News Forum - 2-hour flight becomes 16-hour nightmare in Japan

[Thaiger]

Sometimes a few minutes makes all the difference. After a delayed takeoff, a 2-hour flight across Japan became a 16-hour nightmare when it was denied permission to land because it was 10 minutes late. The 335 passengers aboard Japan Airlines (JAL) flight JL 331 were caught in limbo between their departure from Tokyo’s Haneda Airport …

The story 2-hour flight becomes 16-hour nightmare in Japan as seen on Thaiger News.

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[Rookiescot]

Fukuoka airport?

Place has the right name.

[Marble-eye]

36 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Fukuoka airport?

Place has the right name.

 

[HiuMak]

This should set a wake up call for all airlines. 

Japanese has zero tolerance level for Tardiness. 

I am constantly hearing excuses of "this flight will be delayed due to late arrival of aircraft"

[Samlee]

This reminds me of the US university that recently refused to issue a degree to a student because the student owed one cent. ... The university apologised later on though, unlike the Fuku whatever its name is airport.

[Pinetree]

There is a lot more to this story than has been reported. It may be that this flight is consistently late and the airport are making a point. Just one reason why they would not yield.   Airports are fined heavily if they break local noise abatement laws.  The old Hong Kong airport at Kai Tak had a night time cut off of midnight for departures.  I have seen aircraft at the holding point ready to go, ( BA to LHR twice on consecutive nights) just to have the runway lights switched off and ordered back to the parking bay, dead on midnight.  Rules are rules in aviation, or should be. 

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Pinetree said:

There is a lot more to this story than has been reported. It may be that this flight is consistently late and the airport are making a point. Just one reason why they would not yield.   Airports are fined heavily if they break local noise abatement laws.  The old Hong Kong airport at Kai Tak had a night time cut off of midnight for departures.  I have seen aircraft at the holding point ready to go, ( BA to LHR twice on consecutive nights) just to have the runway lights switched off and ordered back to the parking bay, dead on midnight.  Rules are rules in aviation, or should be. 

Pinetree what is the penalty for a pilot declaring an emergency when there was not really one?

Just thinking that the flight crew could simply have said we need to land because we are tired or something.

[Pinetree]

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Pinetree what is the penalty for a pilot declaring an emergency when there was not really one?

Just thinking that the flight crew could simply have said we need to land because we are tired or something.

They could have done, and it very occasionally happens, but if it is found to be incorrect, the airline could face a serious sanction from the Aviation Authorities and the pilots could find themselves suspended for unprofessional conduct.  I think that the schedulers should have resolved the issue after the initial 90 minute delay, so the fault may lie with them. 

[Soidog]

4 hours ago, HiuMak said:

I am constantly hearing excuses of "this flight will be delayed due to late arrival of aircraft"

One of many gripes I have about airlines. It is absolutely incredible how they even think this is some form of legitimate and reasonable excuse to say to its customers. What they are essentially saying is “Sorry for the late departure, it’s because we are sh*t and our plane landed late and so our plane is now late to take off and once again we are sh*t”. Why don’t they give the actual reason? That way we can understand if it was unavoidable such as having to divert around poor weather. Or if it was just poor management because someone forgot to order a refuel on time. Airlines and airports have just got in to a fixed mindset now. They just accept failure as unavoidable.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate how complex the whole aviation business is. I also appreciate that they are moving people around and people are just the worst type of product to handle. However, they just layer more and more stuff on top of things and never seem to remove or review things. I’ll end this rant with one final ask of airlines. Please, please stop telling me this is a no smoking flight. I Ef’in well know it’s a no smoking flight! 
 

One glimmer of hope is that I see airports in the U.K. will soon drop the 100ml liquid rule in hand baggage. Something that has been in place since around 2001. It’s only taken 22 years to fix this particular ball ache! 

[Pinetree]

14 minutes ago, Soidog said:

One of many gripes I have about airlines. It is absolutely incredible how they even think this is some form of legitimate and reasonable excuse to say to its customers. What they are essentially saying is “Sorry for the late departure, it’s because we are sh*t and our plane landed late and so our plane is now late to take off and once again we are sh*t”. Why don’t they give the actual reason? That way we can understand if it was unavoidable such as having to divert around poor weather. Or if it was just poor management because someone forgot to order a refuel on time. Airlines and airports have just got in to a fixed mindset now. They just accept failure as unavoidable.

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate how complex the whole aviation business is. I also appreciate that they are moving people around and people are just the worst type of product to handle. However, they just layer more and more stuff on top of things and never seem to remove or review things. I’ll end this rant with one final ask of airlines. Please, please stop telling me this is a no smoking flight. I Ef’in well know it’s a no smoking flight! 
 

One glimmer of hope is that I see airports in the U.K. will soon drop the 100ml liquid rule in hand baggage. Something that has been in place since around 2001. It’s only taken 22 years to fix this particular ball ache! 

I appreciate the frustration. Things are very tight in the aviation industry, especially in Europe.  Slot times' are tight, aircraft utilization is tight and passengers are brainless and get lost, pitch up late, leave stuff lying around and cause delays.  My own airline was almost pathologically tied to on time departures and arrivals and generally, we were only late if the airport screwed up, or ATC did.  Good video here. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTNz74rrOq0&t=152s

 

[Soidog]

17 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

I appreciate the frustration. Things are very tight in the aviation industry, especially in Europe.  Slot times' are tight, aircraft utilization is tight and passengers are brainless and get lost, pitch up late, leave stuff lying around and cause delays.  My own airline was almost pathologically tied to on time departures and arrivals and generally, we were only late if the airport screwed up, or ATC did.  Good video here. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTNz74rrOq0&t=152s

A helpful video and very helpful in understanding the impact of slot timing. 
 

One of the issues that airlines and airports seem to struggle with, is information to passengers. Although people can be a real pain, I do find most people are reasonable once they can see a logic to what is taking place. They may still not like the outcome, but being kept in the dark (accidentally or as policy) is where the frustration creeps in. For example. In the video you attached, the pilot explains why the captain may request passengers to take their seats quickly. I’ve heard that several times while flying and most people either don’t hear it or just think the captain is demanding we move quicker to allow people in board. I’m sure if the captain announced. “Can you please take your seats quickly. If we can get everyone seated in the next 5 minutes we will avoid a 45 minute delay” then every passenger on board would be urging everyone to hurry up. 
 

I would love to understand airline operations more and spend time with a company to see what mindset exists. For example. I’d love to know if the PA announcements are ever checked by anyone in terms of quality. I regularly sit on a plane and wonder what the hell the steward is saying. The audio is either distorted or the volume is too low. Everyone on the plane is ignoring the garbled message and even other stewards can hear it’s pointless and yet none of them seem to think to tell the person with the mic. I see many such issues while travelling and I’m just flabbergasted that they never seem to be resolved. I could go on for days about these things, but I promise I won’t
 

As I say, I fully appreciate the complexity of aviation. The myriad of things that can go wrong no matter what planning is done. My frustration is the inability of airlines to put in to context for passengers the issues and hence allow people to follow the logic for the delays. I assume that in the background these issues and the data behind the delays are analysed and targets for improvement are in place? 
 

Thanks for the video. I’ve seen that guy before and it’s a good series of videos

[JohninDublin]

55 minutes ago, Soidog said:

One glimmer of hope is that I see airports in the U.K. will soon drop the 100ml liquid rule in hand baggage. Something that has been in place since around 2001. It’s only taken 22 years to fix this particular ball ache! 

In all fairness to the UK, they are not the only country and it was intrduced for a very legitimate reason. The UK police uncovered a plot by suicide bombers to smuggle liquid explosives onto a plane.

My first personal experience of this rule came at Gdansk Airport the day after it was introduced and I was returning to the UK. To access Duty Free, you had to pass through security. People were buying bottles from the Duty Free, only to have them confiscated at the departure gate, "because we all know how easy it is to buy liquid explosive at Duty Free". After the gate had closed the attendants then gathered up the discarded bottles and returned them to the Duty Free Shop where they were resold. Clearly the restrictions were only meant to apply to liquids brought into the airport and not duty free bought therein. 

[Soidog]

5 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

In all fairness to the UK, they are not the only country and it was intrduced for a very legitimate reason. The UK police uncovered a plot by suicide bombers to smuggle liquid explosives onto a plane.

My first personal experience of this rule came at Gdansk Airport the day after it was introduced and I was returning to the UK. To access Duty Free, you had to pass through security. People were buying bottles from the Duty Free, only to have them confiscated at the departure gate, "because we all know how easy it is to buy liquid explosive at Duty Free". After the gate had closed the attendants then gathered up the discarded bottles and returned them to the Duty Free Shop where they were resold. Clearly the restrictions were only meant to apply to liquids brought into the airport and not duty free bought therein. 

Yes, the liquid ban was and remains a global aviation security mandate and as you say, for a good reason. It’s good that the U.K. is at the forefront of rolling out new technology which helps to remove at least one delay at security. I also read the new scanners will remove the need to take out laptops and other electrical items from your carry on bag. All of this will speed up security checks.  

One thing though that always surprises me about the confiscation of liquids at security. If they do it as there is a potential for the liquids to be dangerous chemicals or even premixed explosives, then why are they just placed in a waste bin a few feet away from everyone? Why aren’t they taken away by people dressed in full bomb disposal gear

[JohninDublin]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

Yes, the liquid ban was and remains a global aviation security mandate and as you say, for a good reason. It’s good that the U.K. is at the forefront of rolling out new technology which helps to remove at least one delay at security. I also read the new scanners will remove the need to take out laptops and other electrical items from your carry on bag. All of this will speed up security checks.  

One thing though that always surprises me about the confiscation of liquids at security. If they do it as there is a potential for the liquids to be dangerous chemicals or even premixed explosives, then why are they just placed in a waste bin a few feet away from everyone? Why aren’t they taken away by people dressed in full bomb disposal gear

I think the 100 mill ban was introduced for manageability. Once through security, there are plenty of shops and restos. Most flights provide refreshment, why would you need more than a 100 mill bottle. That's my guess.

[Grumpish]

1 hour ago, JohninDublin said:

I think the 100 mill ban was introduced for manageability. Once through security, there are plenty of shops and restos. Most flights provide refreshment, why would you need more than a 100 mill bottle. That's my guess.

It always amazes me what people regard as carry on - not so long ago I was stuck behind an entitled twenty-something couple who were arguing about their outsize stroller (or buggy or whatever they call them these days) festooned with what must have been a two week supply of disposable nappies having to go as hold baggage. And I am always seeing people trying to take suitcase sized bags that they can hardly lift as carry on.

[Soidog]

Just now, Grumpish said:

It always amazes me what people regard as carry on - not so long ago I was stuck behind an entitled twenty-something couple who were arguing about their outsize stroller (or buggy or whatever they call them these days) festooned with what must have been a two week supply of disposable nappies having to go as hold baggage. And I am always seeing people trying to take suitcase sized bags that they can hardly lift as carry on.

I agree. That said, I’m not entirely innocent and often find my bag exceeds carry on weight limits even if the size complies. I’m generally careful with my carry on and even when I have perhaps got 10kg of weight, I don’t have to wait long before some Indian with a massive stripped plastic bag tries to carry on two 50 inch TV’s

[Pinetree]

3 hours ago, Soidog said:

A helpful video and very helpful in understanding the impact of slot timing. 
 

One of the issues that airlines and airports seem to struggle with, is information to passengers. Although people can be a real pain, I do find most people are reasonable once they can see a logic to what is taking place. They may still not like the outcome, but being kept in the dark (accidentally or as policy) is where the frustration creeps in. For example. In the video you attached, the pilot explains why the captain may request passengers to take their seats quickly. I’ve heard that several times while flying and most people either don’t hear it or just think the captain is demanding we move quicker to allow people in board. I’m sure if the captain announced. “Can you please take your seats quickly. If we can get everyone seated in the next 5 minutes we will avoid a 45 minute delay” then every passenger on board would be urging everyone to hurry up. 
 

I would love to understand airline operations more and spend time with a company to see what mindset exists. For example. I’d love to know if the PA announcements are ever checked by anyone in terms of quality. I regularly sit on a plane and wonder what the hell the steward is saying. The audio is either distorted or the volume is too low. Everyone on the plane is ignoring the garbled message and even other stewards can hear it’s pointless and yet none of them seem to think to tell the person with the mic. I see many such issues while travelling and I’m just flabbergasted that they never seem to be resolved. I could go on for days about these things, but I promise I won’t
 

As I say, I fully appreciate the complexity of aviation. The myriad of things that can go wrong no matter what planning is done. My frustration is the inability of airlines to put in to context for passengers the issues and hence allow people to follow the logic for the delays. I assume that in the background these issues and the data behind the delays are analysed and targets for improvement are in place? 
 

Thanks for the video. I’ve seen that guy before and it’s a good series of videos

Without prolonging the post and boring others, perhaps I can just add a comment on PAs from the flight deck during delays.   Couple of points here that may be interesting to note, to explain a possible lack of information from the flight deck.  Firstly, the period in question is very busy for the pilots. While the Captain tries to negotiate with the airline ground personnel, the engineers, sometimes the Company  and Air Traffic, often a tortuous set of processes, the first officer will be knee deep in the paperwork, cargo manifest, load sheets, briefing charts, fuel calculations,  clearances. The work load can be very high and continuous.  The Captain may not want to be too definitive with the passengers, and may not be able to give information that may shortly prove to be wrong. On long haul we carry at least over extra pilot, but that person is not yet in the command chain and cannot intervein in this work load to any degree, that person will also not have all the information available to the Captain.  Some delays happen directly after push back, especially in the US.  Once that happens a 'sterile cockpit' is established by air law and only communication directly related to the flight is allowed between the pilots.  Chances for lengthy updates to the passengers then rely on the Cabin Staff and they don't always have the right information at hand. Hope that helps a bit. 

[Soidog]

11 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

Without prolonging the post and boring others, perhaps I can just add a comment on PAs from the flight deck during delays.   Couple of points here that may be interesting to note, to explain a possible lack of information from the flight deck.  Firstly, the period in question is very busy for the pilots. While the Captain tries to negotiate with the airline ground personnel, the engineers, sometimes the Company  and Air Traffic, often a tortuous set of processes, the first officer will be knee deep in the paperwork, cargo manifest, load sheets, briefing charts, fuel calculations,  clearances. The work load can be very high and continuous.  The Captain may not want to be too definitive with the passengers, and may not be able to give information that may shortly prove to be wrong. On long haul we carry at least over extra pilot, but that person is not yet in the command chain and cannot intervein in this work load to any degree, that person will also not have all the information available to the Captain.  Some delays happen directly after push back, especially in the US.  Once that happens a 'sterile cockpit' is established by air law and only communication directly related to the flight is allowed between the pilots.  Chances for lengthy updates to the passengers then rely on the Cabin Staff and they don't always have the right information at hand. Hope that helps a bit. 

Yes that’s insightful and interesting. Appreciated.

[Marc26]

13 hours ago, Pinetree said:

Without prolonging the post and boring others, perhaps I can just add a comment on PAs from the flight deck during delays.   Couple of points here that may be interesting to note, to explain a possible lack of information from the flight deck.  Firstly, the period in question is very busy for the pilots. While the Captain tries to negotiate with the airline ground personnel, the engineers, sometimes the Company  and Air Traffic, often a tortuous set of processes, the first officer will be knee deep in the paperwork, cargo manifest, load sheets, briefing charts, fuel calculations,  clearances. The work load can be very high and continuous.  The Captain may not want to be too definitive with the passengers, and may not be able to give information that may shortly prove to be wrong. On long haul we carry at least over extra pilot, but that person is not yet in the command chain and cannot intervein in this work load to any degree, that person will also not have all the information available to the Captain.  Some delays happen directly after push back, especially in the US.  Once that happens a 'sterile cockpit' is established by air law and only communication directly related to the flight is allowed between the pilots.  Chances for lengthy updates to the passengers then rely on the Cabin Staff and they don't always have the right information at hand. Hope that helps a bit. 

Love reading stuff like this from someone obviously experienced 

Such great and interesting insight 

 

Thanks @Pinetree

[Pinetree]

2 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Love reading stuff like this from someone obviously experienced 

Such great and interesting insight 

Thanks @Pinetree

Many thanks. If there is one thing that I love talking about, and boring my friends senseless about, its all things aviation.