News Forum - Thailand’s new tax twist: Overseas earners spending 180 days face income tax

[HolyCowCm]

40 minutes ago, Stevejm said:

Yes they are at the higher earnings levels but I did a quick calculation on the tax liability for someone on the full UK pension and that works out to less than THB 6500 per year just to give some idea. If married and spouse has no income the tax would be less than 3500

Curious, so how much is a UK State Pension? Is bottom level 815 pounds? Times that by 12 months then take some small deductions here and you are still paying 10% on that. Comes out to a lot more tax than THB 6500 per year unless I am thinking wrong on the matter. In the USA you do not have to file tax at a certain level, and this if striaght forward would be taxed by the Thai side.

 

Filing Status	Taxpayer age at the end of 2022	A taxpayer must file a return if their gross income was at least:
single	under 65	$12,950
single	65 or older	$14,700

 

[Guest1]

I am just wondering, if multiple entry imm O holder will slip through this new rules.

Not having contact with an  immigration center may have another advantage.

 

[HolyCowCm]

27 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

I am just wondering, if multiple entry imm O holder will slip through this new rules.

Not having contact with an  immigration center may have another advantage.

You can probaly presume you would be subject to them counting days in your passport when you go to get a new yearly visa. I remember the Penang consulate decades ago tightening the screws, and this was one of the direct results from the Puppeteer. This person before seemed in appearnce to not like foreigner who stay here and now has huge experience living on the outside in exile and how to twist the nipples even more with a vengeance. I would love to know if he paid taxes or not on the outside. My guess is no for Dubai and No for the UK under diplomatic immunity or, I am a rich untouchable..

I would think it would be related to not allowing you free access to leave until remedied. Just like the old days of paying 500 baht departure tax at Don Mueang. They might also look at your residence for where you stay here and determine it is a permanent situation set up by you and then come knocking at your door. Do you always stay registered at the same place? I have had immigration counting my days upon arrival here before and then looking at my permission to stay and realizing the 6 months did not relate to me. But in this case it would be the opposite in counting and seeing my 6 months here subject me to this. It may take a few months of them fine tuning how to even more closely follow foreingers, but they will if puppet master stays. I see privacy slipping away more than it ever seemed to be, but many of us have set your lives up here and will just have to put up with it.

[Stevejm]

1 hour ago, HolyCowCm said:

Just like the old days of paying 500 baht departure tax at Don Mueang

Yes I remember that but that was just a simple departure tax not related to income received in the country. You still have to pay that tax but it is now included in ticket prices.However in the early 90s you were supposed to get a tax clearance certificate if you stayed in the country for more than 90 days in a year. I got one but it wasn’t asked for on my departure. Time will tell I suppose but I take some comfort from the statements which say that this taxation issue will mainly be dealt with by self declaration on your tax return. When they start asking for your TIN when applying for a visa you will know that it is getting serious. Note that the below image is from the 1990 Lonely Planet guide for Thailand

[Stevejm]

3 hours ago, HolyCowCm said:

Curious, so how much is a UK State Pension? Is bottom level 815 pounds? Times that by 12 months then take some small deductions here and you are still paying 10% on that. Comes out to a lot more tax than THB 6500 per year unless I am thinking wrong on the matter. In the USA you do not have to file tax at a certain level, and this if striaght forward would be taxed by the Thai side.

Filing Status	Taxpayer age at the end of 2022	A taxpayer must file a return if their gross income was at least:
single	under 65	$12,950
single	65 or older	$14,700

UK state pension is currently £203 pet week which is approximately THB 36540 per month. Applying standard allowances for a single person the tax comes out as below. In UK there would be no tax to pay on that but don’t forget that under the double taxation law you can only offset taxes actually paid overseas against Thai taxes due. The fact that you are receiving income in a country with a double taxation agreement doesn’t mean that you are exempt Thai taxes

 

[HolyCowCm]

7 minutes ago, Stevejm said:

Yes I remember that but that was just a simple departure tax not related to income received in the country. You still have to pay that tax but it is now included in ticket prices.However in the early 90s you were supposed to get a tax clearance certificate if you stayed in the country for more than 90 days in a year. I got one but it wasn’t asked for on my departure. Time will tell I suppose but I take some comfort from the statements which say that this taxation issue will mainly be dealt with by self declaration on your tax return. When they start asking for your TIN when applying for a visa you will know that it is getting serious. Note that the below image is from the 1990 Lonely Planet guide for Thailand

Yes I also know about this tax clearance certificate but was never subjected to needing one thank goodness. I was only ever hit up for the departure tax and one time had a 1 day overstay.

It is all nervous speculation of what is going to happen at this point, and these people seem to always get a kick of blantantly introducing something that is only half cocked not completely thought through, and so par for their course to either finish the details of how to do later, or shelve it until a further date keeping it on the books. For me, I just want to know where we all stand and if they are going to be fair about this releaing all details and within this month so I can plan accordingly of goign to the USA and forwarding savings or forgoing it as not necesaary.

 

[Stevejm]

43 minutes ago, HolyCowCm said:

Yes I also know about this tax clearance certificate but was never subjected to needing one thank goodness. I was only ever hit up for the departure tax and one time had a 1 day overstay.

It is all nervous speculation of what is going to happen at this point, and these people seem to always get a kick of blantantly introducing something that is only half cocked not completely thought through, and so par for their course to either finish the details of how to do later, or shelve it until a further date keeping it on the books. For me, I just want to know where we all stand and if they are going to be fair about this releaing all details and within this month so I can plan accordingly of goign to the USA and forwarding savings or forgoing it as not necesaary.

Yes. I actually think there may be a case of unnecessary over excitement going on ( possibly stirred up by the media). I checked the old tax laws that applied last year and the 180 day definition of a resident is not new. It was in place previously. As far as I can tell the only change in the law is that the loophole which allowed tax on overseas earnings to be avoided if they were remitted to Thailand in the following tax year has been closed. The requirement for tax to be paid on overseas earnings remitted to Thailand in the year that they were earned was in place last year so if pensions and remittances of overseas savings to Thailand were considered to be overseas earnings then tax on them would have been due previously. Time will tell but I think this might all be a fuss about nothing.

[MPK]

2 hours ago, Stevejm said:

so if pensions and remittances of overseas savings to Thailand were considered to be overseas earnings then tax on them would have been due previously.

Indeed, but this was not really enforced and hardly any foreigner payed taxes on remittances.  Now this will be different and the Thai authorities can also use this to go after all those foreigners who did not do so in the past as the statute of limitations for taxes is generally 10 years in Thailand. 

 

 

[Matt123]

 

On 9/30/2023 at 2:27 PM, HolyCowCm said:

Just a thought. There is one rule on the books for certain people a tax is filed and paid every month under something like a PND #, or by March 31 every year for anuual. Not sure how it goes, but I do not think immigration will let any foreingers out of the country unless they show they are up to date and filed a monthly form. They are not just going to let anyone escape I would think, so this has the makings of being a reak shite show.

"Not sure how it goes, but I do not think immigration will let any foreingers out of the country"
" They are not just going to let anyone escape"

The foreigner who is a tax resident in Thailand suddenly will not be able to use his multiple entry permit to leave and come back to Thailand?  So, the Suvarnabhumi  immigration officer will receive a flag in his system that there's a lateness in a tax form submission. Said officer would then follow what newly invented policy?  To proceed with incarceration of said foreigner in a jailing cell until the outstanding balance of a tax filing has been calculated?  At the moment said system at the airport can't even flag foreigners leaving who are in breach of 90 days reporting and you're expecting the new system to do cross-system runs with tax computations with incarceration /prevention of said farang to leave the country with new policy and policy execution. How would that play out in real life? A tax debt isnt associated with travel restrictions and certainly not a lateness of filing a form.  It just won't happen sunshine. Stop the fearmongering.

This is legal advise, please DM me and I'll send you an invoice for my time.





 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Matt123

[Stat]

Hello Guys,

 

any firsthand experiences or feedback from Thai RD so far regarding the new directive? I am aware that the full impact will show after the deadline to hand in your taxes in 2025 (for 2024).

 

Thanks!

[AussieBob]

1 hour ago, Stat said:

Hello Guys,

any firsthand experiences or feedback from Thai RD so far regarding the new directive? I am aware that the full impact will show after the deadline to hand in your taxes in 2025 (for 2024).

Thanks!

Hi Stat - not first hand - only what others say in forums.   It seems to me that we all must wait until Thai RD finally answers all the questions they have received - from Thais, Companies, Tax Accountants, and Expats.  Have you any experience in dealing with them - T&G 

[butterfly]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:18 AM, Stevejm said:

As far as I can tell the only change in the law is that the loophole which allowed tax on overseas earnings to be avoided if they were remitted to Thailand in the following tax year has been closed. The requirement for tax to be paid on overseas earnings remitted to Thailand in the year that they were earned was in place last year so if pensions and remittances of overseas savings to Thailand were considered to be overseas earnings then tax on them would have been due previously.

yes that's my understanding too

as long as you didn't transfer back to Thailand, you were fine

and there is also the question of Thai authorities being capable of accessing information on offshore and overseas payments

They could make a new requirement for Non-Immigrant Visa renewal to have you disclose all your income earned outside Thailand

[AussieBob]

 

There has been a lot of discussion about if and when Retired/Married Expats (RMEs) have to lodge a tax return in this 'new tax era' of the Thai Revenue Department (TRD)  IMO the vast majority will not need to lodge a tax return - but as always it is best to get your own legal/financial advice on this and any other taxation matter or opinion. 

I have been researching and discussing this 'new tax era' since it was first announced in September 2023.  I am still extremely annoyed that Thailand could even think about taxing RMEs, but my initial thoughts that this would screw over all RMEs has turned out to be not as bad as I first thought.

Firstly - all Expats who work or own a business in Thailand have to lodge a tax return - my comments below only applies to RMEs who do not work or own a business in Thailand. 

The reason I say that IMO most RMEs do not need to lodge a tax return, is because my read of the Thai Revenue Code, is that it specifically states that 'assessable income' means 'taxable income'. IMO assessable income is not all the money brought into Thailand, but it is the specific money brought into Thailand that is taxable - and there are lots of exclusions and exemptions. 

Assessable income - means income that is taxable under this Chapter. Such income also includes a property or any other benefit received which may be computed into a monetary value, any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer and tax credit under Section 47 Bis.

Advisory Notice | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Therefore IMO if your pension is already taxed (enough to cover any Thai taxes) and/or it is not taxable under a DTA, then it is not taxable income when it is remitted into Thailand. Additionally, all savings from past earnings before 1 Jan 2024, are not taxable income as clearly stated by the Thai Revenue Department. and quoted in many media websites.

However, IMO any income earned overseas after 1 Jan 2024, from sources such as property rental, investments, etc., is taxable income, and if you bring more than 120K Baht of that type of money into Thailand, then you need to lodge a tax return.  That does not mean you have to pay taxes on that amount - it means you add it all up and then claim whatever allowances and deductions are available. In a separate thread it is detailed how a married Expat over a certain age can get about 500K in deductions - this is something that you must either calculate yourself (and keep records) or get a tax accountant/expert to do that for you. 

There is no advice yet from TRD about what happens when a person has non-taxable savings overseas and that money earns interest - and then a portion of the total amount is remitted into Thailand. Obviously it is not all taxable (only the interest portion) - but how much of that interest is actually remitted when only say 10% of the total amount is remitted. Likewise, there are many other 'complications' that until now was not needed to be clarified - which is according to many Thai pundits, why the original rule was in place for almost 30 years (too complicated). 

IMO this 'new tax era' is a broadening of the existing tax laws to catch out those people and businesses who have been making money overseas (that is taxable), and then bringing that money back into Thailand in the following tax year, when it is not taxable. Certainy that has implications for Expats whose money being brought into Thailand is from working/earnings overseas, but IMO for the vast majotrty it has no 'deliberate' affect - note the word 'deliberate'.

Aside from the potential to be 'audited' in the future, and then fined and severely penalised for not lodging a tax return when TRD decides that you should have, I have one main concern for those RMEs who genuinely believe (like me) that they will not have to pay income taxes. That is that the decision is soley at the discretion of the TRD, and if the TRD ever (now or in the future) decide you have to pay income taxes, proving that you dont or did not, will be extremely difficult and expensive.

TRD is not the Immigration Police - they do not have decades of experience in dealing with Expats, they dont speak much English, they operate only in Thai when appealed/challenged, and they have just as many (if not more) 'diifcult' officials, and they are extremely powerful - they can get you arrested, detained and deported.  While some people have had positive interactions, I personally know 2 people who were 'audited' by TRD (businesses) and it was extremely difficult - without the benefit of a Thai speaking wife/business partner they would have been in serious trouble. A I said right up front, the thing that really worries me about this new tax era is Somchai in the local TRD saying - 'you bring 1 million baht, you pay tax now'. 

 

[BainaiThai]

The dual taxation treaty by which both the US and Thailand abide contemplated this nonsense and deals with it specifically. 

 

Article 20: Pensions and Social Security Payments

 

Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.

Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

 

[BlueSphinx]

UK state pensions do not fall under a DTA between UK and Thailand, and are therefor assessable income.  So UK state pensioners almost certainly will have to file a tax declaration to the Thai Revenue service, and that before 1st of April 2024.  And it looks that they would actually have to pay tax on the amount above the deductibles they can declare. 

US social security pensions are 'off the hook', but it will depend on the rest of your income sources that you bring into Thailand whether they are above the tressholds for not having to file a declaration.

[BainaiThai]

I am curious about this April 1 report and pay date.  When I was at the Department of revenue in Prachuap getting my tax id I asked the clerk for the form to report income in March or April, she stated that 2024 tax was not payable before 1/1/2025.

[AussieBob]

1 hour ago, BainaiThai said:

I am curious about this April 1 report and pay date.  When I was at the Department of revenue in Prachuap getting my tax id I asked the clerk for the form to report income in March or April, she stated that 2024 tax was not payable before 1/1/2025.

The Thai tax year is 1 Jan to 31 Dec. You can lodge a tax return (and pay taxes) on or after 1 Jan in the following year. You must lodge return and pay taxes before/on 31 March the following year - requests for delayed payment and/or part-payments can be made.

It is my understanding that, unlike other countries where the Tax Office receives all tax returns and responds with the amount to pay ($0 or $amount), the Thai Revenue Dept accepts the tax return lodged and payment calculated, and randomly 'checks' the returns for erros/ommissions. Please let me know if anyone knows different. 

[AussieBob]

20 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

UK state pensions do not fall under a DTA between UK and Thailand, and are therefor assessable income.  So UK state pensioners almost certainly will have to file a tax declaration to the Thai Revenue service, and that before 1st of April 2024.  And it looks that they would actually have to pay tax on the amount above the deductibles they can declare. 

That might be true and it might not.  Reading/Interpreting DTAs is a specialist field, and there are precedents and exceptions. I would get legal/tax advice before ever submitting a tax return and payment to TRD - they will expect that every year going forward.  IMO no Expat should lodge a tax return/payment until the TRD provides it clarifications and exemptions (expected this year).  

Will the TRD require all Expats to pay income taxes on their Pension Payments (with some like USA exempt under DTAs), or will they continue with the current 'MOI' and not apply income taxes to retired/married Expat's Pensions.  

[BlueSphinx]

18 hours ago, BainaiThai said:

I am curious about this April 1 report and pay date.  When I was at the Department of revenue in Prachuap getting my tax id I asked the clerk for the form to report income in March or April, she stated that 2024 tax was not payable before 1/1/2025.

The response of that clerk at the Prachuap Dept of revenu was correct, but it relates to your 2024 income. 

What I understood from reading some of the more-informed sources about this whole conundrum is that with the changes (or rather the implementation of what was previously not enforced) in Thai tax laws, that long-term stayers in Thailand are required from 1st of January 2024, to submit a tax declaration for their 2023 income, if their assessable 2023 income is above 120.000,- THB (or over 220.000,- THB when combined with their wives 2023 income).  And the deadline for providing that Tax declaration is 31st of March of the year following the 'assessable income year', for which you need a TIN (Tax Identification Number).  So that means that before 1st April of THIS year (2024) you would need to issue a tax declaration to the Thai Internal Revenue Service, when you are eligible.

The main source of confusion is whether your 2023 income is considered 'assessable income' under Thai tax law.  If there is a DTA (double taxation agreement) between Thailand and your home-country, the interpretation of what is stated in such agreement will determine whether income from pension will be considered assessable income.  And there is of course the additional complication when such pension-payments are not paid directly to your Thai bank-account, but when you transfer funds for daily living or to make larger acquisitions (e.g. buying a car) either to your own Thai bank-account or the account of your partner. 

And to further complicate things, I was not aware as mentioned by @AussieBob in his response above, that not only do you have to submit an income declaration before 1st of April when you are eligible, but you actually already have to pay any taxes due according to the data you submitted.  

The confusion/unclarity is such that most long-term stayers will not do it and will wait till all issues are clarified. 

[AussieBob]

46 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

The response of that clerk at the Prachuap Dept of revenu was correct, but it relates to your 2024 income. 

What I understood from reading some of the more-informed sources about this whole conundrum is that with the changes (or rather the implementation of what was previously not enforced) in Thai tax laws, that long-term stayers in Thailand are required from 1st of January 2024, to submit a tax declaration for their 2023 income, if their assessable 2023 income is above 120.000,- THB (or over 220.000,- THB when combined with their wives 2023 income).  And the deadline for providing that Tax declaration is 31st of March of the year following the 'assessable income year', for which you need a TIN (Tax Identification Number).  So that means that before 1st April of THIS year (2024) you would need to issue a tax declaration to the Thai Internal Revenue Service, when you are eligible.

The main source of confusion is whether your 2023 income is considered 'assessable income' under Thai tax law.  If there is a DTA (double taxation agreement) between Thailand and your home-country, the interpretation of what is stated in such agreement will determine whether income from pension will be considered assessable income.  And there is of course the additional complication when such pension-payments are not paid directly to your Thai bank-account, but when you transfer funds for daily living or to make larger acquisitions (e.g. buying a car) either to your own Thai bank-account or the account of your partner. 

And to further complicate things, I was not aware as mentioned by @AussieBob in his response above, that not only do you have to submit an income declaration before 1st of April when you are eligible, but you actually already have to pay any taxes due according to the data you submitted.  

The confusion/unclarity is such that most long-term stayers will not do it and will wait till all issues are clarified. 

Mostly correct and a good read of a very complex and difficult situation. 

Thailand was 'forced' to change their taxation methods in order to be accepted into the OECD/CRS 'financial information sharing' systems.  The agreement to do what was required, was made by the Junta - but they did absolutely zero about implementation - except create a 'special' LTR Visa that wealthy (corrupt?) people could buy and thereby avoid the new taxation method. 

The old method meant that any income earned overseas in any tax year, was only taxable income if it was brought into Thailand in that tax year. So obviously those people avoiding taxation (legally) would hold it back for a year, and then bring it in when it became non-taxable income. The reason the method was used for 30+ years (besides what the cyncics say about corruption and money laundering) was because that method was very easy to manage - the complexities of assertaining what proportion of any money remitted into Thailand was taxable and non-taxable is huge. So basically what happenned before 2024 was that most money remitted into Thailand was non taxable. This change means that going forward, any income earned after 1 Jan 2024 is taxable whenever it is remitted into Thailand - waiting one year no longer makes it non-taxable.

The complexities of that new method only hit home to the 'forward thinking challenged' in the Thai Revenue Dept and in the new Thai Govt, when people realised what was happenning and started complaining. The PM said they are going ahead (need more taxes) and the TRD released a 'clarification Q&A statement' in November - which caused more complaints. The vast majority of those complaints were not Expats - it was and still is Thais - who made their financial plans based on a rule/method that had existed for 30 years and they were given less than 3 months notice. The TRD has since closed up shop and gone into 'committee mode' under instruction from PM to work this all out - and we are all hoping they will include Expat's problems in their deliberations. I hope Thailand delays this new method for personal taxpayers like Malaysia did when they realised the problems involved. But the Govt is pushed TRD to move ahead - they want the extra tax money (pay for 10K handouts - if it ever goes ahead).

IMO the Junta milked the economy for all they could get, and when the jar was getting empty they facilitated an 'exit stage left' strategy - giving themselves immunity from any future prosecution for an illegal coup - while making sure the new Govt would not be too 'radical' by leaving their Senators in place for a year after the election.  There are many things wrong  in Thailand because of their rule and changes - this one is potentially affecting Expats a lot more than any others they did. Hopefully it will work out - because if it does not, there will be a lot of Expats leaving Thailand.  Meanwhile we all have to wait and see what happens in 2024. IMO dont panic, but definitely do some  planning ahead. 

[Stat]

 

(use cc subtitles as this guy is speaking fast and with a strong thai accent)

He claims usage of a foreign CC should be "safe". I have my doubts but another layer of "security" is a good thing.

 

[Stevejm]

Are people aware of the TRD instruction Paw 162 which states that income earned prior to Jan 2024 is not subject to income tax even if it is brought into the country after 1/1/24? This could be important because savings from employment prior to Jan 2024 won’t be taxed whenever it is imported.

You’re welcome  

[Marc26]

People are worried about nothing, IMO

 

Well let me rephrase that because anyone that could be effected should following it 

 

 

I just think it will be a non-event for people that have paid taxes on the income already if there countries have a tax treaty with Thailand 

 

Which most do

 

 

My wife and so many Thais aren't going to pay taxes in Canada(her example) then willingly pay again in Thailand 

[Stat]

21 hours ago, Stevejm said:

Are people aware of the TRD instruction Paw 162 which states that income earned prior to Jan 2024 is not subject to income tax even if it is brought into the country after 1/1/24? This could be important because savings from employment prior to Jan 2024 won’t be taxed whenever it is imported.

You’re welcome  

One canntot stress this fact that all income before 2024 is exempted often enough! One can only hope that Thai RD will accept documents or even better they will not even ask for it.

[Stevejm]

48 minutes ago, Stat said:

One canntot stress this fact that all income before 2024 is exempted often enough! One can only hope that Thai RD will accept documents or even better they will not even ask for it.

https://thailand.acclime.com/guides/inheritance-tax/#:~:text=The inheritance tax rates for,inheritance tax for other heirs

It’s worth noting that the tax free allowance for money received by inheritance is quite significant too (THB 100m) and for gifts is THB 20m.

Personally I think the whole thing might come to nothing as the 180 day tax residence regulation was in place previously. The only change in the regulations was that the facility whereby taxation  of income earned overseas could be avoided if importation was deferred. As far as I know the Immigration Department has never made any announcements about foreign residents having to register for tax. When I was working the Dept of Labour used to ask to see my tax return before issuing a new work permit but Immigration had no interest. Time will tell but when you start to see Immigration forms with a box to fill in your TIN would be the time to worry. IMO only.