Thai Loss of Face

[Soidog]

Most of us are aware of the cultural aspect of Asian loss of face, and many of us have experienced this in Thailand. I hear it said many times by foreigners and Thais. Many Thais will tell me they can’t question something as it may cause loss of face for the other person. Or someone said something and made them lose face. Over the years I have asked many to provide a clear explanation of what this phenomenon is and how it differs from similar things in Western cultures such as embarrassment. The key thing for me is that this culturally ingrained loss of face seems a major hurdle to why the country seems to be stuck in the past in so many day to day activities. It seems like no one dare suggest to their line manager how to improve things. The media seem unable to question politicians on their actions. No one seems to look back at targets and then question why they were not met. Issues remain vague on who was accountable and responsible. And yet, at the same time, Thailand is a middle income country with some excellent infrastructure and improves each and every year. After 15 years of living mainly in Thailand, I’m just as confused and even frustrated at the lack of ability anyone has in explaining loss of face, especially given it’s such a major part of Thai culture. I’m sure I could adequately explain embarrassment, sarcasm and irony to a Thai, but they can’t explain loss of face to me. At times it seems like they would be betraying a national secret if they were to do so. 

[Smithydog]

It is definitely ingrained into the mind. However, for a lot of people around the rural village I live in, face is the single most  important they have or own. It is their personal pride and ego, along with their standing amongst others. For many it is at the cornerstone of their viewed integrity and their moral ethics and values. I don't think that there is one simple definition that covers it.

It is clear that some derive their power from the strength of their face. Others lose their standing and even their life because of it. It seems so often to be this controlling force.

So many Asian areas have it. I remember an experience with a call centre in the Philippines who were struggling with a new way of working that taught them to question what they were doing and how. We had to get the Call Centre manager issue a decree ordering the staff to question everything because it ran contrary to the way they had been brought up and they feared their families would lose face if they did it!

I struggle with it but have also learnt not to try and change it as I seemingly won't win!

 

[gazmo16]

Sadly Saving face seems to be holding the country back and those brave enough to question things are few in number and immediately set upon by the sheep who are bound to this outdated concept. The whole system here relies on total obedience.

Each time I watch the Pro Democracy demonstrations in the News I see the young trying to move ideas forward while they are suppressed by the majority who need to keep the status quo. It's like people are so cowed they can not accept their own right to question anything or consider there may be acceptable alternative ideas or solutions. 

Saving face is not a good or healthy thing but it's the norm and until it's gone few new ideas or improvements will surface in Thailand I think.

[gummy]

4 minutes ago, gazmo16 said:

Sadly Saving face seems to be holding the country back and those brave enough to question things are few in number and immediately set upon by the sheep who are bound to this outdated concept. The whole system here relies on total obedience.

Each time I watch the Pro Democracy demonstrations in the News I see the young trying to move ideas forward while they are suppressed by the majority who need to keep the status quo. It's like people are so cowed they can not accept their own right to question anything or consider there may be acceptable alternative ideas or solutions. 

Saving face is not a good or healthy thing but it's the norm and until it's gone few new ideas or improvements will surface in Thailand I think.

Whilst I agree with your comments in is not just a Thai issue. In my experience and those of thousands of others it appears to be an Asian issue. Quite why I would ask any cultural experts to expound upon but just for some one  like myself who has worked in Asian countries it is not specific to Thailand.

[gazmo16]

Very true Face saving is still a very common concept in Asia, look at Japan as a world leader in many areas which still embraces it and who's workers have to drink every night their boss wants to and not go home until the Boss leaves first. 

[Soidog]

15 minutes ago, gummy said:

Whilst I agree with your comments in is not just a Thai issue. In my experience and those of thousands of others it appears to be an Asian issue. Quite why I would ask any cultural experts to expound upon but just for some one  like myself who has worked in Asian countries it is not specific to Thailand.

Totally agree, this is an Asian phenomenon and I have seen it experienced it in Japan and Korea. My reason for opening the topic was more to try to see if there was a basic explanation for it, along the lines of say sarcasm.   If I had to explain English sarcasm to a Thai, I would probably say something like :

it’s a form of humour to mock or make a joke at someone’s expense and often uses words that are the exact opposite of what you really mean to make light of a situation . For example, if someone drops a load of glasses on the way back to the bar. You may say Well done, keep up the good work.  This is meant to diffuse the obvious embarrassment the person feels and deflect the attention of others. It softens the blow and at the same time let’s the person know you noticed. 
 

I simply can’t get any Asian to explain Loss of face and give reasons or examples why it’s used, let alone even start to discuss the possible positive and negative aspects of it. It’s fascinating to me

Edited July 9, 2021 by Soidog
Typo

[colinneil]

Loss of face, its crazy how Thais will do/ say anything rather than lose face, i have said before a Thai would probably commit murder rather than lose face.

My wife is a school director, many times we have people, teachers etc visiting for various reasons, now before she opens the gate to let them in she says to me.... You speak nice, make them happy.

Well as many folk know i speak straight, no BS, just plain speaking, one time a relative of my wife was here asking what did i think about her new dress, well me being me told her, she did not look good in it.... Holy hell, wife went nuts with me, what i do wrong? You not speak nice, never do that again.

[BlueSphinx]

3 minutes ago, colinneil said:

...

Well as many folk know i speak straight, no BS, just plain speaking, one time a relative of my wife was here asking what did i think about her new dress, well me being me told her, she did not look good in it.... Holy hell, wife went nuts with me, what i do wrong? You not speak nice, never do that again.

Hi Colin, I appreciate someone who openly speaks his mind but indeed in Thailand this is 'not done' as avoiding face-loss is all-important in Thai culture.  Imo in matters of importance you should always be straightforward, but in social situations it is recommended - and surely in Thailand - to speak a 'little white lie'.  Even when the other person KNOWS that that is not your real opinion, it will be appreciated as it is considered a sign of respect and good manners. 

[Abertillery]

Yes it's a load of nonsense, I've been outspoken on many times and been slapped down ,cant say that well you cant stop me ,if you dont like it dont listen 

[colinneil]

3 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

Hi Colin, I appreciate someone who openly speaks his mind but indeed in Thailand this is 'not done' as avoiding face-loss is all-important in Thai culture.  Imo in matters of importance you should always be straightforward, but in social situations it is recommended - and surely in Thailand - to speak a 'little white lie'.  Even when the other person KNOWS that that is not your real opinion, it will be appreciated as it is considered a sign of respect and good manners. 

You clearly dont know me, i am a Lancashire lad, speak straight, no BS, always have been that way, always will be.

My parents brought me up to always speak the truth, speak straight, and i believe if there were more straight talking people in the world it would not be in the mess it is in now.

Good manners you say, what from me, i am just a grumpy old sod.

[BlueSphinx]

7 minutes ago, colinneil said:

You clearly dont know me, i am a Lancashire lad, speak straight, no BS, always have been that way, always will be.

My parents brought me up to always speak the truth, speak straight, and i believe if there were more straight talking people in the world it would not be in the mess it is in now.

Good manners you say, what from me, i am just a grumpy old sod.

Yes, as the saying goes: 'the cranky old goat gets the fresh leaf'. 

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, colinneil said:

Loss of face, its crazy how Thais will do/ say anything rather than lose face, i have said before a Thai would probably commit murder rather than lose face.

My wife is a school director, many times we have people, teachers etc visiting for various reasons, now before she opens the gate to let them in she says to me.... You speak nice, make them happy.

Well as many folk know i speak straight, no BS, just plain speaking, one time a relative of my wife was here asking what did i think about her new dress, well me being me told her, she did not look good in it.... Holy hell, wife went nuts with me, what i do wrong? You not speak nice, never do that again.

You wife needs to take you to Specsavers and get your glasses rose-tinted.

[Objectivance]

I find the phenomenon is quite easy to use to one's advantage if they understand the handicap that it employs. 

[billybob]

Way back when I was a friend with the language slot FCO trade consul at the British Embassy. He had a 3 year relationship with a Thai girl which ended when she wouldn't follow him abroad. He spoke fluent Thai having done 18 months training 6 months living with a family in Phuket. He eventually married a fellow Brit who also worked at the Embassy. He left me with a telling quote as to what was wrong with "this country" - he said "pii-nong" - the rigid hierarchicaliearchical structure that all Thais have delivered with their mother's milk. They know their place in the scheme of things. Thailand seems to operate in a closed almost feudal structure which is very difficult to crack or move up the scale. "Face" seems to be part of that sociodynamic construct. Falang not understand.... 

[2Lotus2]

Yep. It's a Hierarchical / Patronage society.

But I think it may be easier to move up and down the social scale than you think.

 

 

 

 

 

[TiT]

5 minutes ago, 2Lotus2 said:

Yep. It's a Hierarchical / Patronage society.

But I think it may be easier to move up and down the social scale than you think.

All it takes is $$$ to get more respect, it's pretty sad how shallow many people are.

[billybob]

24 minutes ago, TiT said:

All it takes is $$$ to get more respect, it's pretty sad how shallow many people are.

Tiger Woods visits Thailand a lot his mother is Thai and his dad was in the US army in the Vietnam war. After a while he got wind of gossip about his mum and I think that was that. I don't see Thai culture boasting about his heritage whereas Lisa from Black Pink we never hear the end of it.  Their lauding of luk-khruengs and white skin (half Thai / half 'farang') in soaps and the like is pathetic and symptomatic in some respect of a national inferiority complex. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luk_khrueng

Edited July 11, 2021 by billybob

[TiT]

11 minutes ago, billybob said:

Their lauding of luk-khruengs and white skin (half Thai / half 'farang') in soaps and the like is pathetic and symptomatic in some respect of a national inferiority complex. 

Many of them also believe that the world revolves around Thailand.  The more educated ones that actually get outside the country and open their eyes to the rest of the world are far more respectable.  I'm glad that they love their country and are proud of their Thainess, I think that's great, but the hi-so's that look down on their countrymen and think their shit doesn't stink are just pathetic.  They wouldn't stand a chance without the scales tipped in their favor from the start.

[Soidog]

On 7/10/2021 at 12:58 AM, colinneil said:

Loss of face, its crazy how Thais will do/ say anything rather than lose face, i have said before a Thai would probably commit murder rather than lose face.

My wife is a school director, many times we have people, teachers etc visiting for various reasons, now before she opens the gate to let them in she says to me.... You speak nice, make them happy.

Well as many folk know i speak straight, no BS, just plain speaking, one time a relative of my wife was here asking what did i think about her new dress, well me being me told her, she did not look good in it.... Holy hell, wife went nuts with me, what i do wrong? You not speak nice, never do that again.

I agree. While the odd white lie may help smooth the mood, speaking straight is far better. I wouldn’t mind the odd white lie to make someone feel their dress looks nice, however the problems occur when the Health Minister can’t tell the Prime Minister a truth for fear of him causing loss of face. That’s when it gets silly and holds a country back. 

[billybob]

1 hour ago, TiT said:

Many of them also believe that the world revolves around Thailand.  The more educated ones that actually get outside the country and open their eyes to the rest of the world are far more respectable.  I'm glad that they love their country and are proud of their Thainess, I think that's great, but the hi-so's that look down on their countrymen and think their shit doesn't stink are just pathetic.  They wouldn't stand a chance without the scales tipped in their favor from the start.

I was watching a Thai comedy film in the cinema with english subtitles and the crux of the jokes was Isaan are country bumkins and the biggest laugh was when one of the characters said "falang chorp poo-ying dam"  - westerners love dark women. ie. a reference to the sex trade and westerners going with Isaan girls. By our standards most Thai's are openly racist to people of colour. That said they are respectful in their prejudices they are not a violent people nor seek out trouble per se. There is a lot we can learn from their best attributes and similarly if they are open to new ideas our liberal western perspectives. 

[Bluesofa]

46 minutes ago, billybob said:

I was watching a Thai comedy film in the cinema with english subtitles and the crux of the jokes was Isaan are country bumkins and the biggest laugh was when one of the characters said "falang chorp poo-ying dam"  - westerners love dark women. ie. a reference to the sex trade and westerners going with Isaan girls. By our standards most Thai's are openly racist to people of colour. That said they are respectful in their prejudices they are not a violent people nor seek out trouble per se. There is a lot we can learn from their best attributes and similarly if they are open to new ideas our liberal western perspectives. 

About fifteen years ago I was watching a US film in English with Thai subtitles: Meet The Fockers  (yes, that was the name btw https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290002/ )

At one point Robert De Niro arrived home and said to his wife, "Hi honey."
The Thai subtitles were captioned "สวัสดีน้ำผึ้ง" - Hello honey.
For some reason they managed to get the wrong translation of "honey". Instead of using the word meaning 'sweetheart' they used they other word meaning honey from a bee, Two completely different words in Thai.
Was the subtitle translator drunk? Who knows.

[RuralSukhothai]

On 7/9/2021 at 4:17 AM, gummy said:

Whilst I agree with your comments in is not just a Thai issue. In my experience and those of thousands of others it appears to be an Asian issue. Quite why I would ask any cultural experts to expound upon but just for some one  like myself who has worked in Asian countries it is not specific to Thailand.

....and nearly impossible to extend exaggerated Occidental comparatives and superlatives among the studious.

What might be more perplexing might be the ingrained mindset: "why can't they be like us"

[gummy]

29 minutes ago, RuralSukhothai said:

....and nearly impossible to extend exaggerated Occidental comparatives and superlatives among the studious.

What might be more perplexing might be the ingrained mindset: "why can't they be like us"

You mean whilst they have the mindset of "saving face"  us the West have the mindset of "we always know better", did I get your point ?

[RuralSukhothai]

12 minutes ago, gummy said:

You mean whilst they have the mindset of "saving face"  us the West have the mindset of "we always know better", did I get your point ?

Yeah. Something like that. 

[JohninDublin]

I can understand the concept very easily if it's a question of say two bargirls in the same bar and a customer dumps one girl in favour of another. I don't suppose in these cases it occurs to either girl, that the real problem may be the man, and that in another couple of days, he will have most likely dumped the new girl in favour of yet another girl, from possibly even the same bar?

What I don't really understand are those people who when they've made a mistake, rather than be gracious, refuses to admit the mistake and tries to turn the tables on the other person to make it look like they are in the wrong. Surely the onlookers can work it out for themselves, in which case the attempt to save face, causes them to lose even more face in the eyes of the onlookers.

What is even more perplexing to me, is watching a couple of people arguing on the internet and eventually one definitively shows that the other is wrong, at which time the loser, rather than do the gracious thing, or just keep quiet and let it pass, then tries to change the narrative to prolong the argument. And yet again there are onlookers who will form their own opinion of who is the idiot in this debate.

But why I find this so perplexing is that on the Internet, we have the advantage of anonymity. It's not as if I can get a cyberkicking, walk out onto the street, and suddenly all the passers-by are pointing me out as, "that idiot, John in Dublin who made a fool of himself on an Internet forum".

My conclusions are that when you are in the wrong, any attempts to save face, are more likely to lead to greater loss of face. Thus saving face can become an exercise in futility. I have a theory in particulal about American cops. So many of the episodes of cop violence derives from the macho-culture of the job that colleagues demand that you do not allow anyone to disrespect you, whether you are right or wrong. Consequently, you need to not only save face, but must be seen by your colleagues to be doing so. A few blasts with the Tazer, can be quite face saving under those circumstances, as long as the witnesses don't have camera phones.

Then of course, there are those incidents involving the machismo of youth. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen story of young men who were "disrespected" who then introduced a gun into the argument and are spending life behind bars. I'd like to ask them if I could, with hindsight, was the direspect they suffered really worth the price they are now paying?

For those who do think that saving face is so important, I always remember the words of my father, "If anyone ever does you a bad turn, you have the rest of your life to pay them back".