All Covid restrictions lifted in England as experts warn of disastrous consequences

[Thaiger]

As the government lifts all Covid-19 restrictions in England from today, only time will tell if the move was the right one. PM Boris Johnson has forged ahead with, “freedom day”, despite a surge in infections that could threaten the country’s National Health Service. The government’s stance on the matter is that the success of the vaccine rollout will mean fewer hospitalisations and deaths. Despite strong condemnation from opposition politicians and medical experts, from today all indoor venues can return to full capacity and nightclubs can re-open. The legal mandate on wearing face masks is also being dropped. The Bangkok […]

The post All Covid restrictions lifted in England as experts warn of disastrous consequences appeared first on Thaiger News.

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[Remi]

Why do so called experts predict doom, as yet none of their prediction have come to fruition, yet they are quick to have their say, a need to be noticed echoes here.

When I read information outside the government narrative from people who have only one concern which is pass on information that will help people I do not here the same kinds of concern.

Take case of ivermectin it springs to mind.

The experts said it should not be used for Covid, yet we have seen world wide how it has been a life saver in India South Africa and Brazil not to mention other countries now .

So what are we afraid of ?

New variants has become a buzz word ,

But what does it mean ?

It seems like the word has been dramatized and made to seem something to be afraid of, yet greatest numbers of deaths came at the start of this situation which is a  true behavior for any virus infection.

The varients we have been told creat more transmissions, is that true or does more testing show more transmissions ?

Daily numbers given to covid show more transmission but no greater death rates.h

So why do we not highlight other illnesses in the same way to give us a comparison on the number of people who die every day.

??? 

[SickBuffalo]

They don't have much choice. The British people are done with this now.

What Boris gets, that Health czars don't, is that there is no way to enforce a lockdown if even a large minority of the people are no longer willing to cooperate. The whole things falls apart when some are obeying and some are not.

People were surprisingly compliant last year. They mostly accepted the notion that it was necessary to stay inside for two weeks to "protect the NHS". It turned to be a little longer than that.

The UK will be hit hard by Delta, but that is just what has to happen. Almost everyone will be catching this thing over the next few months. The vaccinated will get through it okay, they won't need to be hospitalized. The unvaccinated will have a rougher ride, but they will be mostly young. Very few fat, diabetic, old, or otherwise vulnerable will have been stupid enough not to get vaccinated. There will be far fewer deaths than that pillock Neil Ferguson is predicting.

For a few months, other countries will close their borders to the UK, and the EU will make a big song and dance about how reckless the British are.

By October, however, the new natural immunity of the recovered, along with the acquired immunity of the vaccinated, will act as an effective block on spread and life can finally return to normal. Eventually, other countries will have to bite the bullet and do the same thing.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by SickBuffalo

[SuzyFakeNames]

18 minutes ago, Remi said:

Why do so called experts predict doom, as yet none of their prediction have come to fruition, yet they are quick to have their say, a need to be noticed echoes here.

When I read information outside the government narrative from people who have only one concern which is pass on information that will help people I do not here the same kinds of concern.

Take case of ivermectin it springs to mind.

The experts said it should not be used for Covid, yet we have seen world wide how it has been a life saver in India South Africa and Brazil not to mention other countries now .

So what are we afraid of ?

New variants has become a buzz word ,

But what does it mean ?

It seems like the word has been dramatized and made to seem something to be afraid of, yet greatest numbers of deaths came at the start of this situation which is a  true behavior for any virus infection.

The varients we have been told creat more transmissions, is that true or does more testing show more transmissions ?

Daily numbers given to covid show more transmission but no greater death rates.h

So why do we not highlight other illnesses in the same way to give us a comparison on the number of people who die every day.

??? 

Are you a scientist?

[EdwardV]

8 minutes ago, SickBuffalo said:

Eventually, other countries will have to bite the bullet and do the same thing.

 

America is currently headed down that same path. Only not by design or choice, just by circumstance. We are going through an “unvaccinated pandemic” right now as the Delta variant is scooping up all those who decided not to get vaccinated. Almost to a person those being hospitalized are unvaccinated. That even applies to the vast majority of those catching the virus. Some areas like LA county are requiring masks while indoors again but that’s it. 

[Guevara]

24 minutes ago, SickBuffalo said:

They don't have much choice. The British people are done with this now.

What Boris gets, that Health czars don't, is that there is no way to enforce a lockdown if even a large minority of the people are no longer willing to cooperate. The whole things falls apart when some are obeying and some are not.

People were surprisingly compliant last year. They mostly accepted the notion that it was necessary to stay inside for two weeks to "protect the NHS". It turned to be a little longer than that.

The UK will be hit hard by Delta, but that is just what has to happen. Almost everyone will be catching this thing over the next few months. The vaccinated will get through it okay, they won't need to be hospitalized. The unvaccinated will have a rougher ride, but they will be mostly young. Very few fat, diabetic, old, or otherwise vulnerable will have been stupid enough not to get vaccinated. There will be far fewer deaths than that pillock Neil Ferguson is predicting.

For a few months, other countries will close their borders to the UK, and the EU will make a big song and dance about how reckless the British are.

By October, however, the new natural immunity of the recovered, along with the acquired immunity of the vaccinated, will act as an effective block on spread and life can finally return to normal. Eventually, other countries will have to bite the bullet and do the same thing.

 

With close to 90% of the UK having received one jab (not Sinovac) and close to 70% received 2 jabs, it is as you rightly say time to bite the bullet.

Things may well get worse initially but over the next few months the positive cases should decrease and death rates likewise. The potential fly in the ointment is the Beta variant which reduces the efficacy of vaccinations currently in use.

[BlueSphinx]

24 minutes ago, SickBuffalo said:

...
The UK will be hit hard by Delta, but that is just what has to happen. Almost everyone will be catching this thing over the next few months. The vaccinated will get through it okay, they won't need to be hospitalized. The unvaccinated will have a rougher ride, but they will be mostly young. Very few fat, diabetic, old, or otherwise vulnerable will have been stupid enough not to get vaccinated. There will be far fewer deaths than that pillock Neil Ferguson is predicting.
...

Hi @SickBuffalo, I gave your post a Like and I agree with most of your reasoning.  Except for > The vaccinated will get through it okay, they won't need to be hospitalized. 

We have to see how it pans out and whether the now compromised immune-systems of the vaccinated, will indeed be able to keep their owners from hospitalization.  That is, if they are not already there to be treated for the adverse vaccine-effects.

[AlexPTY]

yeah, he should've gotten sandboxes instead, it's safe and secure

[Soidog]

9 minutes ago, Guevara said:

With close to 90% of the UK having received one jab (not Sinovac) and close to 70% received 2 jabs, it is as you rightly say time to bite the bullet.

I agree with many of the positive comments made here and the figures you quoted are correct for the adult population. However, just to be clear on these statistics quoted, and bearing in mind these numbers are often used to claim the mysterious “herd immunity” which is 70-75% % of the entire population vaccinated. Also consider the U.K. population is approximately 67 million people. 
 

46.3 Million have had a first dose. That’s 70% of the population and approx 90% of the adult population. 

36 million have had both doses which is 53% of the population and about 72% of the adult population. 

On top of this there will be some that are unvaccinated but had the virus and hence have antibodies. It’s difficult to find accurate data on unvaccinated but had Covid, though this must add a few percentage  

Therefore the U.K. is still short of herd immunity (70-75%) in that it has around 55% of its population fully vaccinated or have antibodies. 
 

It is also worth bearing in mind when looking to how big a task Thailand is facing, that the U.K. has been vaccinating at high rates every day since early January with high quality vaccines (mainly Pfizer and Oxford-AZ). Even after nearly 7 months, it’s still short of this much coveted herd immunity figure. 
 

Next two months will be interesting times in the U.K. as elsewhere with this virus. Either the doomsayers will be celebrating they “told you so”, or they will quietly return to their bunkers waiting for the next opportunity to divide society. 

[annoynimous]

I hope Delta is the peaked level of mutation for this virus, maybe the UK scientists know something we don't?

[SickBuffalo]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

America is currently headed down that same path. Only not by design or choice, just by circumstance.

If they arrive at the same place, does it matter whether or not it was by design?

This thing arrived at the peak of the authoritarian moment, with online virtue signalers accorded maximum influence. No politician dared to make the vital point that, as with everything else in society, there has to be a balance between the preservation of life and practicality. Boris Johnson very briefly alluded to such considerations but immediately reversed course when the next day's headline said "BoJo Wants to Kill Grandma".

Now, after 18 months, with the public mostly disillusioned with lockdowns, and with there being less incentive to claim the sky is falling as a way to bludgeon Trump out of office, the media and influencers are finally ready to accept that, at some point, either now or five years from now, we have to bite the bullet, protect the most vulnerable, and let this thing rip.

If I am sitting next to you on a plane, I don't care whether you achieved your immunity by vaccine or the hard way. All I and everyone else on the plane will care about is that you are immune and that you had to show credible proof of that before boarding.

[SickBuffalo]

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

Except for > The vaccinated will get through it okay, they won't need to be hospitalized. 

That does appear to be, overwhelmingly, the case.

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

We have to see how it pans out and whether the now compromised immune-systems of the vaccinated, will indeed be able to keep their owners from hospitalization.

I have read a lot on this from the various sides. So far, honestly, I have come across nothing credible that suggests the immune systems of the vaccinated have been anything but bolstered by the vaccines. Theories, yes, of course, lots of theories, but nothing that made much sense and nothing backed up by anything other than anecdotes.

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

That is, if they are not already there to be treated for the adverse vaccine-effects.

I am aware that the media is deliberately not covering the cases that are happening but, equally, I have seen many riding the adverse reactions horse, even on this forum, deliberately exaggerate and mischaracterize sources that anyone with any curiosity could easily check for themselves.

I continue to believe that, in this situation, the vaccines are a godsend. It is, however, insane that we are not also using treatments and prophylactics, such as Ivermectin, that we know are leading to far better outcomes.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by SickBuffalo

[THETRUTH]

1 hour ago, BlueSphinx said:

Hi @SickBuffalo, I gave your post a Like and I agree with most of your reasoning.  Except for > The vaccinated will get through it okay, they won't need to be hospitalized. 

We have to see how it pans out and whether the now compromised immune-systems of the vaccinated, will indeed be able to keep their owners from hospitalization.  That is, if they are not already there to be treated for the adverse vaccine-effects.

Their immune systems are not compromised, no, they are improved. Only retarded antivaccers will require hospitalization, that is unless they will be sectioned first.

[JohninDublin]

Seeing all these comments about the UK, I will say once again, that much of their problems derive from having the most incompetent PM, possibly in UK history, and certainly in my lifetime. And before anybody tries to infer political bias, as far as my lifetime is concerned, the previous least competent holder of the office was Callaghan.

Having Bojo in charge, is like being in an Arctic log cabin in a a blizzard with him telling you to put more wood on the fire to stay warm, while completely ignoring that all the doors and windows are open. Is it any wonder that many got fed up with the restrictions when they were failing to pay dividends due to this incompetence.

Yesterday, the UK, which has 0.9% of the world's population, accounted for 11% of all new infections. That is 12X the per capita rate for the rest of the planet. Today, nearly all restrictions will be lifted in the UK. It's as if we seem to think that "winning" in the war on CV  is about which country can hurt itself the most.

[Kodiak100]

One of the biggest problems we have here in the UK (despite record vaccination figures across all age ranges) is a disturbing and widespread willingness on the part of a large section of the British public to not just go along with Covid restrictions, but to voluntarily continue them, even when they are no longer mandated by law.

For example, face masks. As from today (19th July 2021) it is my understanding that all legal requirements to wear a face mask have been abolished by our Government. People in the UK are no longer required to wear a face mask by law. But, of course, there are exceptions.

A vast number of people have quickly discovered that their employer would 'prefer' them to wear their face masks at work (even though this request is not legally enforceable). Slippery, huh? What does an employee who does not wish to wear a face mask do? Say 'no' and hope they do not get the sack for 'putting their colleagues at risk of infection' because they will not wear a (non-mandatory) face mask..?

A legal challenge to this kind of social pressure, peer-group coercion, and employer bullying is probably going to be necessary to end this sort of thing.

[pascal]

very bizzzzzzare , some country try to minimise the spread some other seems to do the opposite. definitely nobody talks the same language in this world. Scientists said this since the beginning, the vaccin won't be the solution on it s own, and UK's Pm release everybody ........ guess what this pandemic it is here for a long time though ............ 

[Guevara]

7 minutes ago, Kodiak100 said:

One of the biggest problems we have here in the UK (despite record vaccination figures across all age ranges) is a disturbing and widespread willingness on the part of a large section of the British public to not just go along with Covid restrictions, but to voluntarily continue them, even when they are no longer mandated by law.

For example, face masks. As from today (19th July 2021) it is my understanding that all legal requirements to wear a face mask have been abolished by our Government. People in the UK are no longer required to wear a face mask by law. But, of course, there are exceptions.

A vast number of people have quickly discovered that their employer would 'prefer' them to wear their face masks at work (even though this request is not legally enforceable). Slippery, huh? What does an employee who does not wish to wear a face mask do? Say 'no' and hope they do not get the sack for 'putting their colleagues at risk of infection' because they will not wear a (non-mandatory) face mask..?

A legal challenge to this kind of social pressure, peer-group coercion, and employer bullying is probably going to be necessary to end this sort of thing.

To wear or not to wear has created a grey area but interestingly, I had a walk into town earlier today and found I would guess at least 75% of people entering shops, using the bus interchange and food outlets still wearing masks. The few people I spoke with said it was a personal thing and felt more comfortable and responsible wearing it for the time being. It will be interesting to see if this continues for any length of time.

[Jerry8888]

Watch these videos and think about Covid 19 for yourself. Chinese proverb: Fear eats up the soul Since I was contaminated with 9 different viruses in the hospital (after surgery) and nobody cared whether I went on it (at home, 5 weeks seriously ill - fever around 42 degrees, swollen lymph nodes on the neck, sweating that the mattress had to be disposed of , Runny nose, sore throat, etc.) after the examination blood collection for 6 months. Statement from KH: You only have a bad cold! Ha, ha, ha, we get fooled with Covid 19 too. What is left behind: faster fatigue - performance decreases, faster out of breath (I have been allergic to asthma for 53 years) Mountain hiking for hours / days is no longer possible. Still NO vaccination with experimental medicine!

Part 1 and 2

https://www.servustv.com/allgemein/v/aa-27juub3a91w11/

https://www.servustv.com/aktuelles/v/aa-28a3dbyxh1w11/

[Jerry8888]

The light masks only make sense if someone is sick (sniffing, coughing) that is, has a cold, just like in Asia.
It's all nonsense in the fresh air (unless you're sick).
Here in Germany there was no big wave of colds or flu this year, nobody sniffed or coughed in the tram, bus or underground train. Why? because of the masks and reduced travel. But the home office makes people fat and comfortable, and this results in even more illnesses in the long term.
You scare people. like now with Covid 19.
Even here in D there are still enough stupid people who wear the FFP2 masks for hours (days ??).
Why not use the tried and tested 5 drugs (e.g. ivermectin, budesonide, hydroxychloroquine) that are available for illness with Covid? see Mexico etc.
 It is no longer about health, but about achieving political goals. And a lot of money, of course!
Why do you denigrate respected virologists, doctors, epidemiologists or take them to court? Doctors who have cared for the well-being and health of people and developed vaccines for decades !! Even judges are put under pressure.
One has always made fear to achieve goals of political importance, see the world wars, it was not the people who instigated them but the politicians - more power, more greed.
That is the decisive factor, not the individual citizen.
Everyone is responsible for themselves, who signs for an operation, who signs for a vaccination, etc.
If something goes wrong then nobody is liable or it is denied.
It's always the problem of those who have signed that they want it.

[uanmak]

Silent post

Edited July 19, 2021 by uanmak

[Soidog]

2 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

Seeing all these comments about the UK, I will say once again, that much of their problems derive from having the most incompetent PM, possibly in UK history, and certainly in my lifetime. And before anybody tries to infer political bias, as far as my lifetime is concerned, the previous least competent holder of the office was Callaghan.

Having Bojo in charge, is like being in an Arctic log cabin in a a blizzard with him telling you to put more wood on the fire to stay warm, while completely ignoring that all the doors and windows are open. Is it any wonder that many got fed up with the restrictions when they were failing to pay dividends due to this incompetence.

Yesterday, the UK, which has 0.9% of the world's population, accounted for 11% of all new infections. That is 12X the per capita rate for the rest of the planet. Today, nearly all restrictions will be lifted in the UK. It's as if we seem to think that "winning" in the war on CV  is about which country can hurt itself the most.

@johninDubin. I’m not going to disagree with Boris being incompetent and he will surely pay the political price for all this. But I will contest the 11% claim. It’s 11% of all recorded cases. It’s not surprising that the U.K. has massively more reported cases as it’s doing a hell of a lot more tests each day than many countries. 
 

If they wanted to do as some countries do and half the tests, guess what? They could cut their infection rates by 50% overnight. Fantastic leadership that is. Not! 
 

More tests = More cases 

Also,  just to highlight a massive difference to places like Thailand. I’m in the U.K. and I have more rapid flow tests than I know what to do with. My work requires me to take two tests per week. The government are handing them out like confetti. In Thailand they are selling a box of 25 for over 8,000 baht a box. That’s over 300 baht each test. How many people will spend money like that and record the results on line as they do in the U.K. all for free? Sorry, but you are comparing Apples and Bananas I’m afraid. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Soidog
Additional thought !!

[ThaiFoodGuy]

1 hour ago, Guevara said:

The few people I spoke with said it was a personal thing and felt more comfortable and responsible wearing it for the time being.

I believe it's tribal at this point. It's the flag of their people. Here's an example:
https://twitter.com/davidhogg111/status/1393191013808754688?s=20

[JohninDublin]

25 minutes ago, Soidog said:

@johninDubin. I’m not going to disagree with Boris being incompetent and he will surely pay the political price for all this. But I will contest the 11% claim. It’s 11% of all recorded cases. It’s not surprising that the U.K. has massively more reported cases as it’s doing a hell of a lot more tests each day than many countries. 
 

If they wanted to do as some countries do and half the tests, guess what? They could cut their infection rates by 50% overnight. Fantastic leadership that is. Not! 
 

More tests = More cases 

Also,  just to highlight a massive difference to places like Thailand. I’m in the U.K. and I have more rapid flow tests than I know what to do with. My work requires me to take two tests per week. The government are handing them out like confetti. In Thailand they are selling a box of 25 for over 8,000 baht a box. That’s over 300 baht each test. How many people will spend money like that and record the results on line as they do in the U.K. all for free? Sorry, but you are comparing Apples and Bananas I’m afraid. 

Your final para really has nothing to to do with the issue. Is Phuket an Island that has secured it's borders as best as it can and is rapidly detecting imported cases of CV? Did you UK do the same? I can recall Shaps being asked months the world going into lockdown, being asked why the UK borders were still not being used to defend against CV, and his reply: "Because the virus is already here"? 

It is difficult to debate this issue when the basis of your rebuttal is that the figures are probably wrong. You may be right. Nevertheless, the UK got cases down to a 7 day rolling average of 2k cases a day. Now we are seeing reports in media of 97-99% of all new infections are Delta Variant from a rolling seven day average of 44k cases. These cases started to appear very swiftly after Bojo gave Indians 96 hours to return home or face hotel lockdown. All they needed to do was to produce negative pre-flight PCR test to board the plane, and when they arrived home, none of these certs were challenged. Coming from a country that is known for medical corruption, in the same way that you question what are the true numbers being reported, I would question how many of these people even took the test, never mind passed it? Do you think that it was pure coincidence or just bad luck that we suddenly became the world epicentre for Delta Variant?

If you look at all the Island nations on the planet with a population of over 1 mill, the UK finishes last in just about every metric with the exception of testing and vax roll outs. Cyprus which has the second worst per capita death toll, does surpass us for testing, so there is merit in your claim about testing.

But take a look at all the other Island nations who have high testing rates (min 1 per capita) and compare per capita rates. The UK has tested per capita, 3.4x Has an 8% infection rate and fatality rate of about 1890 per mill. Cyprus: 7.3X, Infections 7.4%. Fatality 316. Singapore 2.5x/1%/6.

Denmark, not an island, is the most tested country in the world. 12.7/5.3/437. If more tests = more cases why when the Dane's test 4X as often as the UK, have they only detected 70% of the cases per capita that we have?

My point is and remains that the UK's response to this has hardly ever been anything other than shambolic. I don't see that you and I will agree, but I genuinely believe that even if we were all reporting to the same standards, the UK stats would still be deplorable.

 

[Soidog]

14 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

Your final para really has nothing to to do with the issue. Is Phuket an Island that has secured it's borders as best as it can and is rapidly detecting imported cases of CV? Did you UK do the same? I can recall Shaps being asked months the world going into lockdown, being asked why the UK borders were still not being used to defend against CV, and his reply: "Because the virus is already here"? 

It is difficult to debate this issue when the basis of your rebuttal is that the figures are probably wrong. You may be right. Nevertheless, the UK got cases down to a 7 day rolling average of 2k cases a day. Now we are seeing reports in media of 97-99% of all new infections are Delta Variant from a rolling seven day average of 44k cases. These cases started to appear very swiftly after Bojo gave Indians 96 hours to return home or face hotel lockdown. All they needed to do was to produce negative pre-flight PCR test to board the plane, and when they arrived home, none of these certs were challenged. Coming from a country that is known for medical corruption, in the same way that you question what are the true numbers being reported, I would question how many of these people even took the test, never mind passed it? Do you think that it was pure coincidence or just bad luck that we suddenly became the world epicentre for Delta Variant?

If you look at all the Island nations on the planet with a population of over 1 mill, the UK finishes last in just about every metric with the exception of testing and vax roll outs. Cyprus which has the second worst per capita death toll, does surpass us for testing, so there is merit in your claim about testing.

But take a look at all the other Island nations who have high testing rates (min 1 per capita) and compare per capita rates. The UK has tested per capita, 3.4x Has an 8% infection rate and fatality rate of about 1890 per mill. Cyprus: 7.3X, Infections 7.4%. Fatality 316. Singapore 2.5x/1%/6.

Denmark, not an island, is the most tested country in the world. 12.7/5.3/437. If more tests = more cases why when the Dane's test 4X as often as the UK, have they only detected 70% of the cases per capita that we have?

My point is and remains that the UK's response to this has hardly ever been anything other than shambolic. I don't see that you and I will agree, but I genuinely believe that even if we were all reporting to the same standards, the UK stats would still be deplorable.

I agree that more could and should have been done. I’m not debating that point at all and my main rebuttal isn’t the number is wrong, they are just not reported the same and hence comparison is difficult. 
 

As for Phuket and U.K., It’s not as simple as not allowing a load of “foreigners” in to your country (Phuket) compared to hundreds, if not thousands of U.K. nationals returning from India and other countries. If these were Indian nationals then fine. But many were born and bred and hold valid British passports. Now, we could have done what Thailand did and insist on quarantine for returning nationals, but the scale of British out of the country compared to Thais would have been many times more.  
 

When you say the U.K. comes last in every metric with the exception of the vaccination (invention, development and production) and roll out. Well be fair, that’s at least half the problem the U.K. is near the top on isn’t it? And when you compare it to every other island nation over 1 million, surely that’s an unfair comparison. There are over 1 million live in Greater Manchester alone. 12 Million in Greater London. As this is a volumetric issue, shouldn’t we look for an island nation with at least 50% of the U.K. (34 million). And shouldn’t we also consider population density as well as this thing spreads by air?

 
Taiwan 24 million and smaller land mass is a reasonable comparison, but again, how many Taiwanese were out of the country looking to get home from India?

Cyprus 1.2 million  

Australia 26 million and massive country

As for Denmark, there are many many reasons why it’s a success  including geographical, demographics and political.    Denmark is a nation consisting of many islands of which 50-70ish are populated  it has a relatively small land border with Germany 68km long. The Northern Irish border alone is nearly 500km and try locking that down and we know what that can cause? If you don’t think that’s a factor then compare it to a small place like Switzerland that borders 5 countries. 
The population density is also low in Denmark compared to the U.K.  

Finally I’d say the Danes respect their government more than the U.K. does. As an example, when schools were closed, people were told they would close in 4 days time but the government asked people to do the right thing and keep children away. The very next day the schools were empty. In the U.K. everyone puts two fingers up at the government. They have always been seen as something to challenge and catch out and distrust. 
 

I could clearly go on and on, but I won’t!! 
 

Just to say. I do not disagree that the U.K. handling of the lockdown stage was poor and could have been a lot better. Boris Johnston has been a weak leader when we needed strength. The development and production and roll out of vaccination has been exemplary to the rest of the world. As for comparisons, we could debate this for years and years, and some people will. But for me my friend, I’ve said enough. Thanks for the debate. I enjoyed it. 

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Jerry8888 said:

Why not use the tried and tested 5 drugs (e.g. ivermectin, budesonide, hydroxychloroquine) that are available for illness with Covid

Because despite what the uninformed say (and if they were informed they wouldn't be saying it) they're either not "tried and tested" or they're tried, tested and failed.

 

If they've been tried and tested, name the trial, show the data.

If not, well .....