News Forum - Hamas attack at Israeli music festival kills over 260

[Fanta]

21 minutes ago, Khunmark said:

Vigo mentions Gaza, if you look closely Gaza has not been annexed by Israel. Gaza, however has been the subject of blockades by Israel.

Mentions Gaza but ignores the plight of the people there and the annexation of the rest of the country. Blockades? Gaza is a concentration camp, population 2 million inmates, with food, fuel, electricity, water etc all rationed under the control of Israel. imo, Palestinians should just give up and leave the country and Israel can finally stop hiding behind the victim card. 

[Pinetree]

17 hours ago, Smiler said:

Religion of peace showing its true colors by attacking old people, women and children, there are some simply horrendous clips online showing bodies being desecrated, children screaming, women being abused as these religious fanatics jump and cheer like a bunch of chimpanzees except chimps are undoubtedly better behaved. 

and if anyone wants to try to allocate blame in this mess, they need to see them.  Terrorist's do this, freedom resistance fighters do not.  Hamas needs to be crushed and in doing so, Gaza will be reduced to rubble and thousands will die,  You reap what you sow. 

[Vigo]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Mentions Gaza but ignores the plight of the people there and the annexation of the rest of the country. Blockades? Gaza is a concentration camp, population 2 million inmates, with food, fuel, electricity, water etc all rationed under the control of Israel. imo, Palestinians should just give up and leave the country and Israel can finally stop hiding behind the victim card. 

Yes, the blockade is so bad, that Gaza was able to import 5,000 plus missiles, much of it Iranian supplied. And it was so bad that Gaza had enough rebar and concrete to construct  a massive array of tunnels and bunkers within the strip.

Israel did not block the transit of medication, food, or a long list of basic commodities and luxury items. 

[BigHewer]

8 off topic posts and their replies removed.

Moderator

[ChicagoExpat]

A really interesting aspect of the "Israel blockades Gaza", is that most of those who cite this seem to be unaware that Gaza borders two countries, and that other country also blockades Gaza (officially, anyway) for the same and additional reasons as Israel.

The bottom line is Gazans/Hamas are hated by almost everyone, and for good reason.

[Fanta]

9 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Israel did not block the transit of medication, food, or a long list of basic commodities and luxury items. 

 

That’s debatable - just use Google. And how do the unemployed Palestinians pay for this “unlimited” supply of goods? They can’t. 

20 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Yes, the blockade is so bad, that Gaza was able to import 5,000 plus missiles, much of it Iranian supplied. And it was so bad that Gaza had enough rebar and concrete to construct  a massive array of tunnels and bunkers within the strip.

It’s amazing what people can accomplish in 75 years. 

 

[Fanta]

28 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

The bottom line is Gazans/Hamas are hated by almost everyone, and for good reason.

The problem with that broad condemnation is that you are talking about 2.3 million people. Hamas is a pack of crazies and should be neutered but that still leaves a couple of million civilians to deal with. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

[ChicagoExpat]

8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The problem with that broad condemnation is that you are talking about 2.3 million people. Hamas is a pack of crazies and should be neutered but that still leaves a couple of million civilians to deal with. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

Yes, I'm aware, and have been there myself.

[EdwardV]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Hamas is a pack of crazies and should be neutered but that still leaves a couple of million civilians to deal with. 

“imo, Palestinians should just give up and leave the country and Israel can finally stop hiding behind the victim card.”  - Agreed. The fact they don’t want to leave aside, where do they go? Most of the Arab world doesn’t want them for various reasons. 

27 minutes ago, Fanta said:

It’s amazing what people can accomplish in 75 years. 

More likely since the 2018 conflict, at the latest the major war of 2008. The Palestinians have been arming for years but it’s been a lot less than 75. 

[Pinetree]

31 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Hamas is a pack of crazies and should be neutered but that still leaves a couple of million civilians to deal with. 

and those couple of million put up with, and largely support,  the terrorists.  Very few people are truly 'innocent' in these conflicts, hence my view that you get what you are prepared to put up with.  It's the same for all Russians and those in North Korea. Gaza will be levelled and they have only themselves to blame. Harsh but true.  

[Rookiescot]

I think this latest attack (personally I would call it an atrocity) by HAMAS will result in a lot of sympathy they once enjoyed being lost.

There was, prior to this, fault on both sides. HAMAS regularly firing rockets into and causing disturbances within Israeli territory and Israel illegally annexing land it did not own.

However attacking and massacring civilians, seizing some as hostages, parading women naked through the streets where they were attacked by a mob is simply inexcusable. 

Especially given that HAMAS knows exactly what the response of Israel will be and it is willing to subject its own civilian population to that.

This is the actions of a pariah state. It seems Gazza, Russia, Iran and North Korea are forming an axis of evil. 

[Rookiescot]

Russia and Iran may be implicated in the HAMAS attack.

 

[Guest1]

14 hours ago, Marc26 said:

 

Israel will now wipe Gaza off the map, that's what they wanted to do and have the excuse and permission to do so now

And still, the world is wondering, the people of Israel are wondering, how the Hamas could surprise the intel of the Israel army and get that many and strong over the border?

Firing rockets is one thing, but having crossed the border is another, isn't it?

Just saying, the Mossad is usually best informed about things, concerning the safety of Israel.

[Wackamole]

8 hours ago, Vigo said:

The arab culture/mentality requires that there always be retribution and that it must be much more severe than the initial attack, otherwise the attacks continue.

what is Israel saying to the world right now? Basically "The animals have killed hundreds of us, you must all support us as we annihilate their nation completely".

The rest of your talking points is nice propaganda completely devoid of nuance and reality.

"Israel has never ever targeted civilians, nor children"

The balls to write that.

 

 

 

[Pinetree]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

within Israeli territory and Israel illegally annexing land it did not own.

Interesting point.  At what point in history did this occur? The historical fact, if you go back far enough, is that they were all separate tribes, living in the same miserable piece of scrub land in the Middle East, all scrapping with each other, killing and raping,  for thousands of years, well until the Romans came along and gave the place an semblance of  order. Who owns what?  The British were mandated Palestine and did nothing to address the underlying issues, because nobody could.   The Modern State of Israel was mandated in 1948 out of pity and fear following the Holocaust.  The West Bank was occupied in 1967 when Jordan and its mates tried to wipe Israel off the map.  The Israelis then compounded the problems by building 'illegal' settlements on land they occupied, but historically that land was occupied by the Jews and Arabs together?  Whos in the wrong here? If its anything its religion, bigotry, racism, lack of understanding and above all, the incompetence of legions of politicians over years and years.?  God, if there is one, which there isn't,  only knows how this gets solved and nobody else does either. Personally, I would leave them all to the cesspit they have all created,  and this from a person whos Father's parents and family were Jewish.  

[Vigo]

15 hours ago, Fanta said:

Really? So how do you explain this?

 

And away you go with the distortion of the history and facts. The hypocrisy is laughable. You have attached maps post 1917 with the incorrect name Palestine in the first two.  For someone always bemoaning the evils of western colonialism it is astounding that you so readily accept maps based upon recent western colonial occupation.  colonial empire maps. Here are some facts that you cannot deny; From the early 1500's to WWI, the area you show in the maps was part of the Ottoman Empire. There was no Jordan, no KSA, no Syria as it is today and no Palestine. The Ottoman Empire used sheikhdoms and provinces. The region you show in the maps was divided into four districts, attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. Unlike the Europeans, the Turks were  civilized and welcoming to the Jewish people. There were local jewish communities comprised of descendants of Jews who had never left the region as well as immigrants from North Africa and Europe. During the Ottoman rule, there was a Jewish majority population in Jerusalem. The Jewish population grew under the Ottomans and assimilated into the fabric of the Empire. The Ottoman Empire recognized much of the  region in the maps as Jewish lands, although subject to Ottoman rule. Under the ottoman rule there was no Palestine. There was a region of filistine (or Philistine) and it was a small area towards  what is now Gaza.

Fast forward to WWI where the  French and British  sought to undermine Germany's ally Turkey with promises of nationhood to various arab factions. One of the most important were the Hashemites. In return for participating in the 1916 Arab revolt, Great Britain promised the Arabs one united nation,  a Greater Syria. Behind the Arabs backs, the  British and French then  created their famous Sykes Picot  agreement that split up the former Ottoman territory along borders determined by European occupiers and bestowed upon the new territories. Hashemites were given a new Kingdom called Transjordan. they had their new  Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. However, the French carved Lebanon out of what we call Syria today and kept the remains of Syria as an autonomous French colony. The British kept the rest of the Arab  territories as colonies, and it was the British who brought back the name of Palestine.  The europeans also betrayed the Arab Kurds by denying them the return of their homeland.

Slice and dice the  borders anyway you want, the reality is that they changed through war. Wars where Arab nations bombarded Israel from  highlands like the Golan Heights) or attacked Israel repeatedly and lost land in the ensuing  hostilities. The reality is that much of  Jerusalem called occupied by the Arabs was initially part of modern Israel but lost following the war of 1948. Israel regained the territory in 1967.

The point of all of the above is that the modern  borders reflect european colonial occupation and are not necessarily reflective of the historical borders or regions as occupied under Ottoman rule. For example, Gaza was only remotely  settled pre 1948 and at that time had a sizeable jewish population. The jews were driven out by the arrival of arabs from modern day Israel who were following the  instructions of their arab leaders. They were told to leave to facilitate the destruction of Israel. They obviously erred.

If you disapprove of modern israel borders, then surely you cannot accept the existence of Lebanon as an independent nation, nor Jordan. They should all be part of  greater Syria. KSA, Yemen, modern Iraq should not exist either since their borders were a creation of the British.

And despite all this border talk and  the lies of occupation of Gaza, the fact remains that the Hamas terrorists executed children, the elderly and hundreds of unarmed non combatants. They have taken civilians hostages.   This is a war supported by by iran and most likely Russia.

 

[Fanta]

6 hours ago, Vigo said:

And away you go with the distortion of the history and facts. The hypocrisy is laughable. You have attached maps post 1917 with the incorrect name Palestine in the first two.  For someone always bemoaning the evils of western colonialism it is astounding that you so readily accept maps based upon recent western colonial occupation.  colonial empire maps. Here are some facts that you cannot deny; From the early 1500's to WWI, the area you show in the maps was part of the Ottoman Empire. There was no Jordan, no KSA, no Syria as it is today and no Palestine. The Ottoman Empire used sheikhdoms and provinces. The region you show in the maps was divided into four districts, attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. Unlike the Europeans, the Turks were  civilized and welcoming to the Jewish people. There were local jewish communities comprised of descendants of Jews who had never left the region as well as immigrants from North Africa and Europe. During the Ottoman rule, there was a Jewish majority population in Jerusalem. The Jewish population grew under the Ottomans and assimilated into the fabric of the Empire. The Ottoman Empire recognized much of the  region in the maps as Jewish lands, although subject to Ottoman rule. Under the ottoman rule there was no Palestine. There was a region of filistine (or Philistine) and it was a small area towards  what is now Gaza.

Fast forward to WWI where the  French and British  sought to undermine Germany's ally Turkey with promises of nationhood to various arab factions. One of the most important were the Hashemites. In return for participating in the 1916 Arab revolt, Great Britain promised the Arabs one united nation,  a Greater Syria. Behind the Arabs backs, the  British and French then  created their famous Sykes Picot  agreement that split up the former Ottoman territory along borders determined by European occupiers and bestowed upon the new territories. Hashemites were given a new Kingdom called Transjordan. they had their new  Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. However, the French carved Lebanon out of what we call Syria today and kept the remains of Syria as an autonomous French colony. The British kept the rest of the Arab  territories as colonies, and it was the British who brought back the name of Palestine.  The europeans also betrayed the Arab Kurds by denying them the return of their homeland.

Slice and dice the  borders anyway you want, the reality is that they changed through war. Wars where Arab nations bombarded Israel from  highlands like the Golan Heights) or attacked Israel repeatedly and lost land in the ensuing  hostilities. The reality is that much of  Jerusalem called occupied by the Arabs was initially part of modern Israel but lost following the war of 1948. Israel regained the territory in 1967.

The point of all of the above is that the modern  borders reflect european colonial occupation and are not necessarily reflective of the historical borders or regions as occupied under Ottoman rule. For example, Gaza was only remotely  settled pre 1948 and at that time had a sizeable jewish population. The jews were driven out by the arrival of arabs from modern day Israel who were following the  instructions of their arab leaders. They were told to leave to facilitate the destruction of Israel. They obviously erred.

If you disapprove of modern israel borders, then surely you cannot accept the existence of Lebanon as an independent nation, nor Jordan. They should all be part of  greater Syria. KSA, Yemen, modern Iraq should not exist either since their borders were a creation of the British.

And despite all this border talk and  the lies of occupation of Gaza, the fact remains that the Hamas terrorists executed children, the elderly and hundreds of unarmed non combatants. They have taken civilians hostages.   This is a war supported by by iran and most likely Russia.

Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land. 

[Pinetree]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land. 

In whose eyes, the supposed 'international community', which is actually a fiction in itself and doesnt exist.  See above from Vigo.  It's just not that simple and in any event, would never justify terrorism, 

[Fanta]

2 hours ago, Pinetree said:

In whose eyes, the supposed 'international community', which is actually a fiction in itself and doesnt exist.  See above from Vigo.  It's just not that simple and in any event, would never justify terrorism, 

It is as simple as looking at a map. Israel is squeezing the Palestinians out. 
And let’s get one thing crystal clear. I am not trying to justify Hamas’ atrocious actions - put them down like rabid dogs but leave the 2 million non combatants out of it. 

[Pinetree]

21 minutes ago, Fanta said:

It is as simple as looking at a map. Israel is squeezing the Palestinians out. 
And let’s get one thing crystal clear. I am not trying to justify Hamas’ atrocious actions - put them down like rabid dogs but leave the 2 million non combatants out of it. 

Whose map is that then?  One from, now, one from 1900, 1800, 800 BC, 2000 years BC. Maps tell you nothing unless you know the history.  Without historical context, recent comments on many forums, social media and mainstream news  are without logic, credibility or foundation. 

[EdwardV]

38 minutes ago, Fanta said:

It is as simple as looking at a map. Israel is squeezing the Palestinians out. 

Wasn’t it you who said they should just leave? (Something to that effect). I’m not disagreeing with what you wrote just questioning if it’s a distinction without a difference??? 

40 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And let’s get one thing crystal clear. I am not trying to justify Hamas’ atrocious actions - put them down like rabid dogs but leave the 2 million non combatants out of it. 

Isn’t that kinda hard to do if Hamas is fighting from civilian locations? It’s not soldiers fighting soldiers, it’s soldiers fighting terrorists. For the most part the terrorists look like, live and fight from among the civilians. 

Soldiers don’t take hostages, terrorists do. I do agree with your sentiment, just don’t think Hamas will play along. 

[Vigo]

25 minutes ago, Fanta said:

It is as simple as looking at a map. Israel is squeezing the Palestinians out. 
And let’s get one thing crystal clear. I am not trying to justify Hamas’ atrocious actions - put them down like rabid dogs but leave the 2 million non combatants out of it. 

You have assumed that there was a legitimate "Palestine" Although your respect for the British empire and its colonial rule is to be applauded, your position  requires that 500+ years of Ottoman rule be ignored. There was no Palestine nation while the Ottomans ruled. There was a continuation of the districs of Judea  and Jerusalem as a province of Damascus. Palestine as it is used today was a name created  for the modern era by the British colonial rule. 

Ok, you insist that there has always been a Palestine. Please identify who was the leader/ PM/President. of Palestine in 1948 when the country was declared? How about in 1916 when the Arab revolt began? How about in 1918 after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire? How about in 1927, or 1937? Under the Ottoman empire there was a continuous autonomous Jewish presence with designated borders in the region of Safed, Hebron and Tiberias. This is why Hebron is so contentious today and reflects the history of the region. Hebron was initially a majority jewish  town. When the Egyptian uprising occurred, and the Ottoman Empire lost control  of the area for a few years in the 1800's, the jews were killed or expelled, in part because the arabs wanted their land and in part because they were loyal to the Ottoman Empire and aligned against the invading Sultan from Egypt. On and on it goes, back and forth.

The recognition of the role of the Ottoman empire irks Arabs because it shows that the Turks ran the region and they did it better than the Arabs. It upsets European nationalists and leftists because the muslims did it better than the Europeans and had a more successful and prosperous Empire than europeans who were still living in mud huts and without potable water.  At the height of Ottoman rule, the Empire enjoyed sanitation, city lighting, advanced medical care and enlightened education. 

Your position requires that only the period post 1918 is valid and that the previous  centuries of history be ignored. Ok, that's your view and it is quite typical of Europeans and Central Asians who only see the world from their perspective.

[TheDirtyDurian]

13 minutes ago, Vigo said:

You have assumed that there was a legitimate "Palestine" Although your respect for the British empire and its colonial rule is to be applauded, your position  requires that 500+ years of Ottoman rule be ignored. There was no Palestine nation while the Ottomans ruled. There was a continuation of the districs of Judea  and Jerusalem as a province of Damascus. Palestine as it is used today was a name created  for the modern era by the British colonial rule. 

Ok, you insist that there has always been a Palestine. Please identify who was the leader/ PM/President. of Palestine in 1948 when the country was declared? How about in 1916 when the Arab revolt began? How about in 1918 after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire? How about in 1927, or 1937? Under the Ottoman empire there was a continuous autonomous Jewish presence with designated borders in the region of Safed, Hebron and Tiberias. This is why Hebron is so contentious today and reflects the history of the region. Hebron was initially a majority jewish  town. When the Egyptian uprising occurred, and the Ottoman Empire lost control  of the area for a few years in the 1800's, the jews were killed or expelled, in part because the arabs wanted their land and in part because they were loyal to the Ottoman Empire and aligned against the invading Sultan from Egypt. On and on it goes, back and forth.

The recognition of the role of the Ottoman empire irks Arabs because it shows that the Turks ran the region and they did it better than the Arabs. It upsets European nationalists and leftists because the muslims did it better than the Europeans and had a more successful and prosperous Empire than europeans who were still living in mud huts and without potable water.  At the height of Ottoman rule, the Empire enjoyed sanitation, city lighting, advanced medical care and enlightened education. 

Your position requires that only the period post 1918 is valid and that the previous  centuries of history be ignored. Ok, that's your view and it is quite typical of Europeans and Central Asians who only see the world from their perspective.

Nonsense. There are written records referring to Palestine going back three millennium.

[Vigo]

9 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

Nonsense. There are written records referring to Palestine going back three millennium.

Yes, but as a region, not as a  nation. Even the borders of  "Palestine" have never been consistent. If one takes the original version, it can stretch into KSA, Jordan and up into Lebanon. If taken as the area occupied by the Philistinans then it is the area south of Gaza stretching into Egypt. Filistine aka Palestine was akin to using the term Asia. Do you consider Asia or Africa a country? How about Appalachia?

Tell you what, you get Jordan,  KSA, lebanon, Egypt and Syria to agree to cut out large parts of their countries and agree to hand it over to your country called Palestine and then you can pressure Israel to merge.

If you want to play the historical map game, then KSA should be part of Israel since the Kingdom of Saul included much of KSA. And how about parts of Lebanon, because ancient Israel at one time stretched passed Tyre.  And if you want to rely on mentions of names, then all of the land could revert to Syria, since it was technically a province of Damascus, although Syria and Damascus was claimed by the Egyptians at one time.

 

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Wasn’t it you who said they should just leave? (Something to that effect). I’m not disagreeing with what you wrote just questioning if it’s a distinction without a difference??? 

Standing on the outside looking in, the Palestinians are screwed and their territory is being consumed bit by bit. They cannot militarily defeat Israel so what’s the solution? My “solution” was impossibly simplistic - just leave. You got a better one?