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"True Facts" getting in the way of passionate debates about vaccines


Smithydog
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Reading some of the forums today, I am impressed by the passion, however disturbed by some claimed “facts” backing up arguments. Especially around vaccines.

 I do think we need to differentiate between our opinions, what is proven fact and what we may call common sense. Also understand and remain civil if others disagree. Even what we call “common sense”, can be affected by a multitude of factors. (e.g., experiences, education, beliefs etc)

 Being sometimes overboard in the passion myself, I feel we all need to be careful in stating facts. I thought I could give you an example I saw today in another forum topic. Their passion was clear and powerful, however one statement stood out.

 It was a seemingly factual statement that VAERS showed thousands were dying from the vaccine (or words similar) to that. I was curious about this, so much so that it took my attention away from other parts of the argument. I just had to take a look for myself.

 I found that my suspicions raised were confirmed. The inference they made is at best, inaccurate. The raw data I downloaded from the register showed the report has 400,000 lines to it. Only 12 lines ticked a box that they had died from a covid vaccine. A word search found about 3,500 lines with the words ‘death” or “died” in the commentary.

 The CDC states in their disclaimer “Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality. They go on to say, “Anyone can submit a report to VAERS, including parents and patients” and “the reports alone are not proof of a link to any vaccine.” They also say that that don’t update the database with their findings from investigations or those findings of other people.

 Hence, whilst the register records the possibility of a vaccine related death, it is not right to assume Covid-19 was the cause or even contributed to the death on the scale stated. As an aside, I did see a one line showed a person died from a gunshot wound obtained as an innocent bystander! I am not sure the vaccine caused that one!

 I remember what an old maths teacher of mine once told me about facts. He cynically said, “facts are just statistics presented and influenced from our own point of view!”

 The point I am trying to make is that the passion in our arguments can sway the opinion of others Emotion already gets in the way of a passionate debate. Be careful and don’t let inaccurate “facts” hinder your argument.

 

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It is very laudable that you made the effort to check the data yourself.  However, that you only found 12 (!) alleged covid-vaccine related deaths, shows that the HHS site is difficult to navigate and get information from.

Confronted with that same difficulty, a small team of people  (themselves or their children having experienced vaccine injuries) developed the OpenVAERS project. They built openVAERS as they wanted an easy way to browse the reports in the HHS database. Once they had that, the team decided to make it public.

Do note that they do NOT accept donations or solicit fees. There is zero monetization of that site. It is purely created in order to help others browse the VAERS records and to identify the reported signals that may otherwise get missed.

Here is the link > https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data?fbclid=IwAR13k1EC87zOKKcRmZS3qX_UxTRQ8ynoHUuDGxHfVFPOc9iwOq-0n-jdR_k

As of June 25, there were 411,931 reports in that VAERS database of suspected COVID vaccine-related adverse effects, of which 6,985 deaths, 23,257 hospitalizations and 54,606 urgent care cases.

Yes, I fully agree that it is important to have your facts right and to check for yourself, so do take a look on that OpenVAERS site.

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6 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

However, that you only found 12 (!) alleged covid-vaccine related deaths, shows that the HHS site is difficult to navigate and get information from.

Occam's Razor would say that there are only 12 COVID vaccine related deaths. The HHS site is a breeze to get data off of, download, and run any manner of statistics you want on it using Excel or the database software of your choice.

Stating that it's a difficult site to use may instead reflect on an unwillingness to put in the effort to learn how to do that. OpenVaers data is neither reflective of the actual VAERS data nor internally consistent with the data it presents as true.

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15 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

It is very laudable that you made the effort to check the data yourself.  However, that you only found 12 (!) alleged covid-vaccine related deaths, shows that the HHS site is difficult to navigate and get information from.

Confronted with that same difficulty, a small team of people  (themselves or their children having experienced vaccine injuries) developed the OpenVAERS project. They built openVAERS as they wanted an easy way to browse the reports in the HHS database. Once they had that, the team decided to make it public.

Do note that they do NOT accept donations or solicit fees. There is zero monetization of that site. It is purely created in order to help others browse the VAERS records and to identify the reported signals that may otherwise get missed.

Here is the link > https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data?fbclid=IwAR13k1EC87zOKKcRmZS3qX_UxTRQ8ynoHUuDGxHfVFPOc9iwOq-0n-jdR_k

As of June 25, there were 411,931 reports in that VAERS database of suspected COVID vaccine-related adverse effects, of which 6,985 deaths, 23,257 hospitalizations and 54,606 urgent care cases.

Yes, I fully agree that it is important to have your facts right and to check for yourself, so do take a look on that OpenVAERS site.

 

15 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

It is very laudable that you made the effort to check the data yourself.  However, that you only found 12 (!) alleged covid-vaccine related deaths, shows that the HHS site is difficult to navigate and get information from.

Confronted with that same difficulty, a small team of people  (themselves or their children having experienced vaccine injuries) developed the OpenVAERS project. They built openVAERS as they wanted an easy way to browse the reports in the HHS database. Once they had that, the team decided to make it public.

Do note that they do NOT accept donations or solicit fees. There is zero monetization of that site. It is purely created in order to help others browse the VAERS records and to identify the reported signals that may otherwise get missed.

Here is the link > https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data?fbclid=IwAR13k1EC87zOKKcRmZS3qX_UxTRQ8ynoHUuDGxHfVFPOc9iwOq-0n-jdR_k

As of June 25, there were 411,931 reports in that VAERS database of suspected COVID vaccine-related adverse effects, of which 6,985 deaths, 23,257 hospitalizations and 54,606 urgent care cases.

Yes, I fully agree that it is important to have your facts right and to check for yourself, so do take a look on that OpenVAERS site.

Just to clarify, the challenge in the VAERS raw data wasn't the file. After all, is just an everyday excel file. It is the old thing that the data you take out can only be as good as the data you put in and then later update with added info or corrections. People simply haven't indicated on the submission form that death occurred and hence why the column for "died" only had 12 entries in it. 

Also, with CDC clearly stating that they don't update the raw data with the findings of their investigations, the data is incomplete and hence unreliable as to linkage. Effectively, and unfortunately, I feel this places all who use the raw data alone to quote deaths from the vaccine, in the area of assumption/opinion rather than true fact.

I'll have a fresh start by looking at the OpenVAERS database before I comment on that. Thanks for the steer to it.

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I had a look at the OpenVAERS site and the data presented. It appears that it suffers the same restrictions as the raw data I mentioned, as it is that is what they are using. They have simply taken a longer period of time beyond Jan 1, which is the date I selected. As the following statement from their site mentions.

"We do not change, modify or vet data. We take the downloads, upload them to our server and put a different face on them so they are easier to browse and get quick accurate info from. There are mistakes in the data (impossible dates are usually the most obvious), clearly, but we leave it as we get it."

A couple of things I did find interesting. For example, they highlight any vaccine related issue not just Covid-19. They present the data in an easy readable format.

However, they present summaries in such a way to suit their opinion by highlighting the data with the biggest numbers that support their opinion and doing so in red so it stands out. For example, they don't highlight the number of reports where people only had a slight reaction to a vaccine (eg skin reddening around the injection site, no other symptoms).

I know everyone else does the same and that is their right. Like others though, it hardly provides an objective view of the data.

With the restrictions on the raw data, I mentioned in a previous post, their numbers are still assumption and not accurate facts as they, like me, simply do not have all the findings of the CDC investigations and other updated medial reports. 

So in my opinion (and it is just that an opinion and others can make up their own mind!), the data cannot be used as facts unless it is made clear about the limitations of the raw data.

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