Vaccination avoiders

[Riva]

I have yet to hear anyone refer to the vaccines as being like a seat belt and airbag in a car. The former is under even Thai law is mandatory and so must be worn (remembering that if it not and one is injured, the insurance company has the right not to cover the related costs) and the latter is more or less standard these days even in some trucks. So why do people still chose t avoid being vaccinated? 

The vaccines are safe! Plane and simple! Your have a Right to not get vaccinated? Really? You do? How you figure that? Does that mean that you have the right not to wear a seat belt or to rip out the airbags in your car? Nope. But I know some folks think that the vaccines have not been tested and there has not been enough time to make sure that they a really safe. However, they are safe. All medications comes with side effects even the stuff one can buy over the counter in Western Countries (not here as you can pick up almost anything over the counter without a prescription). The important thing to realize is that the present vaccines will not keep you from catching the virus, but will minimize the effects that it has on your system. They will then in turn keep the virus at bay within your body and make it that much harder to be passed onto others. It simply... makes sense to be vaccinated (though I have my own personal doubts regarding the effectiveness of the Chinese varieties).

So, look at the vaccines as a seat belt. For a seat belt will protect you. It will only minimize the physical damage to your body in a crash and so by wearing one increasing your chances of walking away alive. Adding the function of the airbag (ie: a buster shot of AZ or Pfizer, Moderna) will just increase your safety and fro those around you and whom you love.

Those who choose NOT to be vaccinated are simply foolish. They are a clear and present danger to us all and we should all insist that everyone be vaccinated. There really should be no choice..... just as here mask wearing, temperature checks, signing in (okay... not so much out), tracing, tracking (phone/wrist band), etcetera are all mandatory. Our Rights are not in jeopardy! We just must follow the guidelines to stay safe and keep those we love safe.  

The questions revolving around the Thai government putting all their eggs in one basket with regards to the Sinovac vaccine aside, they have to get the ball rolling far faster and cut the usual Thai Red Tape and get AA, Pfiser, and Moderna and even the J&J vaccines into the arms of the population much faster than they are now and most likely will be able to do in the near future.

The entire country's heath is at stake. The Sandbox/es are great opportunities for a very small number of the population. But there is a much bigger county to consider. It should be those other areas that are focused on. It all be done. The Thai people have the capability (at least we should believe that they have).

Okay... my rant is over. Good Morning Thailand... this is topic you should address. Phuket is a wonderful place, but there is far more to Thailand.

[Rip255]

Stopped reading pretty early on in this novel...

[guy]

You are making many assumptions here that are not proven to be true or backed by facts. 

The seat belt analogy makes no sense as seatbelts only protect the wearer not others. 

Note that in the UK, where the vast majority of the population is vaccinated, infection rate is quickly rising, death rate from covid is quickly rising and majority of the deaths are vaccinated, hospitalization is quickly rising and majority of the deaths are vaccinated. 

The idea that vaccinated people are less likely to pass covid to others is not proven to be true yet. If anything vaccinated people are more likely to not wear masks or social distance and less likely to show symptoms, making them potentially more likely to spread it. 

[BlueSphinx]

3 minutes ago, Riva said:

...

Those who choose NOT to be vaccinated are simply foolish. They are a clear and present danger to us all and we should all insist that everyone be vaccinated. There really should be no choice..... just as here mask wearing, temperature checks, signing in (okay... not so much out), tracing, tracking (phone/wrist band), etcetera are all mandatory. Our Rights are not in jeopardy! We just must follow the guidelines to stay safe and keep those we love safe.  

...

Maybe those that are hesitant or downright refusing to fall for the rushed experimental jab, know something that you don't...

It's interesting and tell-tale to note that questions cq resistance re these covid-jabs are highest in circles of medical and scientific professions.

You might find some clues in the articles/studies/contributions posted in the Controversial Covid Corner on this Forum. 

> https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/2081-ccc-the-controversial-covid-corner/

[SickBuffalo]

19 minutes ago, Riva said:

Those who choose NOT to be vaccinated are simply foolish. They are a clear and present danger to us all and we should all insist that everyone be vaccinated. There really should be no choice

Personally, I am against mandatory vaccines, but I equally think it hypocritical when those who do not want to get vaccinated complain bitterly about vaccine passports and the various other ways in which businesses and countries will try to protect others.

We can put all philosophy aside, however, because reality has its own ideas. Delta is so extraordinarily infectious that, by October, the vast majority of people on Earth will either be immune through vaccination or immune the hard way.

The vast majority of people who wanted an effective vaccine will not get one in time. A lot of people are going to get sick, including the vaccinated, but it will be far tougher for the unvaccinated. That is what the vaccine was for, to reduce the severity of the infection.

The next few months will be dramatic but, honestly, we should probably have just got this done and dusted last summer and not waited for the vaccines.

[gummy]

39 minutes ago, Riva said:

I have yet to hear anyone refer to the vaccines as being like a seat belt and airbag in a car. The former is under even Thai law is mandatory and so must be worn (remembering that if it not and one is injured, the insurance company has the right not to cover the related costs) and the latter is more or less standard these days even in some trucks. So why do people still chose t avoid being vaccinated? 

The vaccines are safe! Plane and simple! Your have a Right to not get vaccinated? Really? You do? How you figure that? Does that mean that you have the right not to wear a seat belt or to rip out the airbags in your car? Nope. But I know some folks think that the vaccines have not been tested and there has not been enough time to make sure that they a really safe. However, they are safe. All medications comes with side effects even the stuff one can buy over the counter in Western Countries (not here as you can pick up almost anything over the counter without a prescription). The important thing to realize is that the present vaccines will not keep you from catching the virus, but will minimize the effects that it has on your system. They will then in turn keep the virus at bay within your body and make it that much harder to be passed onto others. It simply... makes sense to be vaccinated (though I have my own personal doubts regarding the effectiveness of the Chinese varieties).

So, look at the vaccines as a seat belt. For a seat belt will protect you. It will only minimize the physical damage to your body in a crash and so by wearing one increasing your chances of walking away alive. Adding the function of the airbag (ie: a buster shot of AZ or Pfizer, Moderna) will just increase your safety and fro those around you and whom you love.

Those who choose NOT to be vaccinated are simply foolish. They are a clear and present danger to us all and we should all insist that everyone be vaccinated. There really should be no choice..... just as here mask wearing, temperature checks, signing in (okay... not so much out), tracing, tracking (phone/wrist band), etcetera are all mandatory. Our Rights are not in jeopardy! We just must follow the guidelines to stay safe and keep those we love safe.  

The questions revolving around the Thai government putting all their eggs in one basket with regards to the Sinovac vaccine aside, they have to get the ball rolling far faster and cut the usual Thai Red Tape and get AA, Pfiser, and Moderna and even the J&J vaccines into the arms of the population much faster than they are now and most likely will be able to do in the near future.

The entire country's heath is at stake. The Sandbox/es are great opportunities for a very small number of the population. But there is a much bigger county to consider. It should be those other areas that are focused on. It all be done. The Thai people have the capability (at least we should believe that they have).

Okay... my rant is over. Good Morning Thailand... this is topic you should address. Phuket is a wonderful place, but there is far more to Thailand.

Well welcome and a significant rant for your 1st post. However, irrespective of the merits of your rant just take one step back and consider this.  If your Mother had suddenly just passed away after receiving a covid 19 vaccination, then irrespective of what you were told by the authorities, would there be any doubt in your  mind is was simply bad luck for your Mother to die ?  Would it put you or other family members off having your/their own vaccinations ?  Now I am not saying it is wrong not to have a vaccination but Just putting further a potential viewpoint for your further consideration, as the argument is never one sided.

[heist]

1 hour ago, Riva said:

So why do people still chose t avoid being vaccinated? 

Because I'm not in a high-risk category nor do I live in a densely populated area and with vaccines in such short supply I'd rather not take one away from someone who needs it more than I do. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by heist

[Shark]

Spoiler

I'm 'pro' vaccination for all ages. We don't want kids to spread it and we want the Zulu variant to not even exist.

Everyone with common curtsy and decency would if not only for his own family also choose to vaccinate. I've vaccinated not for myself, I think I'll be fine fighting the virus of myself but rather those who can't. I'm less likely to spread the virus once I'm vaccinated then when I remain un-vaccinated.

Just my $0,02 business as usual so many people here preach for none vaccination or vaccines which will never be Generally Available ANY time soon.

Also the Oh I'm so scared to get a combination of Sinovac/AstraZeneca, dude 10% protection is better then 0 and it's pretty sure that even this cocktail will give you more then 10% even against Delta.

[BlueSphinx]

5 minutes ago, Shark said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm 'pro' vaccination for all ages. We don't want kids to spread it and we want the Zulu variant to not even exist.

Everyone with common curtsy and decency would if not only for his own family also choose to vaccinate. I've vaccinated not for myself, I think I'll be fine fighting the virus of myself but rather those who can't. I'm less likely to spread the virus once I'm vaccinated then when I remain un-vaccinated.

Just my $0,02 business as usual so many people here preach for none vaccination or vaccines which will never be Generally Available ANY time soon.

Also the Oh I'm so scared to get a combination of Sinovac/AstraZeneca, dude 10% protection is better then 0 and it's pretty sure that even this cocktail will give you more then 10% even against Delta.

@Shark > Everyone with common curtsy and decency would if not only for his own family also choose to vaccinate.

Not me, I actually enjoy 'killing grandma'

[snapdragon]

3 hours ago, Riva said:

The vaccines are safe! Plane and simple!

No vaccine that was ever developed is safe.

These 'vaccines', are not vaccines at all, but experimental gene therapies. There was supposedly some animal testing on rats, cats and ferrets, but allegedly they mostly died some time after. Can't really get accurate details on this. But long vaxxes is the real danger. The body actually devouring itself.

This autumn, in the northern hemisphere, there will be far more danger of the vaxxer's bodies attacking themselves, than there ever will be to the un-vaxxesd.

[Shark]

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

Not me, I actually enjoy 'killing grandma'

poor grandma.

[BlueSphinx]

25 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

... Can't really get accurate details on this. But long vaxxes is the real danger. The body actually devouring itself.

This autumn, in the northern hemisphere, there will be far more danger of the vaxxer's bodies attacking themselves, than there ever will be to the un-vaxxed.

Hi Snap, although you are fully correct, you will of course be crucified for that 'immune system attacking your own system' statement by the vaccine-enthusiasts.  I can hear already the cries for providing 'factual evidence/studies' that prove it.  Well, I know I came across it in one or two of the multifold scientific papers I read on the subject, and will post the evidence on the Controversial Covid Corner.

Note: My quote that I actually enjoy 'killing grandma' was of course a sarcastic remark to address the aggressive Shark-nonsense.

Edited July 19, 2021 by BlueSphinx

[uanmak]

4 hours ago, guy said:

You are making many assumptions here that are not proven to be true or backed by facts. 

The seat belt analogy makes no sense as seatbelts only protect the wearer not others. 

This is not really true. If you do a head-on crash and you wear no belt, your body will be projected thru the windshield and you can kill somebody else on the scene (either the occupants of the other cars, or some passer-by). Probable, but not impossible. At the same time, a vaccine protects mainly who gets it, but also those who don't want thru the mechanism of herd immunity.

4 hours ago, guy said:

Note that in the UK, where the vast majority of the population is vaccinated, infection rate is quickly rising, death rate from covid is quickly rising and majority of the deaths are vaccinated, hospitalization is quickly rising and majority of the deaths are vaccinated. 

I doubt this is true for fully vaccinated people. If you have any solid data to support this we may see, otherwise I stand with the current ZOE study in UK that clearly demonstrate that most of hospitalised people who are either partly or fully vaccinated have very mild symptoms, conversely unvaccianted people are at risk. The moajority of deaths for vaccinated people is commonly reported among novax telegram groups based on some numbers from israel which are not proven, so you may need to revise you position. Besides, in absolute term the deaths among (partly) vaccinated people can be bigger because the majority of people in UK have vaccines, but seen in relation with the cohorts vaccinated vs non-vaccinated, the % are greatly toward the last one.

4 hours ago, guy said:

The idea that vaccinated people are less likely to pass covid to others is not proven to be true yet. If anything vaccinated people are more likely to not wear masks or social distance and less likely to show symptoms, making them potentially more likely to spread it. 

The idea that vaccinated people are less likely to pass any kind of disease to others is a basic concept of immunology, already proven from the beginning of the XX century.

[snapdragon]

16 minutes ago, uanmak said:

The idea that vaccinated people are less likely to pass any kind of disease to others is a basic concept of immunology, already proven from the beginning of the XX century.

Cannot agree with this statement.

Point me to a paper where this is proved.

[Faraday]

27 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

Cannot agree with this statement.

Point me to a paper where this is proved.

Don't wait up...

[NCC1701A]

5 hours ago, Riva said:

I have yet to hear anyone refer to the vaccines as being like a seat belt and airbag in a car.

there is a good reason. 

[ExpatPattaya]

2 hours ago, snapdragon said:

This autumn, in the northern hemisphere, there will be far more danger of the vaxxer's bodies attacking themselves, than there ever will be to the un-vaxxesd.

Not vaccinating your loved ones and friends is a good way to have more skeletons on display this Halloween 

[BlueSphinx]

17 minutes ago, ExpatPattaya said:

Not vaccinating your loved ones and friends is a good way to have more skeletons on display this Halloween 

That's what the Unholy Trinity like you to believe...

[snapdragon]

20 minutes ago, ExpatPattaya said:

Not vaccinating your loved ones and friends is a good way to have more skeletons on display this Halloween 

I guess you are in agreement with the world C-19 vaxx programme.

Why not take a look at some of the evidence against vaxxes on 'CCC Controversal Covid Corner'?

Or listen to Dr Vernon Coleman; Dr Sherri Tenpenny; Dr Delores Cahill. These people are at the top of the game. Why not take a look?

[BlueSphinx]

15 minutes ago, snapdragon said:

I guess you are in agreement with the world C-19 vaxx programme.

Why not take a look at some of the evidence against vaxxes on 'CCC Controversal Covid Corner'?

Or listen to Dr Vernon Coleman; Dr Sherri Tenpenny; Dr Delores Cahill. These people are at the top of the game. Why not take a look?

> https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/2081-ccc-the-controversial-covid-corner/

 

[guy]

7 hours ago, Shark said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm 'pro' vaccination for all ages. We don't want kids to spread it and we want the Zulu variant to not even exist.

Everyone with common curtsy and decency would if not only for his own family also choose to vaccinate. I've vaccinated not for myself, I think I'll be fine fighting the virus of myself but rather those who can't. I'm less likely to spread the virus once I'm vaccinated then when I remain un-vaccinated.

Just my $0,02 business as usual so many people here preach for none vaccination or vaccines which will never be Generally Available ANY time soon.

Also the Oh I'm so scared to get a combination of Sinovac/AstraZeneca, dude 10% protection is better then 0 and it's pretty sure that even this cocktail will give you more then 10% even against Delta.

Taking a mix of vaccines is not recommended, this is dangerous and has not been properly tested. Although rigorously tested, the vaccines are emergency use in the first place which means they are "unapproved" and only being used because of the circumstances.

There is no proof that a vaccinated individual is less likely to spread the virus, it is theorized that because viral load can be lower in a vaccinated person the likely hood of spread could be lower. 

In the UK, where they have a very high vax rate of almost 70% with full vax, new infections are sky rocketing. The same thing is starting to happen in the US as well. So it remains to be seen how well the vaccines curb infection rates, especially of the new variants. 

[guy]

5 hours ago, uanmak said:

The idea that vaccinated people are less likely to pass any kind of disease to others is a basic concept of immunology, already proven from the beginning of the XX century.

Why then are new covid cases surging to near all time highs in the UK, where 68% of the population is fully vaccinated? 

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

[guy]

5 hours ago, uanmak said:

This is not really true. If you do a head-on crash and you wear no belt, your body will be projected thru the windshield and you can kill somebody else on the scene (either the occupants of the other cars, or some passer-by). Probable, but not impossible.

[guy]

5 hours ago, uanmak said:

I doubt this is true for fully vaccinated people. If you have any solid data to support this we may see, otherwise I stand with the current ZOE study in UK that clearly demonstrate that most of hospitalised people who are either partly or fully vaccinated have very mild symptoms, conversely unvaccianted people are at risk. The moajority of deaths for vaccinated people is commonly reported among novax telegram groups based on some numbers from israel which are not proven, so you may need to revise you position. Besides, in absolute term the deaths among (partly) vaccinated people can be bigger because the majority of people in UK have vaccines, but seen in relation with the cohorts vaccinated vs non-vaccinated, the % are greatly toward the last one.

 

My point is vaccines may not have so much impact on reducing infection rates, as cases are rising dramatically among populations with high vaccination rates such as the UK, to near all time highs.

The UK is very near the 70% of the total population being vaccinated and new infections are almost as high as they were in the peak pre-vaccine roll-out.

This makes it hard to believe that the vaccines reduce infection rates so dramatically (or at all) like the OP states. 

Vaccines do seem to be successful in reducing death and serious side effects. 

Non-the-less the majority of people dying from covid in the UK recently have been vaccinated. "25 June, that figure had risen to 43% (50 of 117), with the majority (60%) having received at least one dose."

Of course much more data is needed to draw a reasonable conclusion. Ages of new infections. Ages of new deaths. Do the death vaccine percentages align with the infection percentages. Etc. 

Sources:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated

[guy]

28 minutes ago, guy said:

This is not really true. If you do a head-on crash and you wear no belt, your body will be projected thru the windshield and you can kill somebody else on the scene (either the occupants of the other cars, or some passer-by). Probable, but not impossible.

OP seems to think most no-belt car accident ends this way :)