News Forum - Thai democracy at risk following Pheu Thai’s exclusion of MFP in coalition

[oldschooler]

  On 8/7/2023 at 10:03 AM, Khunmark said:

Actually that is a bit of a misrepresentation of history. It’s not like Thailand stared down the colonising forces of Britain and France. It was Rama V’s acquiescence to the demands of the British that prevented Thailand from becoming another Burma. He understood that the Thai defence forces would be no match for the British and made a pragmatic decision accordingly.

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France would have added Thailand to their SE Asian Empire in a heartbeat.

Except that Britain said NO.Didn’t want British Burma bordering French Thailand. 
UK wanted, and so got, Thailand as a neutral buffer state. 

[oldschooler]

  On 8/8/2023 at 10:06 PM, Thaidup said:

Because having never being colonized Thailand politics is nuanced and not set to colonized countries "standards" of how to run things, Thailand will do what Thailand does, always has and always will.

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Yes and that’s fine but let’s have no pretence that Thailand is anything other than sixth rate in the great geopolitical scheme of things. Zero “ nuance” or “ cleverness” just systematic oppression of the Low.
Very weak, backward unintelligent non- innovative and inconsequential people with a wretched feudal day by day culture which will never change.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/6/2023 at 8:48 PM, Thaidup said:

Thailand is called "The Kingdom of Thailand" everything that has happened politically over the last 50 years is in consultation with the King, The Thai people like it that way. Not our beeswax.

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Agree. But when a certain institution mentioned we can’t respond properly so best don’t do it. <deleted content>

Fake Buddhism & Rampant Materialism here are especially Nauseating.

But yes set up here is  nothing to do with foreigners at all. Take it or leave it.
Reasons to Live Here vs Everywhere Else: Safe- Hot- Cheap- Relaxed- Convenient- Family -Expat  Lifestyle

No Interest: Culture Politics Corruption People Cuisine Religion Temples Bars or Isaan Cities Farming Islands 

Laws: no interest beyond minimum necessary interface & compliance

Edited August 14, 2023 by BigHewer
Comment on moderarion removed

[Marc26]

  On 8/13/2023 at 2:18 PM, oldschooler said:

Fact: Average ( non- Chinese) Thai IQ outside Bangkok around 85. That’s Quite Stupid & Impossible to build any advanced civilisation or any democracy with,especially with dire rote learning education here,  like all of black Africa in fact. In contrast Bangkok University Students IQ very high around 115-120. Yeah you guessed…. principally Chinese Thais…..who form nearly the entire Thai elite. 

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I was under the impression that Bangkok University is not a very good school

It's for the kids that couldn't get into the better Government schools so had to go to Bangkok and basically buy a diploma

But they have beautiful girls.

All my stepsons girlfriends have been from Bangkok University 

Although I found them all very smart and actually all very driven girls 

[KhaoYai]

Just trying to understand why this argument about history and colonisation is relevant?

The fact is that Thailand has never had a democracy, despite what those in power call it. What they do have is just a joke.  A general who lead a coup, declares he's returning the country to democracy and holding elections, hangs up his uniform, puts on a jacket and declares that he's running in that election - and we all know who won. We all knew who was going to win anyway!

Then said general Prime Minister get together with his buddies and tells them, "look lads, we can't keep getting away with these coups, its looking bad abroad but how can we retain power for our lords?"

A 'cunning plan' is hatched - a new constitution is introduced, voted for by a Thai public of whom 90% had no idea what it contained.  That constitution guaranteed that the generals will remain in control forever as they select the 'Senate' - a body that amongst other things, must approve a new government, no matter how many votes a party has received. Thus, nobody who opposes the generals or the masters they serve has a cat in hell's chance of ever being in government. That's how the generals could promise there would be no more coups - they don't need them.

So.....Thai Democracy at risk? I really hope so because what they've had so far is nothing like democracy.  Its just a joke and I doubt I'll ever get my head around how this situation has survived.  In most other countries there would be mass civil disobedience - jeez, France almost had a civil war because the government wants to raise the retirement age!

Perhaps is Buddhism - acceptance of one's position and place in life? I really don't know but as things stand, groups like Move Forward who had policy proposals that threatened the foundation stones that the piggies trough stands on, never had a chance of being in charge.

So it doesn't really matter what went on historically, its today and now that matters and I can't see things changing any time soon.

[oldschooler]

  On 8/13/2023 at 3:06 PM, Marc26 said:

I was under the impression that Bangkok University is not a very good school

It's for the kids that couldn't get into the better Government schools so had to go to Bangkok and basically buy a diploma

But they have beautiful girls.

All my stepsons girlfriends have been from Bangkok University 

Although I found them all very smart and actually all very driven girls 

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  On 8/13/2023 at 3:06 PM, Marc26 said:

I was under the impression that Bangkok University is not a very good school

It's for the kids that couldn't get into the better Government schools so had to go to Bangkok and basically buy a diploma

But they have beautiful girls.

All my stepsons girlfriends have been from Bangkok University 

Although I found them all very smart and actually all very driven girls 

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I meant all the universities in Bangkok, as a group !

[Marc26]

  On 8/13/2023 at 3:07 PM, KhaoYai said:

Just trying to understand why this argument about history and colonisation is relevant?

The fact is that Thailand has never had a democracy, despite what those in power call it. What they do have is just a joke.  A general who lead a coup, declares he's returning the country to democracy and holding elections, hangs up his uniform, puts on a jacket and declares that he's running in that election - and we all know who won. We all knew who was going to win anyway!

Then said general Prime Minister get together with his buddies and tells them, "look lads, we can't keep getting away with these coups, its looking bad abroad but how can we retain power for our lords?"

A 'cunning plan' is hatched - a new constitution is introduced, voted for by a Thai public of whom 90% had no idea what it contained.  That constitution guaranteed that the generals will remain in control forever as they select the 'Senate' - a body that amongst other things, must approve a new government, no matter how many votes a party has received. Thus, nobody who opposes the generals or the masters they serve has a cat in hell's chance of ever being in government. That's how the generals could promise there would be no more coups - they don't need them.

So.....Thai Democracy at risk? I really hope so because what they've had so far is nothing like democracy.  Its just a joke and I doubt I'll ever get my head around how this situation has survived.  In most other countries there would be mass civil disobedience - jeez, France almost had a civil war because the government wants to raise the retirement age!

Perhaps is Buddhism - acceptance of one's position and place in life? I really don't know but as things stand, groups like Move Forward who had policy proposals that threatened the foundation stones that the piggies trough stands on, never had a chance of being in charge.

So it doesn't really matter what went on historically, its today and now that matters and I can't see things changing any time soon.

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But history is what is allowing this, ad many have stated

Thais have been intentionally kept dumb for this very reason 

So that they don't riot in the streets

Don't question a poor country being ruled by Billionaires 

History is the actual reason....

[cowslip]

  On 8/13/2023 at 2:18 PM, oldschooler said:

Fact: Average ( non- Chinese) Thai IQ outside Bangkok around 85. That’s Quite Stupid & Impossible to build any advanced civilisation or any democracy with,especially with dire rote learning education here,  like all of black Africa in fact. In contrast Bangkok University Students IQ very high around 115-120. Yeah you guessed…. principally Chinese Thais…..who form nearly the entire Thai elite. 

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absolute drivel and anyone who believes in IQ is equally stupid as those they try to quantify

[cowslip]

  On 8/13/2023 at 3:07 PM, KhaoYai said:

Just trying to understand why this argument about history and colonisation is relevant?

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the "colonisation" thing is just a cliche rolled out by those who haven't a clue about Thai history. It has no significance to the real history of Thailand it's just one of those things that the clueless roll ot thinking it is some kind of relevant point or argument.

Understanding history tells us where we come from or how we got here, which is useful - but the colonization cliche is a load of tosh as it shows that people don't understand one iota of Thai history.

[Marc26]

  On 8/13/2023 at 5:34 PM, cowslip said:

absolute drivel and anyone who believes in IQ is equally stupid as those they try to quantify

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Really?

I'm not challenging you but I always thought IQ gave an indication of the capacity to learn 

By the way

I do think Thais are overall an intelligent people 

They just haven't been given the tools to expand that intelligence, well a lot of them 

[cowslip]

  On 8/13/2023 at 6:26 PM, Marc26 said:

Really?

I'm not challenging you but I always thought IQ gave an indication of the capacity to learn 

By the way

I do think Thais are overall an intelligent people 

They just haven't been given the tools to expand that intelligence, well a lot of them 

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the concept of IQ is based on flawed science - a person's intelligence is subjective and tests are culturally tainted, so you are trying to measure something that isn't defined with devices that are not universal. It's a useful tool for racists

Edited August 13, 2023 by cowslip

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/13/2023 at 5:38 PM, cowslip said:

Understanding history tells us where we come from or how we got here, which is useful -

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I don't think it has any bearing at all in today's Thailand.  Thai politics may include the word 'Democracy' but in reality the country is run by the generals for 5 or 6 wealthy families with one in particular at the head - 'The Elite'. Its all about wealth/power and the retention of it. Following the latest election comedy show, even the least educated Thai citizen will realise that there has never been anything even resembling democracy in Thailand.

Over the years various parties have fought with their opposites to gain the people's votes and become 'the government'.  The winners have been allowed to make minor changes to policy and introduce new laws etc. - provided those laws don't damage 'The Elite'. Whenever any party/person/government has become either too popular or sought to introduce changes that threaten the position of 'The Elite' - they have been brought down by either a coup of some huge invented scandal.

Those parties may believe they held power or may have even been part of the charade but the country has never been run for the good of the people and I can't see that changing any time soon.

Its a form of corruption but at its highest level and we all know how common corruption is in Thailand.

Greed, pure greed.

[KhaoYai]

  On 8/13/2023 at 6:26 PM, Marc26 said:

They just haven't been given the tools to expand that intelligence, well a lot of them

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Well we wouldn't want too many of them becoming more educated - especially those from the poorer regions, would we? We don't want them realising they have been 'shafted' for years do we?

And that point has been proved several times over the years - students have been the front runners in most of the anti government protests.

Change will come, it does everywhere eventually but I don't see it on Thailand's horizon yet.

[Marc26]

  On 8/13/2023 at 6:50 PM, cowslip said:

the concept of IQ is based on flawed science - a person's intelligence is subjective and tests are culturally tainted, so you are trying to measure something that isn't defined with devices that are not universal. It's a useful tool for racists

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Kind of fits what I said about Thais then

I find them very intelligent people just not equipped with the tools needed, a lot of them

[Marc26]

  On 8/13/2023 at 10:50 PM, KhaoYai said:

Well we wouldn't want too many of them becoming more educated - especially those from the poorer regions, would we? We don't want them realising they have been 'shafted' for years do we?

And that point has been proved several times over the years - students have been the front runners in most of the anti government protests.

Change will come, it does everywhere eventually but I don't see it on Thailand's horizon yet.

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Thats exactly what I have been saying in all my posts

It's all by design 

[Metoo]

"They just haven't been given the tools to expand that intelligence, well a lot of them"

Pretty much all younger Thais now have the tools at their disposal.....it's called a mobile computer (phone) that has access to all of the worlds information.

I think this is why we are now seeing the huge swing to the MFP.

At last people have access to information they never had before.

The dinosaurs will be extinct soon, and the younger generation will make sure this happens.

Just a matter of time.

[Marc26]

  On 8/14/2023 at 12:23 AM, Metoo said:

"They just haven't been given the tools to expand that intelligence, well a lot of them"

Pretty much all younger Thais now have the tools at their disposal.....it's called a mobile computer (phone) that has access to all of the worlds information.

I think this is why we are now seeing the huge swing to the MFP.

At last people have access to information they never had before.

The dinosaurs will be extinct soon, and the younger generation will make sure this happens.

Just a matter of time.

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My stepson still deals with such asinine shit in University there that doesn't go on in the West 

[Karolyn]

  On 8/6/2023 at 9:00 PM, cowslip said:

why do people keep rolling out this meaningless cliche?

Thailand was invaded loads of times and the only reason they weren't colonised in the 19th C was because the French and British (and other western powers) wanted it that way. Thailand was forced to give away their own colonies and change all sorts of stuff because the western powers told them t to, they were colonised in everything but name.

...and how does this affect the fact they are not a democracy?

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The colonising Euros were often democratic or liberal. Makes you wonder why democracy is axiomatically desorable: it doesn't guarantee good behavior.

Ideas arise from history. These nexuses of ideas are endemic to ethnic Western Europeans - they were even alien, in Germany/Prussia, Italy, and Spain. If a country like Thailand accepts a foreign ideology, it must be under foreign pressure. QED 

[Khunmark]

  On 8/13/2023 at 3:07 PM, KhaoYai said:

Just trying to understand why this argument about history and colonisation is relevant?

The fact is that Thailand has never had a democracy, despite what those in power call it. What they do have is just a joke.  A general who lead a coup, declares he's returning the country to democracy and holding elections, hangs up his uniform, puts on a jacket and declares that he's running in that election - and we all know who won. We all knew who was going to win anyway!

Then said general Prime Minister get together with his buddies and tells them, "look lads, we can't keep getting away with these coups, its looking bad abroad but how can we retain power for our lords?"

A 'cunning plan' is hatched - a new constitution is introduced, voted for by a Thai public of whom 90% had no idea what it contained.  That constitution guaranteed that the generals will remain in control forever as they select the 'Senate' - a body that amongst other things, must approve a new government, no matter how many votes a party has received. Thus, nobody who opposes the generals or the masters they serve has a cat in hell's chance of ever being in government. That's how the generals could promise there would be no more coups - they don't need them.

So.....Thai Democracy at risk? I really hope so because what they've had so far is nothing like democracy.  Its just a joke and I doubt I'll ever get my head around how this situation has survived.  In most other countries there would be mass civil disobedience - jeez, France almost had a civil war because the government wants to raise the retirement age!

Perhaps is Buddhism - acceptance of one's position and place in life? I really don't know but as things stand, groups like Move Forward who had policy proposals that threatened the foundation stones that the piggies trough stands on, never had a chance of being in charge.

So it doesn't really matter what went on historically, its today and now that matters and I can't see things changing any time soon.

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History does matter because it frames current situation in a cultural context. You mentioned France as a juxtaposition on a civil response to a state action. What occurred in France should come of no surprise to you concerning the French response, given the historic relationship between the French government and her people. Historically context is important because it  informs the behaviour of both state and its people . And the relationship between the French government and its people and the Thai government and its people, from an historical context are polls apart.

[Khunmark]

  On 8/13/2023 at 10:41 PM, KhaoYai said:

I don't think it has any bearing at all in today's Thailand.  Thai politics may include the word 'Democracy' but in reality the country is run by the generals for 5 or 6 wealthy families with one in particular at the head - 'The Elite'. Its all about wealth/power and the retention of it. Following the latest election comedy show, even the least educated Thai citizen will realise that there has never been anything even resembling democracy in Thailand.

Over the years various parties have fought with their opposites to gain the people's votes and become 'the government'.  The winners have been allowed to make minor changes to policy and introduce new laws etc. - provided those laws don't damage 'The Elite'. Whenever any party/person/government has become either too popular or sought to introduce changes that threaten the position of 'The Elite' - they have been brought down by either a coup of some huge invented scandal.

Those parties may believe they held power or may have even been part of the charade but the country has never been run for the good of the people and I can't see that changing any time soon.

Its a form of corruption but at its highest level and we all know how common corruption is in Thailand.

Greed, pure greed.

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Thailand isn’t alone when comes to a dysfunctional democracy. In fact if you were to compare all western governments with the ideals of democracy, they would come up short. There are plenty of examples of undemocratic practices exhibited by them. So democracy can only ever be measured on a sliding scale; more democratic and less democratic. And contrary to Western sensibilities, the citizens of less democratic societies are often overwhelmingly content with the model they have inherited.

[HolyCowCm]

  On 8/13/2023 at 10:50 PM, KhaoYai said:

Well we wouldn't want too many of them becoming more educated - especially those from the poorer regions, would we? We don't want them realising they have been 'shafted' for years do we?

And that point has been proved several times over the years - students have been the front runners in most of the anti government protests.

Change will come, it does everywhere eventually but I don't see it on Thailand's horizon yet.

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My kids are in University here and they are 1000% pro for change but very leery to toe the line on going to any hardcore demonstrations. I have told them up to them but be careful as you know there are snakes in the grass recording everything and everyone and that could come back and bite them or put them under a scope at sometime or the other. I just said you absolutely need to support your beliefs in one way or the other, but also be wise and aware about your surroundings. Dear ole dad is a foreigner and I don't want anything coming back to me as well. Not that I havent went and took a look at the red shirts or the demonstrations here in CM at one time or the other. 

The way I see it the regime sees these kids and the good Thai people as demons protesting against them being insubordinate, and ironically what word lies in the word demonstration? Just a coincidence.

[SnapDragon]

  On 8/13/2023 at 10:41 PM, KhaoYai said:

 Thai politics may include the word 'Democracy' but in reality the country is run by the generals for 5 or 6 wealthy families with one in particular at the head - 'The Elite'. Its all about wealth/power and the retention of it. Following the latest election comedy show, even the least educated Thai citizen will realise that there has never been anything even resembling democracy in Thailand.

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Don't disagree with you; but!!!

In my opinion, the vast majority of Thai people don't know, or care about the workings of their country.

I live in Isaan, and have do so for many years. The people here are a happy lot. True, many live very basically, but will 'progress' make them happier?

When my wife was a youngster, the children of her family had a daily trip to a well; half a kilo away. Now there is running water. For sure that is progress. Same with leccy. But she sometimes  tells me of the happy days of her childhood.

Are the people of Europe happy? Or the UK? Or North America?

People should be treated equally, respectfully and fairly. That should be the aim of any democracy.

[Karolyn]

  On 8/13/2023 at 6:26 PM, Marc26 said:

Really?

I'm not challenging you but I always thought IQ gave an indication of the capacity to learn 

By the way

I do think Thais are overall an intelligent people 

They just haven't been given the tools to expand that intelligence, well a lot of them 

Expand  

You're thinking of the g-factor, or general intelligence. Which measures the ability to override instincts and ingrained habits, and experiment novel solutions.

Thai people have lower average IQ, than do the Chinese or Japanese. Although they descend from two waves of migrants coming out of China. One is the Mon-Khmer who form a language substrate. The other is the Tai-Kadai, who swept through in a volkswanderung, and contributed the Thai languages.

Im not sure why this is. Indigenous Siberians also have high IQ, so it's not urban or rural civilization, makes East Asians smart. And the centers of Shang and Han civilizations, suffered more seasonality than South China. 

Ancient Chinese capitals such as Anyang and Xi'an are considered to have a climate, between semi-arid steppe, and monsoon-influenced humid subtropical. It's true these climates experience subzero tempertures for at least one month of the year, but nothing too severe. Admittedly, snow is very rare in the winters of South China, at latitudes South of the Yangtze, the Tai urheimat, but her climate is still subtropical.

But it's questionable wether racial theories can explain the differences, between northern and southern Mongoloids. (Or Sinodonts and Sundadonts.) Even the earlier expansion of Austro-Asiatic progenitors from China, was recent, taking place in a late stage of prehistory.

[Karolyn]

  On 8/14/2023 at 4:01 AM, Khunmark said:

Thailand isn’t alone when comes to a dysfunctional democracy. In fact if you were to compare all western governments with the ideals of democracy, they would come up short. There are plenty of examples of undemocratic practices exhibited by them. So democracy can only ever be measured on a sliding scale; more democratic and less democratic. And contrary to Western sensibilities, the citizens of less democratic societies are often overwhelmingly content with the model they have inherited.

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The Democratic world is led by the USA, and just look at the USA - because of an election  I mean which political wackos, or their abusive followers, do you like more? All because of freedom of association, and freedom of speech. Without which these people could not aggregate or communicate, before they get the political power to harm or annoy others. 

Under US democracy, politics becomes like religion in a theocracy. You can't suppress bullshit, because all people have a right to an opinion. No further judgement, as to the worth of an opinion, except if enough shreple flock to it. Not surprisingly, the worst elements of mankind, find their resentful voice piece, as described by Nietzsche.

Eventually two wolves and a sheep are deciding whose for dinner, and the wolves hate one another, too. 

[cowslip]

  On 8/14/2023 at 3:20 AM, Karolyn said:

The colonising Euros were often democratic or liberal

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realy where?