News Forum - Thailand’s new tax twist: Overseas earners spending 180 days face income tax

[Basant]

[Basant]

Just a minor clarification.

my impression is that If you have enough deposits in Thai banks to stay few yeards without  bringing any more money from overseas, you will not be taxed and live here carefree on retirement visa.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks

[TWS60]

3 hours ago, Haole.TH said:

If this does go through and retirees do start getting taxed, then it seems and easy solution is to get a SingleEntry or MultipleEntry Visa along with your Visa Extension.  Then just leave the country (like a Visa Run) once or twice per year so you are not in the country 180 days continuously. 

Way I read it in the OP article, it's "up to 180 days per year"; a time test similar in other countries and States (in the USA) for tax purposes.   Cool if you're still working and out of the country anyway, or already a part year snowbird retiree.  

Perhaps similar to others, I'm on a reasonably modest US Government pension covered by double tax treaty, but if I wasn't, be interesting to crunch the numbers to see if potential Thai tax would be less than me and the Mrs traveling to avoid it:  return airfare, food, hotels, incidentals * 2, whilst still accruing money on the books for several fixed cost obligations and long term contingency/self-insurance savings here.   Finding people or a service to mind the pets while we're gone, water the garden a few times a week and generally keep an eye on the house so nobody gets any bright ideas. 

[TWS60]

The 1-year delay on taxable income brought into Thailand always stuck me as an odd Unicorn policy extended to foreigners 40 years ago (as per the BKK Post article on page 2) when Thailand was keen to attract foreigners, Thais with global financial portfolios was less of a thing, and before the digital/internet revolution to Windows XP!  

Times they are 'a changin'. 

What I'm uneasy about is Thailand's typically poor record of thinking through complex policies involving a virtual United Nations list of nationalities, and then it goes further off the rails with inconsistent interpretation and implementation across provincial and local government offices.   In the end, the minor group of dodgy characters the policy was meant for, finds another way to defraud the system, leaving the majority of farangs who follow duh rules, left holding the bag.  

Termination of Embassy Income Verification Letters several years ago is one example among many.   For the sins of the dodgy farangs, we ALL got the Caped Crusader called Big Joke, who went to work on the long list of fraud dodgy farangs stupidly boasted about on social media, leaving the rest of us with fewer options and more layers of bureaucracy.

[HolyCowCm]

19 hours ago, Marc26 said:

The thing is that you choose to live in a high tax country and you may not want to hear this, but you have gotten away without paying taxes in Thailand that most countries would have made you pay.

You are sighting USA tax laws, but if the situation were reversed, the US would absolutely be taxing you up to the tax bracket there if you were living there, deriving income outside the US and not paying up to their tax bracket level.

As for taxing you on money brought in, I just don't think that will happen, Possibly may need to report your US accounts not, which is what the US does to their citizens(tax residents) that live overseas now

I am going to try to keep it clean and calm on this post. Just as anything as always as being here, one needs to wait and see what happens and how it is nipple twisted or carressed, semi retracted or fully retracted putting in another plan of fee. In this case it will not be retracted, that is unless the elite cannot find a loop hole on keeping their wealth. One of Thailand's greatest qualities or soon to be a "has-been" relaxation quality was an openess of that freedom being greatly appreciated while folk still were and are brining in money spreading it around. Seems to reason the monies brought in will conciderably dwindle now, but the the end result is they will have the pigs trough and coffers filled and nothing effects them personally.

The puppet master being back and his not elected party has a huge great deal to do with this, but I won't go into that. Everyone Thai 16 years or older in this place is allowed to have a free give me at other's expense, mainly the way they see it ours, and this was clearly stated by smiley. BS campaign promises and in the end the good Thai folk will see their little titties getting twisted and seeing that light will be already too late. But as the promised 10k is for everyone, then my kid and wife can get in line and take it as well. Why not and might as well as already take care of them.

In the end it is one we will have to navigate. Yes have we all have the option of leave or partially stay under the max days or bend over if the nipple twist is as hard as it looks. I for one am not going anywhere so will deal with it as it is not the first time one has had to do the limbo or jump here. I file tax returns in the old home so am above board. In my opinion the last guy in charge isn't so bad, and I thought I would never say that. 

 

[MPK]

4 hours ago, TWS60 said:

The 1-year delay on taxable income brought into Thailand always stuck me as an odd Unicorn policy extended to foreigners 40 years ago (as per the BKK Post article on page 2) when Thailand was keen to attract foreigners, Thais with global financial portfolios was less of a thing, and before the digital/internet revolution to Windows XP!

The original 1-year delay you mention was not put into action to attract foreigners, but to allow rich Thais avoid taxation.

[MPK]

12 hours ago, Haole.TH said:

Then just leave the country (like a Visa Run) once or twice per year so you are not in the country 180 days continuously.  

Thai tax residency is not determined by being at least 180 days in Thailand continuously, but by being at least 180 days in Thailand within a calendar year.  If this is continuous or not does not matter at all.  Only the total number of days counts.  So your visa run proposal unfortunately does not work.  But you can of course live outside Thailand for the remaining 365 -179 = 186 days and as of today this would avoid tax residency in Thailand

Edited September 28, 2023 by MPK

[Marc26]

3 hours ago, HolyCowCm said:

I am going to try to keep it clean and calm on this post. Just as anything as always as being here, one needs to wait and see what happens and how it is nipple twisted or carressed, semi retracted or fully retracted putting in another plan of fee. In this case it will not be retracted, that is unless the elite cannot find a loop hole on keeping their wealth. One of Thailand's greatest qualities or soon to be a "has-been" relaxation quality was an openess of that freedom being greatly appreciated while folk still were and are brining in money spreading it around. Seems to reason the monies brought in will conciderably dwindle now, but the the end result is they will have the pigs trough and coffers filled and nothing effects them personally.

The puppet master being back and his not elected party has a huge great deal to do with this, but I won't go into that. Everyone Thai 16 years or older in this place is allowed to have a free give me at other's expense, mainly the way they see it ours, and this was clearly stated by smiley. BS campaign promises and in the end the good Thai folk will see their little titties getting twisted and seeing that light will be already too late. But as the promised 10k is for everyone, then my kid and wife can get in line and take it as well. Why not and might as well as already take care of them.

In the end it is one we will have to navigate. Yes have we all have the option of leave or partially stay under the max days or bend over if the nipple twist is as hard as it looks. I for one am not going anywhere so will deal with it as it is not the first time one has had to do the limbo or jump here. I file tax returns in the old home so am above board. In my opinion the last guy in charge isn't so bad, and I thought I would never say that. 

You navigated it for 20+ years, so I am sure you will find a way to do so for 20+ more years, or hopefully more!

 

I personally pay slightly more taxes in Canada than I would owe in US, unfortunately because of that, I don't get to apply to foreign earned income credit, I would love to.

So I don't ever owe taxes to US...........

 

 

And I know if you work in say Hong Kong, where the taxes are low, you would owe the balance up to your tax bracket in US to US(Minus the FEIC)

 

But I can't find any examples like you might be in Thailand

Where there is a tax treaty but you pay less tax in US than you would theoretically owe in Thailand

 

 

[Thommo]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:03 AM, Matt123 said:

A tax on already taxed foreign income transfered into Thailand at a glance seem to breach the existing tax treaties Thailand has in place with a bunch of nations specifically created to help avoid double taxing tax residents with foreigners alike being tax residents.

One curiosity is that since foreigners need to pay a condo purchase with money coming in from overseas (and if money already exists in Thailand it needs to be transfered out of Thailand and then into Thailand again 'earmarked' for condo purchase) there seem to be a risk that transfer is seen as taxable income too if any incoming transactions categorically is taxed.

Disclaimer: I do support the leadership and all policies and this post is for educational purposes only. 

Or you just rage foreign exchange certificate   5000thb/million

[Thommo]

Personally I’m not jumping to any conclusion.  I don’t believe it will affect me personally as being from oz and tax agreement with Thailand.  Maybe it’s the e-beggars better known as YouTubers may have some concern 

[Stevejm]

On 9/28/2023 at 11:35 AM, TWS60 said:

be interesting to crunch the numbers to see if potential Thai tax would be less than me and the Mrs traveling to avoid it:  return airfare, food, hotels, incidentals * 2, whilst still accruing money on the books for several fixed cost obligations and long term contingency/self-insurance savings here.  

Depends on your income I suppose but at least Thailand unlike some other countries applies PIT at different rates according to income levels rather than a flat rate.

[HolyCowCm]

Just a thought. There is one rule on the books for certain people a tax is filed and paid every month under something like a PND #, or by March 31 every year for anuual. Not sure how it goes, but I do not think immigration will let any foreingers out of the country unless they show they are up to date and filed a monthly form. They are not just going to let anyone escape I would think, so this has the makings of being a reak shite show.

[TWS60]

27 minutes ago, HolyCowCm said:

Just a thought. There is one rule on the books for certain people a tax is filed and paid every month under something like a PND #, or by March 31 every year for anuual. Not sure how it goes, but I do not think immigration will let any foreingers out of the country unless they show they are up to date and filed a monthly form. They are not just going to let anyone escape I would think, so this has the makings of being a reak shite show.

Never say never, but that scenario strikes me as a generous overestimation of Thailand's ability to organize and cooperate across different ministries, data bases and provincial rice bowls. 

 "Don't tink too mutt". 

[JackBlack]

An Australian may get a monthly super payment which he then transfers to his Thai bank account. Many super schemes in Australia collect a tax on contributions (ie money deposited into super over the years). So tax has been paid to the Australian Tax Office. Then when the money is withdrawn as a “pension” payment, often many years later, it is withdrawn without any further tax having to be paid. Australia has a double taxation agreement with Thailand. But will the Thai authorities treat these super payments as not having paid tax to the Australian tax office in the year these were received and therefore impose a Thai tax? Or will they accept that “tax” has already been paid in Australia and therefore no tax will be imposed in Thailand?

[Stevejm]

18 hours ago, HolyCowCm said:

Just a thought. There is one rule on the books for certain people a tax is filed and paid every month under something like a PND #, or by March 31 every year for anuual. Not sure how it goes, but I do not think immigration will let any foreingers out of the country unless they show they are up to date and filed a monthly form. They are not just going to let anyone escape I would think, so this has the makings of being a reak shite show.

I don’t think so. The form that you are thinking of is the PND91. If you work here and thus subject to PIT the Dept of Immigration doesn’t check that you have submitted your PND 91. However the Department of Labour does check when you apply for your next Work Permit. I “know” someone who worked in 2019 and didn’t submit their PND 91 for 2019 and they had no problem leaving the country in 2021. According to the BP article the tax will be mainly collected through personal declaration. Most people won’t be registered for PIT unless they work or have worked here. The time to be concerned is when they start requiring people to register for a tax ID when they apply for a visa. Wait and see I suppose. I remember in 1990, when I first came here as a visitor, you we’re supposed to obtain a tax clearance form if you stayed longer than 3 months which I did but it wasn’t asked for when I left.

[Stevejm]

14 hours ago, JackBlack said:

An Australian may get a monthly super payment which he then transfers to his Thai bank account. Many super schemes in Australia collect a tax on contributions (ie money deposited into super over the years). So tax has been paid to the Australian Tax Office. Then when the money is withdrawn as a “pension” payment, often many years later, it is withdrawn without any further tax having to be paid. Australia has a double taxation agreement with Thailand. But will the Thai authorities treat these super payments as not having paid tax to the Australian tax office in the year these were received and therefore impose a Thai tax? Or will they accept that “tax” has already been paid in Australia and therefore no tax will be imposed in Thailand?

Aren’t Aussie super contributions taxed at a lower rate than regular income? That could make it complicated but I doubt that it will be a problem

[HolyCowCm]

On 9/30/2023 at 3:03 PM, TWS60 said:

Never say never, but that scenario strikes me as a generous overestimation of Thailand's ability to organize and cooperate across different ministries, data bases and provincial rice bowls. 

 "Don't tink too mutt". 

Overt Narcissists.

[TSS]

it doesn't say 180 consecutive days, it says residing 180 days or more per year

[Galpo]

Are retirees residents? I'm not sure they are. Anyway, most people's pensions would be taxed in their home country. And then there's the double tax agreement. 

This is aimed at wealthy Thais who earn overseas income.

Don't panic and avoid the noise.

[TheDirtyDurian]

3 hours ago, Galpo said:

Are retirees residents? I'm not sure they are. Anyway, most people's pensions would be taxed in their home country. And then there's the double tax agreement. 

This is aimed at wealthy Thais who earn overseas income.

Don't panic and avoid the noise.

For sure. How can a non immigrant be a resident?

 

[TWS60]

I'd gladly give up my Non-O(Ret) for a permanent residence permit. 

Pay some off-set taxes as a proper "resident".  No more 90-day reports, I/O calling or wanting to spot check me at home, sitting around for a few hours a year waiting for an extension of stay and reentry permit, not to mention the 800k in a Thai bank to demonstrate I have sufficient funds to live here without being able to use the 800k to actually live here.  

Sign me up!

[Stevejm]

19 hours ago, Galpo said:

Are retirees residents? I'm not sure they are. Anyway, most people's pensions would be taxed in their home country. And then there's the double tax agreement

https://kpmg.com/us/en/home/insights/2023/09/tnf-thailand-interpretation-foreign-sourced-income-thailand-tax-residents1.html

Note that the definition of a resident for tax purposes is anyone who has been in the country for more than 180 days in a tax year ( same definition in UK I think). Also remitting from a country with a double tax agreement only gives you the ability to offset the taxes paid in that country against Thai tax liabilities.

 I would suggest that nobody panics until more details are made available as most retirees and other long stayers aren’t registered for PIT in Thailand so aren’t required to submit a tax return.
 

[Marc26]

14 hours ago, Stevejm said:

https://kpmg.com/us/en/home/insights/2023/09/tnf-thailand-interpretation-foreign-sourced-income-thailand-tax-residents1.html

Note that the definition of a resident for tax purposes is anyone who has been in the country for more than 180 days in a tax year ( same definition in UK I think). Also remitting from a country with a double tax agreement only gives you the ability to offset the taxes paid in that country against Thai tax liabilities.

 I would suggest that nobody panics until more details are made available as most retirees and other long stayers aren’t registered for PIT in Thailand so aren’t required to submit a tax return.
 

As you said

I wouldn't worry until something happens definitely 

 

But it does impact people if they will tax because as @HolyCowCm has been pointing out

 

Thailand's tax brackets are much higher than most Western countries 

[Stevejm]

10 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Thailand's tax brackets are much higher than most Western countries

Yes they are at the higher earnings levels but I did a quick calculation on the tax liability for someone on the full UK pension and that works out to less than THB 6500 per year just to give some idea. If married and spouse has no income the tax would be less than 3500

[HolyCowCm]

9 hours ago, Marc26 said:

As you said

I wouldn't worry until something happens definitely 

But it does impact people if they will tax because as @HolyCowCm has been pointing out

Thailand's tax brackets are much higher than most Western countries 

Yes and in reality if say they the Thai tax auditors do straight across the board as Thai tax apple compared to the USA tax apple using their prospective program, then it is the lower income foreing person who is going to get shafted. 

This is all going to be or has to be based on showing your countries filed income tax form proving what is what and what is not, and then filing here yet again coming under the scrutiny of them and their interpretation of how they deem fit. And most of us staying here have seen this at one or two or three times or another with immigration and how they can at times twist things. 

My biggest worry still is they will want to tax savings sent here, and in reality anything that was in the bank prior to 2024 should not be in scope or question and needs to remain untouchable except for the fact of interest. I really don't want to bring in any money prior to the strike of midnight on Dec 31 23:59 2023, so if they would just release the what is and was isn't then I will base my actions on that. If they are going to tax it then they must say everything before the strike of midnight is exempt or I will not even do that. It is like the race has already started but the rules were released after the starters gun was fired.

So if they don't touch SS, or savings already taxed or previously exempted of tax in the USA then it is still an unfair tax braket for foreign folk no matter any way you look at it unless you are a higher earner and the brackets match up at the higher 30 - 35%. Their tax system bottom is set up for third world earners and with that system it is backward for foreing lower level earners. That means their apple is rotten to some degree.

Now I also want to know about their exempt monetary gift and inheritance. This is how I wish to bring in money as well, although my savings should not be taxed.

Not really caring so much on being taxed, but only if the system is on an honest playing field and the apple is not rotten and we know the rules prior to the gun going bang.

Ok is - All savings, SS, gifts, inheritance non taxable. Everything starts after 2024 00:00:01 and nothing is open for discussion prior that time and date. But as I said, I will navigate as needed, just need an honest agreeable level playing field.