Please Help Answer My Question Regarding Certified Thai Birth Certificates for Thai Citizens

[SkyDogJack]

Hello,

I have a very specific question that I am posting to the forum, which is complicated and important. First, a brief background and a big thank you to Faz for helping me as much as possible already.

Here is the problem in as short a way as possible. 

I am trying to bring my stepdaughter (Thai) to the USA and if a little lucky, about the same time as she graduates from her university studies in Bangkok.  This was supposed to be a straightforward application as my immediate family.  All looked good until we realized my wife (Thai) could not find her daughter's original birth certificate. This should have been an easy problem to rectify, simply have my stepdaughter go to the Amphoe and get a certified copy and email it to me.  It has turned out to not be simple.

Here is the issue.  The Amphoe will only issue a certifying document, also known as a "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard". This is the problem.  This document is taken from an online database, and it does not contain the "Registration" or "Notification" date. My wife has called several times now in the middle of the night, once while her daughter was trying to get an actual certified copy of her birth certificate.  We have been told by the officer at the Amphoe and another officer at the district that it is not possible to obtain an actual copy of the original birth certificate for Thai citizens born after 1996. We were told that all births after 1996 follow the new computer database format.  We were told in no uncertain terms that a Thai citizen can only get a computer-generated certified copy for those born 1996 and after, otherwise known as a "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard" if they need a copy.  We were told that Thai citizens only get one original and that is it.  Period, end of story. (If born before 1996, it is not a problem because there will be an original birth certificate with all the necessary information).

This is the problem. For a birth certificate to be considered valid by American immigration, it must have the "Registration" or "Notification" date.  This is the date the Amphoe was notified of the child's birth. There are no exceptions to this rule. We can work around this issue, but it will be time consuming, expensive and not as certain to be accepted as proof of the mother daughter relationship as a valid birth certificate is.

I have tried contacting Siam Legal in Bangkok to see if they can help.  They have not responded.  I have another request for legal assistance with another law firm in Bangkok and am waiting to hear back from them.

What am I asking here in the forum? It is this:

Has anyone come across this issue.

Is what we have been told now several times by Thai government officials correct?

Is it true that it is not possible to obtain a true certified copy of the original birth certificate with all the necessary information to satisfy American immigration if born after 1996 in Thailand?

If this is not an absolute, is there a solution?  What is the solution?

We are caught between Thai government policies and system changes and the American immigration rules and requirements. I am reaching out to the forum to see if anyone has any information? I am running out of time to file my petition for my stepdaughter and need to resolve this asap.

So, if anyone knows the factual answers to my questions, please let me know. I am prepared to accept that we will never be able to get a valid copy of my stepdaughter's birth certificate to satisfy American immigration, but I don't want to make that decision unless I know I have no other choice.

Thank you for reading my request for help.

Jack

 

 

[SkyDogJack]

Update to my own research:

Yesterday I talked with an immigration law firm in Bangkok, and they confirmed there is no exact replacement for the original birth certificate for Thai's born 1996 and later if the original copy has been lost. The Thai citizen can only obtain a "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard".

There is some confusion on my part as to whether the "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard" can be used for a child's birth certificate for approval by USCIS and I am waiting to get confirmation on that question. The "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard" can be used for a spousal petition which is good to know for anyone in similar circumstances wanting to apply to bring their Thai wife to the USA.

As soon as I get the final information, I'll post it here. 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by SkyDogJack
More info

[SkyDogJack]

Final Update. I suppose I should precede this with, "I am not an attorney, and my information is not to be considered legal advice". With that said.

After much research and contact with two lawyers in Thailand and the USA as well as other immigration resources I have an answer to whether a "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard" can be used in place of a certified copy of the original child's birth certificate for approval by USCIS.  The answer is "No". It cannot.

For anyone wanting to petition for their own child or stepchild to move to America and obtain lawful immigrant status, they will need to submit "secondary evidence" to prove the validity of the child-parent relationship if using the "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard".

Other visas are handled differently, and the standard of proof is different. 

In conclusion, if your Thai spouse has lost the original copy of her child's birth certificate and the child was born in 1996 or later, the "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard" as standalone primary evidence is not enough. You will need other records like primary school transcripts, photographs of the mother and child together, hospital records (I learned that in my case the hospital in Thailand where my stepdaughter was born destroys birth records after 10-15 years) or sworn statements acceptable by USCIS or other evidence that can prove the validity of the child-mother relationship.

We are in the process of gathering sufficient secondary evidence to proceed with our immigration application for my stepdaughter. 

I hope this information is useful and as another member of this forum pointed out to me, if married to a Thai citizen you must be sure they have all the records from their life in Thailand. If not, you run the risk if dealing with this exact circumstance.

Good luck.

Jack

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by SkyDogJack
More info

[Faz]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:20 AM, SkyDogJack said:

In conclusion, if your Thai spouse has lost the original copy of her child's birth certificate and the child was born in 1996 or later, the "Bai-rub-rong-kan-keard" as standalone primary evidence is not enough. You will need other records like primary school transcripts, photographs of the mother and child together, hospital records (I learned that in my case the hospital in Thailand where my stepdaughter was born destroys birth records after 10-15 years) or sworn statements acceptable by USCIS or other evidence that can prove the validity of the child-mother relationship.

We are in the process of gathering sufficient secondary evidence to proceed with our immigration application for my stepdaughter. 

Surely, a simple DNA test for Mother and daughter would provide unrefutable evidence of the relationship.

[SkyDogJack]

5 hours ago, Faz said:

Surely, a simple DNA test for Mother and daughter would provide unrefutable evidence of the relationship.

Hi Faz,

I checked and the answer is "yes", however we cannot submit a DNA tests as "secondary" evidence without immigrationasking for it.  USCIS has to send a "Request for Evidence" to us for a DNA test to be performed. 

The test must also be performed here in the USA and Thailand at an approved immigration DNA laboratory. After the tests is performed,  the results are sent directly from the laboratory to the immigration office. We would get a copy.

The fees are around a thousand dollars from what i have read. 

So, we would have to wait for immigration to request the DNA test. We cannot submit a test as evidence for relationship until immigration has decided we don't have enough evidence from the primary and secondary list.

 

Good idea. I had not thought about that. 

 

[Jerrypcman]

That’s Thai Immigration for you. my wife was born in 1959 in Phetchaburi, no birth certificate anywhere. She has an expired Thai passport from 1972, her moms passport, has relatives who live her and she just WANTS A NEW ID CARD TO GET A NEW PASSPORT TO BUY LAND. WE HAVE BEEN TO 6 AMPHUR OFFICES AND GOT 8 DIFFERENT REQUIREMENT TO PROVE SHE IS A THAI CITIZEN. The Thai embassy in DC gave her a non imm O based on being a Thai citizen from the documents we have. So you think the idiots here would at least know their own rules. In face her 2 brothers and sisters in the US and her have no records in the amphur systems anywhere.  Even had her step mom and brother go to immigration with her and attest to being part of that household, that didn’t work, They told her to go to her school to get a copy, records destroyed in a fire, told her to go to the 10th owners of her grandparents house and get a statement that her grandparents lived there, that didn’t work, ooohh one said we would have to fly back to Washington DC and get the Thai embassy to issue her ID , I pissed him off saying, “you want me to spend $6000 in plane tickets, get a hotel in DC, fly at least 60hrs there and back to visit a Thailand Governemnt in the US when they follow the same rules as you and aren’t you the Thai government too? That’s stupid as shit!!..

 

so now after weeks, visited offices from Sang Roi Yod to Bangkok, with now 14 different requirements we are not one step closer to getting her ID card. 
 

WHATS THEIR FREAKING PROBLEMS, ITS NOT THE LAUNCH CODE KEY CARD FOR MINUTEMAN MISSILES….

 

‘’CAN ANYONE HELP….

Edited August 4, 2023 by Jerrypcman
New info

[McTavish]

Try Khaosan Road?

[SkyDogJack]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:10 AM, Jerrypcman said:

That’s Thai Immigration for you. my wife was born in 1959 in Phetchaburi, no birth certificate anywhere. She has an expired Thai passport from 1972, her moms passport, has relatives who live her and she just WANTS A NEW ID CARD TO GET A NEW PASSPORT TO BUY LAND. WE HAVE BEEN TO 6 AMPHUR OFFICES AND GOT 8 DIFFERENT REQUIREMENT TO PROVE SHE IS A THAI CITIZEN. The Thai embassy in DC gave her a non imm O based on being a Thai citizen from the documents we have. So you think the idiots here would at least know their own rules. In face her 2 brothers and sisters in the US and her have no records in the amphur systems anywhere.  Even had her step mom and brother go to immigration with her and attest to being part of that household, that didn’t work, They told her to go to her school to get a copy, records destroyed in a fire, told her to go to the 10th owners of her grandparents house and get a statement that her grandparents lived there, that didn’t work, ooohh one said we would have to fly back to Washington DC and get the Thai embassy to issue her ID , I pissed him off saying, “you want me to spend $6000 in plane tickets, get a hotel in DC, fly at least 60hrs there and back to visit a Thailand Governemnt in the US when they follow the same rules as you and aren’t you the Thai government too? That’s stupid as shit!!..

so now after weeks, visited offices from Sang Roi Yod to Bangkok, with now 14 different requirements we are not one step closer to getting her ID card. 
 

WHATS THEIR FREAKING PROBLEMS, ITS NOT THE LAUNCH CODE KEY CARD FOR MINUTEMAN MISSILES….

‘’CAN ANYONE HELP….

Jerrypcman,

Sorry you are having such a difficult time.  For what it is worth, after months of dealing with the birth certificate issue with my stepdaughter, I finally had to accept I could follow the U.S. immigration directions and hope for the best or give up.   I have learned a few things that were eyeopeners. 

The big one is different American consulates around the world have different requirements for the same visa category.  It was only after my wife, and I really dissected this that I realized why.  The problem lies with the amount of falsification around birth, marriage and divorce documents in the Thai culture and government system, or lack of documentation.  The American embassy imposes a stricter document trail for anything involving a Thai national than other embassies.  

The issues with those who are born stateless, or a birth certificate was never issued and questions regarding their true legal status as Thai citizens create this almost impossible system of proof.  Even a marriage certificate can be major stumbling block.  Most Thai have a Buddhist wedding but many never register the wedding.  This also happens in America except, in Thailand it is apparently much more of a problem.

It is the responsibility of both parties to register the wedding, and the marriage is not legal until both have appeared at the Amphur to attest to the wedding.

In Thailand there is no such thing as "common law" marriages.  Couples in Thailand who get married and are together as husband and wife for years but don't register the wedding in the Thai legal system, they are not married.  This is just the way it is.  Apparently, there is very little recourse.

As my wife explained it to me, there are many parents that pressure one of the children to never register the marriage because of inheritance rights. So, the spouse with little can literally be left out in the dark and cold if there is a split.  This is very sad, but it is simply the way it is.  We have the same issues here in the USA, but it is not in our face like it is when dealing with immigration, whether Thai or American.

There are so many examples of how things work differently in Thailand from in America that it can feel overwhelming. What I have come to understand is it is not directed at me or my wife.  This is simply a government reaction, Thai and other government to a societal and cultural environment that has existed for a long, long time.

I know this does not help you other than my observation and empathy for what you both are going through.  I don't have anything I can add to help.  I am sorry.

Edited August 5, 2023 by SkyDogJack
Spelling

[Pinetree]

Hi, without going into a long winded explanation of my own issues along the same lines, I was told by a local Amphur, and lawyer, that the easiest way to solve these issues was by going through the Thai Adoption procedure.   I know it seems totally illogical, but we solved my Thai born daughter's status issues by me adopting my own child. It was idiotic, but what isn't idiotic and illogical in this Country, but it worked.  If you need more specifics PM me. 

[SkyDogJack]

1 hour ago, Pinetree said:

Hi, without going into a long winded explanation of my own issues along the same lines, I was told by a local Amphur, and lawyer, that the easiest way to solve these issues was by going through the Thai Adoption procedure.   I know it seems totally illogical, but we solved my Thai born daughter's status issues by me adopting my own child. It was idiotic, but what isn't idiotic and illogical in this Country, but it worked.  If you need more specifics PM me. 

Hi Pinetree,

That actually sounds logical in Thailand.  I'm happy that worked for you.  For me, I am on the only course available to meet all the time constraints with American immigration.  It is too late, and my stepdaughter is too old for me to pursue the adoption strategy.  Good idea though. I think other can benefit from that idea.

Thanks for sharing.