News Forum - Young British woman ‘may never walk again’ after fall from balcony in Thailand

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, cowslip said:

There is no way anyone can totally avoid human error, that is why health and safety designs systems to anticipate this.

Human errors work in different ways:

It has been shown that human error falls largely into one of three principle categories.

 First is a perceptual error. Critical information that is below the threshold for seeing - the light was too dim, the person was blinded by some glare, balcony had low contrast parameters.

 In other cases, the person made a perceptual misjudgement (a balustrade’s handrail or slippery surface or just, poorly defined glass panels

Then and far more common cause is that the critical information was missed because the person had been drinking and the design of the item in this case balcony did not accommodation this.

So if the person hadn’t been drinking there was a failure to notice because mental resources were focussed elsewhere. Often a person says they  did not "see" something plainly visible from a different perspective

Finally, the person processes the information correctly but for one reason or another doesn’t choose the correct response because of slow reactions or make the correct decision yet fail to carry it out  - e.g. fail to grab hold of the handrail.

Just saying “I’m always careful” doesn’t work because with human error, much of our information processing occurs outside of awareness

 

Sure. But better to be careful than reckless and expect the safety systems to catch you if you mess up. It’s a percentage game surely. The person who speeds and plays on his phone is far more likely to have an accident than a careful driver who doesn’t use his phone. 

[JohninDublin]

5 hours ago, Soidog said:

Yes I agree. But as H&S doesn’t feature too well in Thailand, I take whatever precautions I can. Not saying it’s fool proof but I try to limit exposure to the risk. 

I remember buying my first Travel Insurance. The opening line on the accompaning literature said, "Always behave as if you are uninsured". Wise words I think.

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

Sure. But better to be careful than reckless and expect the safety systems to catch you if you mess up. It’s a percentage game surely. The person who speeds and plays on his phone is far more likely to have an accident than a careful driver who doesn’t use his phone. 

I take that female doctors here are exempt from careful driving (and must therefore be allowed to stand close to the edge of a balcony) - as per a very recent thread in which Soidog and myself were both knocked off bicycles by female doctors on their way to/from work:

https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/20158-news-forum-bangkok-chosen-as-asia’s-2nd-most-cycling-friendly-city/?do=findComment&comment=266997

https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/20158-news-forum-bangkok-chosen-as-asia’s-2nd-most-cycling-friendly-city/?do=findComment&comment=267069

 

 

[Soidog]

2 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

I take that female doctors here are exempt from careful driving (and must therefore be allowed to stand close to the edge of a balcony) - as per a very recent thread in which Soidog and myself were both knocked of bicycles by female doctors on their way to/from work:

https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/20158-news-forum-bangkok-chosen-as-asia’s-2nd-most-cycling-friendly-city/?do=findComment&comment=266997

https://talk.thethaiger.com/topic/20158-news-forum-bangkok-chosen-as-asia’s-2nd-most-cycling-friendly-city/?do=findComment&comment=267069

Those Gals should have hazard warning lights on em front and back. “Trust me I’m a doctor”. No chance Love. I’m off!! 

[Mamachigawa]

14 hours ago, cowslip said:

Basically building regulations are an international science - time and again Thailand ignore international standards. Yet, they rely on tourism for up to 20% of their GDP - they have an obligation to their customers to maintain certain standards of safety in ALL areas. Claiming "TIT" is not an excuse, it's a reason to apportion blame.

My friend is a construction safety engineer said he has seen appalling things in Thai that would shutdown a whole job site normally. Remember now I was in a quarantine in hotel BKK 2021 watching some men paint a building for days. Did not look like they had proper harnesses.

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, Mamachigawa said:

My friend is a construction safety engineer said he has seen appalling things in Thai that would shutdown a whole job site normally. Remember now I was in a quarantine in hotel BKK 2021 watching some men paint a building for days. Did not look like they had proper harnesses.

My wife had a business where she made signs/awnings/car wrapping for businesses and hotels

 

Her brothers did the labor

 

She started with small businesses but once she started working with bigger companies like Robinson's, they had to be properly equipped 

[Vigo]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:52 AM, cowslip said:

Lots of people fall from balconies in Thailand. The design and build would not past muster in the UK or most of Europe....in the USA people would be sued.

Some of the apartment blocks in resort towns in Thailand horrify me, I can't believe the architects think they are fit for purpose.

There are of course lots of other designs that would be illegal in US/EU - notably the swimming pools that are potential deathtraps and aces of tiles floors.

And no one is obliged to accept the unit as is. One has the option of requesting a modification, or of not purchasing. The balcony on my condo unit in patong was appropriate. The balcony height on my Hua Hin rental is approppriate. Not every unit  fails, and one can decline an inferior location.or exercise appropriate caution otherwise.

[socal]

55 minutes ago, Mamachigawa said:

My friend is a construction safety engineer said he has seen appalling things in Thai that would shutdown a whole job site normally. Remember now I was in a quarantine in hotel BKK 2021 watching some men paint a building for days. Did not look like they had proper harnesses.

The whole country would grind to a complete halt if it was subject to anything like western rules and regs. But according to our stringent interpretations, Thai's should be dying like flies from everything. But they survive. Rules and regs have diminishing returns and a huge cost. 

Thailand's life expectancy ranking is only a couple years lower than the US

[Chazz76]

I have rented dozens of rooms all over Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Nepal, Burma, Hong Kong and Japan and more, most had balcony's. It's not that hard to establish if the height of the railing is inadequate. You can call for a room change or just have some common sense and stay away from the railing, it's not rocket science or dangerous. Unless you're affected by drugs and or alcohol. Most other cases I imagine in thailand recently were due to excessive exertion ( pushed off ). 

[cowslip]

12 hours ago, Soidog said:

Sure. But better to be careful than reckless and expect the safety systems to catch you if you mess up. It’s a percentage game surely. The person who speeds and plays on his phone is far more likely to have an accident than a careful driver who doesn’t use his phone. 

You're missing the point - the definition of human error takes into account that people will alway make mistakes - driving on a phone is not human error - the error is more likely to occur when someone is misusing there phone - H&S tries to minimise the results.

[cowslip]

6 hours ago, Vigo said:

And no one is obliged to accept the unit as is. One has the option of requesting a modification, or of not purchasing. The balcony on my condo unit in patong was appropriate. The balcony height on my Hua Hin rental is approppriate. Not every unit  fails, and one can decline an inferior location.or exercise appropriate caution otherwise.

Most people don't know and most people have no alternative as this is common throughout the county - looks like you haven't done a thorough check? What is your balcony height? How big is the balcony in relation to occupancy and how is the tileage and drainage? What is the balustrade made of?

[cowslip]

I think suggesting that people "don't have to" - is far from practical. 

Many people rent an apartment online as part of a holiday etc etc - it is unreasonable for them  first to measure the balustrades on arrival and then if they fail to meet the expected standard, refuse to accept the accommodation.

If they buy a place it is also unlikely that most people are aware of these dangers - (until they fall off).

There is also a conspiracy theory that is used without any evidence that people have either committed suicide or were pushed off these balconies - this kind of thinking is of course falling into the hands of the builders/developers as it diverts the blame from them.

 

[Bluesofa]

6 minutes ago, cowslip said:

I think suggesting that people "don't have to" - is far from practical. 

Many people rent an apartment online as part of a holiday etc etc - it is unreasonable for them  first to measure the balustrades on arrival and then if they fail to meet the expected standard, refuse to accept the accommodation.

If they buy a place it is also unlikely that most people are aware of these dangers - (until they fall off).

There is also a conspiracy theory that is used without any evidence that people have either committed suicide or were pushed off these balconies - this kind of thinking is of course falling into the hands of the builders/developers as it diverts the blame from them.

It's a good point about booking online, or even from a brochure.
Perhaps if potential renters had a questionnaire for the landlord to answer any pertinent questions it may help, but who knows what questions to ask, never mind whether they are even answered - truthfully or otherwise.

[cowslip]

4 minutes ago, Bluesofa said:

It's a good point about booking online, or even from a brochure.
Perhaps if potential renters had a questionnaire for the landlord to answer any pertinent questions it may help, but who knows what questions to ask, never mind whether they are even answered - truthfully or otherwise.

 

I wonder how the home country laws stand with regards to travel agents and realtors advertising and selling or renting non-compliant properties.

They may be open to litigation.

 

[Faz]

1 hour ago, cowslip said:

What is your balcony height? How big is the balcony in relation to occupancy and how is the tileage and drainage? What is the balustrade made of?

You think a hotel receptionist will be able to answer those questions?

They'll tell you whatever you want to hear to get a deposit, or they may tell you've dialled an incorrect number for the mental asylum. 

[Rookiescot]

22 minutes ago, Faz said:

They'll tell you whatever you want to hear to get a deposit, or they may tell you've dialled an incorrect number for the mental asylum.

Can I ask about my room at the mental asylum?

Does it have a balcony? How high are the railings? Is it a guest friendly mental asylum........

[cowslip]

26 minutes ago, Faz said:

You think a hotel receptionist will be able to answer those questions?

They'll tell you whatever you want to hear to get a deposit, or they may tell you've dialled an incorrect number for the mental asylum. 

I'm not sure how that connects with my comment - prt from the obvious fact, they can't  - are you referring to someone e;e's post?

[Chatogaster]

2 hours ago, cowslip said:

You're missing the point - the definition of human error takes into account that people will alway make mistakes - driving on a phone is not human error - the error is more likely to occur when someone is misusing there phone - H&S tries to minimise the results.

I don't think the point was missed; I interpret it as signifying that there should be a balance between (mindless) reliance on (H&)S and (mindful) reliance on awareness of surroundings/actions. In other words, one type of (partial) solution - pick any one - doesn't render other the type irrelevant. Put a bit stronger: if someone would advocate one type as the one-and-only solution they'd be wrong.

[cowslip]

3 minutes ago, Chatogaster said:

I don't think the point was missed; I interpret it as signifying that there should be a balance between (mindless) reliance on (H&)S and (mindful) reliance on awareness of surroundings/actions. In other words, one type of (partial) solution - pick any one - doesn't render other the type irrelevant. Put a bit stronger: if someone would advocate one type as the one-and-only solution they'd be wrong.

Then you don't understand the basic principles of H&S and human error

Edited January 5, 2023 by cowslip

[Chatogaster]

2 minutes ago, cowslip said:

Then you don't understand the basic principles of H&S and human error

I think I do, quite well even. Is there any basis for your claim to the contrary or is it just a human error?

[KaptainRob]

Enough arguing Cowslip.  You provide NO basis for 'definitions of human error & H&S issues'. 

Simple facts are:- Thailand building codes are NOT the same as UK (and many other countries); stupidity, inebriation, or other factors cause accidents and no amount of legislation can protect all people under all conditions.

Having worked in many dangerous fields during my life I can honestly say that Thailand's low H&S standards are at times alarming yet still allow for common sense to prevail.  Darwinism at work!