children.

Seems a wee bit disproportionate.

Come back with context. What were they doing at the time of their death. Please take the past 100 deaths of the martyrs you support, and identify what they were doing.  You have no idea do you? You don't want to know the circumstances. In many cases they  deceased are indeed  relatively innocent, but die as a result of cross fire or their own people's misdirected bullets and rockets.

 

[TheDirtyDurian]

4 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Come back with context. What were they doing at the time of their death. Please take the past 100 deaths of the martyrs you support, and identify what they were doing.  You have no idea do you? You don't want to know the circumstances. In many cases they  deceased are indeed  relatively innocent, but die as a result of cross fire or their own people's misdirected bullets and rockets.

All of which is total conjecture...

[Manu]

2 hours ago, Vigo said:

Hamas is Gaza. It has been in power for a decade+ and rules with an iron fist . the people have been indoctrinated with Hamas  propaganda  and the children brainwashed to hate Israel .  Hamas is not just a terror group. It is the entity through which the UN distributes food and medical care. If Hamas says you do not qualify, you do not eat and do not have access to medical care.  It is Hamas which control the housing. If you want an apartment, it must be approved by Hamas.  Yo complain about Israel and its seizing of property, yet you ignore the fact that all land  and all private property now belongs to the state and Hamas decides if a hiospital shall be used as an ammo  dump or a missile launching site. Hamas decides if a home shall become a missile workshop or if a school shall be used as a military base.

Your polemic of blaming Israel ignores the reality of the event. The dance party attendees who were slaughtered, were no threat to any Arab. they were the demographic of the people most likely to  do whatever needed to be done to facilitate peace. The well known peace activist who was murdered, thought he was safe because he was a "friend of the arabs". He assumed incorrectly. The 90 year old woman who was shot point blank will no longer be a threat to Gazans, nor will the babies  sliced and diced on camera.

As usual, you write (type) faster than you think so you did not understand a word I said.

I said 2 different things in my comments, one about hamas and and the people of Gaza, one about the West Bank and the actions of Israel there. You mixed the 2 things and then come up with an answer unrelated to my comment.

Your first paragraph:  When I say Gaza is not Hamas, I say that a huge amount of the 2.3 million of people in Gaza are not behind Hamas but literally their hostages (but ironically even those who support them), I even provided a link to an article (which you obviously do not mention) that shows what happens when they are protesting against Hamas and burning their flag IN GAZA cause apart from all the things you said in your comment about Hamas, which are true (I did not "ignore that fact" that Hamas has control on all properties etc.. in Gaza, it is simply unrelated to what I wanted to say, which is a broader one than yours really: they simply have the control of the people) cause Hamas is a dictatorship ruling with an iron fist. I was actually responding to someone (yes please, when you reply to a comment, take note that I am already answering someone otherwise it makes no sense) mentioning "the people of Gaza" as if this inhuman bloodshed that happened in Israel was created by the people of Gaza. It is not, it is Hamas, a terror group imposing an harsh dictatorship on its own people which aim, as all jihadist terror groups it is linked to, is to wipe Israel off the map (what did Netanyahu said? it is a war against Hamas not against the people of Gaza - do you think he is wrong too then?). That is what I said.

"Yo complain about Israel and its seizing of property" Where do you see that in my comment? Where??

When I say "Yes, "if the Palestinians want peace they stop attacking Israel". But if Israel wants peace, they should also stop doing what they are doing in the West Bank (again see links in comment above), as Palestinian National Security Forces (West Bank) never attack them although they would have 1 or 2 reasons for it. ", this is when I mention the West Bank and the actions of Israel (and again, the context of my comment is a response to someone), which are part of the problem, right? The problem is not only Gaza but also the West Bank if they want peace. Even if they wipe out Hamas or even Gaza, the problem of the West Bank remains and the problem is Israel there, you do not see the Palestinian National Security Forces attacking Israel, not even the settlers. If they continue to do so, colonising, how do they expect to have peace (this is what I said). And I said that because that is what many people in Israel say, some of my friends for a start but also...

....a former head of the Mossad

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-06/ty-article/there-is-an-apartheid-state-here-ex-mossad-chief-on-israels-west-bank-occupation/0000018a-6abe-dfd9-ad9f-efbe5c720000

... an ex Israeli general

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-13/ty-article/ex-israeli-general-says-army-partaking-in-west-bank-war-crimes-invokes-nazi-germany/00000189-ee00-d9cf-a7eb-ff2b12bf0000

... the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem

SO THAT IS WHAT MY COMMENT SAID. I hope you undertand what I meant now...

The 2nd paragraph: "your polemic"... (???). This one is even more obvious of the fact that you did not read my comment properly and mixing things in the process, I am not even sure I understand your insinuation as well (polemic??), I rather not understand.

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Vigo said:

Come back with context. What were they doing at the time of their death. Please take the past 100 deaths of the martyrs you support, and identify what they were doing.  You have no idea do you? You don't want to know the circumstances. In many cases they  deceased are indeed  relatively innocent, but die as a result of cross fire or their own people's misdirected bullets and rockets.

The context is this...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-06/ty-article/there-is-an-apartheid-state-here-ex-mossad-chief-on-israels-west-bank-occupation/0000018a-6abe-dfd9-ad9f-efbe5c720000

This...

https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem

This...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-13/ty-article/ex-israeli-general-says-army-partaking-in-west-bank-war-crimes-invokes-nazi-germany/00000189-ee00-d9cf-a7eb-ff2b12bf0000

This...

https://observers.france24.com/en/20100910-hebron-palestinian-shopkeepers-are-drowning-rubbish-israeli-settlers

This...

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/03/palestinians-hebrons-old-city-build-fence-prevent-settlers-attacks

etc... etc...

A little question: are you a suscriber to the New York Time?

[Vigo]

6 hours ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

All of which is total conjecture...

Conjecture is on your part. As I wrote, please come back with the past 100  deaths and we can go through them.. For example, a child died of heart failure subsequent to a stone throwing incident. The parents blamed the IDF saying the boy was traumatized and he was scared to death. The reality was that there was indeed a stone throwing incident where vehicles were damaged and occupants injured. There was indeed an IDF response with the stone throwers pursued. However, at the time the boy was not in the group being pursued.  The medical exam did not show any physical injury.  In the Arab media, this event was recorded as a child fatality at the hands of the IDF. It was later disclosed that the boy most likely had a pre-existing heart  condition.

[Marc26]

12 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Conjecture is on your part. As I wrote, please come back with the past 100  deaths and we can go through them.. For example, a child died of heart failure subsequent to a stone throwing incident. The parents blamed the IDF saying the boy was traumatized and he was scared to death. The reality was that there was indeed a stone throwing incident where vehicles were damaged and occupants injured. There was indeed an IDF response with the stone throwers pursued. However, at the time the boy was not in the group being pursued.  The medical exam did not show any physical injury.  In the Arab media, this event was recorded as a child fatality at the hands of the IDF. It was later disclosed that the boy most likely had a pre-existing heart  condition.

Don't you have to look at the media on both sides with a fair bit of pessimism though?

 

I don't really trust either side not to put out propaganda that fits their narrative 

 

 

And you can say that for any country or region, I guess

But especially so in regards to this region and conflict, I'd say

[TheDirtyDurian]

12 hours ago, Vigo said:

Conjecture is on your part. As I wrote, please come back with the past 100  deaths and we can go through them.. For example, a child died of heart failure subsequent to a stone throwing incident. The parents blamed the IDF saying the boy was traumatized and he was scared to death. The reality was that there was indeed a stone throwing incident where vehicles were damaged and occupants injured. There was indeed an IDF response with the stone throwers pursued. However, at the time the boy was not in the group being pursued.  The medical exam did not show any physical injury.  In the Arab media, this event was recorded as a child fatality at the hands of the IDF. It was later disclosed that the boy most likely had a pre-existing heart  condition.

I've given you the figures. 23 Palestinians dead for every Israeli. I don't have to come back with anything. They come from the UN. 

You on the other hand just gave an unsubstantiated story for one death.

[ChicagoExpat]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:29 AM, Manu said:

Personally, I prefer to hear what people in Israel have to say, like, for example, my friends, or an ex Israeli general, or a former head of the Mossad (acccording to him, borders in Israel do not even exist as they keep being extended so how can anyone even "disaprove modern Israel borders" as Vigo seems to know so much about?) or The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, to understand what is happening today, rather than commentators on online forums giving their interpretation of history whom for the vast majority, I suspect, have never even been to Israel, never mind in Palestine.

https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem

Sorry, you can't hear what people in Israel have to say, and least some of the people you're quoting... Because a board member of B'tselem was slaughtered by Hamas in a kibbutz.  That's an inconvenient fact for any Hamas supporter.

BTW, can you point to any Palestinian versions of these organizations -- groups of regular people who stand up and say, "I disagree with what my own side is doing?"  Just curious.