Filling in land

[Marc26]

I'm on a few Thai building groups on Facebook 

 

But thought I'd ask her

 

We will be moving to Thailand(well living there 8/9months a year)

Probably move in 6-7 years

 

So starting to look for land 

 

How long should you fill the land in for?

 

And a big question I have 

 

Say we want a 250-300sqm house, for example 

We'd also want room to build a guest house and maybe my "farang cave"

 

Do you just fill in a bunch of land and then what happens to the land that you don't build on?

 

Just landscape area?

[Faz]

Whether you need to landfill will depend on the existing lay of the land and whether it's prone to occasional flooding. There is also the option of raising the house, leaving a void underneath.
Thais usually recommend leaving any raised land to settle for 12 months, before building.
Locals where you intend to build should be able to give you advice.

We're currently renovating an old village house, which sits on a half rai of land (20 mtr x 40 mtr) and extended the house to 9 mtr x 22 mtr (198 sq mtr) and a concreted area for parking, which still leaves more than half the land available to do whatever we want with.
My philosophy is the greater the spare land area, the more maintenance and upkeep it will require.

You may want to check out two topics as an insight;
https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/6162-time-to-build-a-house/page/37/#comment-306741

https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/19276-renovating-an-old-rural-village-house/#comments

 

[KaptainRob]

Fill height depends on the elevation above local water courses and worst possible flood levels (FL).  Most Amphur/Tessaban offices can provide maps and recent data to assist with this.

I prefer to do my own assessment based on local knowledge/advice.  For our 1st house adjacent a khlong which serves water to nearby farms, I was told that 2011 flood water from the Ping river had reached 1km inland but only rose to road level.  I filled to 60cm above road level and ground floor level was 40cm above that = 1m above worst known flooding.  Not only that but I ensured the ground floor (garage/laundry/3rd bedroom) had all electric circuits on a separate breaker in case of future* mega-flooding.

* In typical Thai fashion the local Gov't. has since built a weir BELOW the city which does absolutely nothing to stop the city area from flooding but it has reduced the potential for flooding below the weir.  CBD floods in 2022 was exacerbated due the weir, but our suburb was dry. 

As to the area of fill, ideally you should lift all usable house and oudoor living areas and contour the balance depending on landscape design.   For our 2nd house, on a lake, the land was already 50cm above past FL's and I did not want to lift higher with fill.  I designed the house to be 150cm above ground level which also provides a crawl space below for any possible plumbing maintenance in the future.  The pool did not need to be dug in as deep and the below 'pool-deck' area provided space for all filtration equipment and aircon condensers (hidden behind aluminum grilles.)

[Raugh]

A lot of general questions about soil properties with little to no specific information.

I personally don't have much in the way of knowledge about Thai soil other than one area i looked at (a rai or 2 of rice field) had what appeared to be a sandy clayish soil.

So in general if you are considering a concrete slab on grade along with what appears to be typical precast columns on a 4m x 4m grid with masonry exterior walls and some type of light gauge steel ceiling/roof structure my main concerns would be cracking of the slab due to poor compaction of your added fill.

I have not had a chance to observe or note the depth that footings are placed to support the column grid.

We would all be hard pressed to wing it without the advice of a geotechnical engineer but local building knowledge can suffice for small residential like we are discussing. Obviously Thailand is well versed in how to handle soil mechanics as one look around Bangkok will tell us these folks don't mess about.

If i was going to just "wing it" and hope that 6-7 years of settlement will do the trick i would just have the building area + an extra 50% around it covered with dump truck loads of clean soil. If you were really concerned about settlement cracking and what have you there are numerous methods to handle that.

Dig deep, build up solid.

Also, if you have the funds you could always consult a soils engineer to come up with a plan but you would need to know the size and materials in general of your future build.

 

iirc correctly (sorry i had 1 class in geotechnical engineering a millenia ago) Preloading soil is the term you are looking for if i read your post correctly. In order to increase bearing capacity of the underlying soil.

Here is a simplified explanation link:

https://theconstructor.org/geotechnical/preloading-soil-bearing-capacity/145326/

Of course as inexpensive as things are here you could possibly fill in your land area and have a crew pour a 12" concrete slab on top of that which could be removed prior to construction of your actual residence.

Let that slab settle for a year or two and i would think you would be good to go.

I may be in a similar situation soon but who knows in Thailand lol. Winds of change blow across the landscape like my morning winds. haha

 

[Marc26]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:12 PM, Faz said:

Whether you need to landfill will depend on the existing lay of the land and whether it's prone to occasional flooding. There is also the option of raising the house, leaving a void underneath.
Thais usually recommend leaving any raised land to settle for 12 months, before building.
Locals where you intend to build should be able to give you advice.

We're currently renovating an old village house, which sits on a half rai of land (20 mtr x 40 mtr) and extended the house to 9 mtr x 22 mtr (198 sq mtr) and a concreted area for parking, which still leaves more than half the land available to do whatever we want with.
My philosophy is the greater the spare land area, the more maintenance and upkeep it will require.

You may want to check out two topics as an insight;
https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/6162-time-to-build-a-house/page/37/#comment-306741

https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/19276-renovating-an-old-rural-village-house/#comments

We looked at 5 rai in February

But it was too skinny for what I liked

 

My wife wants to buy a plot of land next to her aunts that is 13 rai

 

I would be happy with 3 rai but it is hard to come by in her village, the 5 rai was smallest we've seen

[Marc26]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:35 PM, KaptainRob said:

Fill height depends on the elevation above local water courses and worst possible flood levels (FL).  Most Amphur/Tessaban offices can provide maps and recent data to assist with this.

I prefer to do my own assessment based on local knowledge/advice.  For our 1st house adjacent a khlong which serves water to nearby farms, I was told that 2011 flood water from the Ping river had reached 1km inland but only rose to road level.  I filled to 60cm above road level and ground floor level was 40cm above that = 1m above worst known flooding.  Not only that but I ensured the ground floor (garage/laundry/3rd bedroom) had all electric circuits on a separate breaker in case of future* mega-flooding.

* In typical Thai fashion the local Gov't. has since built a weir BELOW the city which does absolutely nothing to stop the city area from flooding but it has reduced the potential for flooding below the weir.  CBD floods in 2022 was exacerbated due the weir, but our suburb was dry. 

As to the area of fill, ideally you should lift all usable house and oudoor living areas and contour the balance depending on landscape design.   For our 2nd house, on a lake, the land was already 50cm above past FL's and I did not want to lift higher with fill.  I designed the house to be 150cm above ground level which also provides a crawl space below for any possible plumbing maintenance in the future.  The pool did not need to be dug in as deep and the below 'pool-deck' area provided space for all filtration equipment and aircon condensers (hidden behind aluminum grilles.)

Regarding a pool

 

My ex-gf's family in Brooklyn had an "above ground pool" dug in halfway with a nice deck around it, I was thinking that could be an option

 

I worry about a pool dug into this type of ground/soil???

 

I have also seen pools where they are almost box like concrete that don't seem dug into the ground

 

 

 

[Marc26]

2 hours ago, Raugh said:

A lot of general questions about soil properties with little to no specific information.

I personally don't have much in the way of knowledge about Thai soil other than one area i looked at (a rai or 2 of rice field) had what appeared to be a sandy clayish soil.

So in general if you are considering a concrete slab on grade along with what appears to be typical precast columns on a 4m x 4m grid with masonry exterior walls and some type of light gauge steel ceiling/roof structure my main concerns would be cracking of the slab due to poor compaction of your added fill.

I have not had a chance to observe or note the depth that footings are placed to support the column grid.

We would all be hard pressed to wing it without the advice of a geotechnical engineer but local building knowledge can suffice for small residential like we are discussing. Obviously Thailand is well versed in how to handle soil mechanics as one look around Bangkok will tell us these folks don't mess about.

If i was going to just "wing it" and hope that 6-7 years of settlement will do the trick i would just have the building area + an extra 50% around it covered with dump truck loads of clean soil. If you were really concerned about settlement cracking and what have you there are numerous methods to handle that.

Dig deep, build up solid.

Also, if you have the funds you could always consult a soils engineer to come up with a plan but you would need to know the size and materials in general of your future build.

iirc correctly (sorry i had 1 class in geotechnical engineering a millenia ago) Preloading soil is the term you are looking for if i read your post correctly. In order to increase bearing capacity of the underlying soil.

Here is a simplified explanation link:

https://theconstructor.org/geotechnical/preloading-soil-bearing-capacity/145326/

Of course as inexpensive as things are here you could possibly fill in your land area and have a crew pour a 12" concrete slab on top of that which could be removed prior to construction of your actual residence.

Let that slab settle for a year or two and i would think you would be good to go.

I may be in a similar situation soon but who knows in Thailand lol. Winds of change blow across the landscape like my morning winds. haha

Sorry this may sound like a silly question( I know nothing)

 

Say I filled in 1 rai of land and we ended up building on 3/4 of that

 

Can you put down new grass(like sod) on the leftover filled in area so it isn't just dirt??

[Marc26]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:12 PM, Faz said:

Whether you need to landfill will depend on the existing lay of the land and whether it's prone to occasional flooding. There is also the option of raising the house, leaving a void underneath.
Thais usually recommend leaving any raised land to settle for 12 months, before building.
Locals where you intend to build should be able to give you advice.

We're currently renovating an old village house, which sits on a half rai of land (20 mtr x 40 mtr) and extended the house to 9 mtr x 22 mtr (198 sq mtr) and a concreted area for parking, which still leaves more than half the land available to do whatever we want with.
My philosophy is the greater the spare land area, the more maintenance and upkeep it will require.

You may want to check out two topics as an insight;
https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/6162-time-to-build-a-house/page/37/#comment-306741

https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/19276-renovating-an-old-rural-village-house/#comments

I love Your thread, I read it as soon as you post new updates on it

[Marc26]

10 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Regarding a pool

My ex-gf's family in Brooklyn had an "above ground pool" dug in halfway with a nice deck around it, I was thinking that could be an option

I worry about a pool dug into this type of ground/soil???

I have also seen pools where they are almost box like concrete that don't seem dug into the ground

@KaptainRob

this pool likes it's not built into the ground?

So is it built on top of the foundation?

 

 

[KaptainRob]

It's a relatively small pool, looks big due to the shallow end which is most likely at ground level.  The deep section probably extends 1m below ground.

Nice house.  Looks like Vietnam or India?

[Marc26]

32 minutes ago, KaptainRob said:

It's a relatively small pool, looks big due to the shallow end which is most likely at ground level.  The deep section probably extends 1m below ground.

Nice house.  Looks like Vietnam or India?

I think Vietnam 

 

Gorgeous 

[Raugh]

20 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Sorry this may sound like a silly question( I know nothing)

Say I filled in 1 rai of land and we ended up building on 3/4 of that

Can you put down new grass(like sod) on the leftover filled in area so it isn't just dirt??

Oh my gosh yes. I would have a layer of soil added to cover the fill dirt which will normally be not as conducive to growing grass for example as would something resembling potting soil. Sorry i am not a landscaper and have never owned a house or anything so my experience with lawns is pretty much having my father unleash me on the grass with a push mower at the old house many many moons ago . I would think some Thai folk could easily create a beautifully manicured lawn for you and your family to enjoy.

 

[Marc26]

Just now, Raugh said:

Oh my gosh yes. I would have a layer of soil added to cover the fill dirt which will normally be not as conducive to growing grass for example as would something resembling potting soil. Sorry i am not a landscaper and have never owned a house or anything so my experience with lawns is pretty much having my father unleash me on the grass with a push mower at the old house many many moons ago . I would think some Thai folk could easily create a beautifully manicured lawn for you and your family to enjoy.

I ask that because I have never actually seen a nice manicured area in my wife's village

 

It is usually the house and then filled in dirt area around what wasn't built on

 

But my wife loves gardening and we just re-sodded our house in Nonthaburi at her request, so I am sure she will want the same in the village

 

I just never seen it, so didn't know if possible to re-sod once the fill is in

[Raugh]

20 hours ago, Marc26 said:

@KaptainRob

this pool likes it's not built into the ground?

So is it built on top of the foundation?

Not knowing the specifics for this home design this pool could be incorporated in to the design relatively easily. My approach would be to keep the house and pool separate. A concrete slab footing for the pool with a concrete rectangular "box" poured on top. The deck would be extended as usual to the edge of the pool. No problem. Grout, seal, waterproof, enjoy! Your main headache would be cleaning and maintaining the chemicals, etc.

My WAG (wild A$$ guess) would be a designer could design a place like this for you for around $500 and maybe add a few more benjamins for a soils report and a landscape design if you are looking for "curb appeal". Possibly someone like Faz could guide you through the process and recommend people or design recommendations.

Good luck

 

[Marc26]

16 hours ago, KaptainRob said:

It's a relatively small pool, looks big due to the shallow end which is most likely at ground level.  The deep section probably extends 1m below ground.

Nice house.  Looks like Vietnam or India?

I don't mind a small pool

 

I would like the house raised a bit to get a good view

 

How is that done, with just more dirt/concrete? (i really know nothing! :)  )

[KaptainRob]

10 hours ago, Marc26 said:

I would like the house raised a bit to get a good view

How is that done, with just more dirt/concrete?

Next CM visit I'll show you how it's done. Part lift with fill and more concrete then goes into deeper foundations.

[Gord]

On 6/2/2023 at 10:55 PM, Marc26 said:

I don't mind a small pool

I would like the house raised a bit to get a good view

How is that done, with just more dirt/concrete? (i really know nothing! :)  )

Several different approaches possible depending on your budget and/or long term goals.

You'll probably never sell a non-Thai style house because western amenities add costs Thai people don't want.

I added some illustrative images and photos for you. Your other strategy could be drive around looking for ongoing construction projects to see how they are working. Or go and look at houses that are for sale.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Gord
remove extra image

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, Gord said:

Several different approaches possible depending on your budget and/or long term goals.

You'll probably never sell a non-Thai style house because western amenities add costs Thai people don't want.

I added some illustrative images and photos for you. Your other strategy could be drive around looking for ongoing construction projects to see how they are working. Or go and look at houses that are for sale.

The house would never be never be sold (unless my wife loses at cards 555)

 

Thanks for the examples

I have never seen a house with a pool in the 18 years going to that village

 

I have seen a small hotel with a very elevated pool

 

 

 

[Gord]

23 hours ago, Marc26 said:

The house would never be never be sold (unless my wife loses at cards 555)

Thanks for the examples

I have never seen a house with a pool in the 18 years going to that village

I have seen a small hotel with a very elevated pool

The outer wall of the pool is just a concrete wall. Possibly similar to a retaining wall, in this case holding the water in the pool )

The second image illustrates something similar for a small home pool.

Third image incorporates your wife's manicured lawn and a small pool for lounging  while you watch the grass grow.

 

[Marc26]

5 minutes ago, Gord said:

The outer wall of the pool is just a concrete wall. Possibly similar to a retaining wall, in this case holding the water in the pool )

The second image illustrates something similar for a small home pool.

Third image incorporates your wife's manicured lawn and a small pool for lounging  while you watch the grass grow.

Yes, the 3rd option seemed to make more sense to me because you aren't digging into village ground?

 

If that makes sense

 

 

[Raugh]

Well we certainly have our work cut out for us with you )

You are challenging my concept of what is considered understood standard practices.

Think of this like Legos. Underneath the Legos must be a flat plane so that the Legos are stackable or at least reasonably square. Try stacking a line of Legos on the dirt ground..any bump or ditch will cause the Lego blocks to shear off at strange angles.

Now place the same Legos on your flat tabletop and observe how the line of Legos is at right angles to the table top. The same principle applies to foundations and walls of your proposed building. Without "digging the village dirt" we are limited by the surface's contours. Which is not in itself undoable, but that would be a different approach i'm not sure your builder would encourage.

By digging down and creating a flat dirt plane we create a nice flat surface for our big concrete or masonry Legos to rest upon.  This is a very simplified explanation for a complex subject.

People obtain PHDs in Geotechnical Engineering etc. etc.

It is really just a question of how far you want to dig in to the subject of soil mechanics and related areas.

No pun intended.

[Marc26]

3 hours ago, Raugh said:

Well we certainly have our work cut out for us with you )

You are challenging my concept of what is considered understood standard practices.

Think of this like Legos. Underneath the Legos must be a flat plane so that the Legos are stackable or at least reasonably square. Try stacking a line of Legos on the dirt ground..any bump or ditch will cause the Lego blocks to shear off at strange angles.

Now place the same Legos on your flat tabletop and observe how the line of Legos is at right angles to the table top. The same principle applies to foundations and walls of your proposed building. Without "digging the village dirt" we are limited by the surface's contours. Which is not in itself undoable, but that would be a different approach i'm not sure your builder would encourage.

By digging down and creating a flat dirt plane we create a nice flat surface for our big concrete or masonry Legos to rest upon.  This is a very simplified explanation for a complex subject.

People obtain PHDs in Geotechnical Engineering etc. etc.

It is really just a question of how far you want to dig in to the subject of soil mechanics and related areas.

No pun intended.

It kind of sucks

 

Because I have no clue about any of this but I am a picky bitch that likes things very nice and done right.

 

 

I know some guys are way more laid back than me and are happy with the routine village build

[Gord]

On 6/8/2023 at 2:05 AM, Marc26 said:

It kind of sucks

Because I have no clue about any of this but I am a picky bitch that likes things very nice and done right.

I know some guys are way more laid back than me and are happy with the routine village build

There is nothing wrong with how you want things. It's your money, time, effort, future living space. Very important for farang especially.

If i were you i would hire an Architect. Architects offer expertise, creativity, and knowledge that the average person will never be aware of.

Their job is to design, manage, and advise per your desired future home build. You could always educate yourself via books as well. It's not rocket science )

 

Best of luck

[ExpatPattaya]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:24 AM, Marc26 said:

We will be moving to Thailand(well living there 8/9months a year)

Probably move in 6-7 years

"We" must include a Thai as of course foreigners cannot buy land, only Thai citizens can buy land.  Planning ahead 1-2 years would be enough IMO as things can change in ones life such as health status, location preferred, family matters, etc...

On 6/7/2023 at 10:13 PM, Raugh said:

Try stacking a line of Legos on the dirt ground..any bump or ditch will cause the Lego blocks to shear off at strange angles.

This is why they have ground pounders or soil compactors.  Depending on the soil type, you do need to compact the area thoroughly before putting in footers, concrete floor, whatever.  You can build up most any area by adding dirt and compacting it properly.  Flooding happens everywhere, plan on that.

 

[Marc26]

5 hours ago, ExpatPattaya said:

"We" must include a Thai as of course foreigners cannot buy land, only Thai citizens can buy land.  Planning ahead 1-2 years would be enough IMO as things can change in ones life such as health status, location preferred, family matters, etc...

 

"We" is my Thai wife who I've been with for 20 years

 

Pretty sure I am safe planning out our retirement in 6 or 7 years 

 

If she's gonna do a runner, she sure has played the long game and sucks at it 5555