What are Health Services like in your country?

[TheDirtyDurian]

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/two-in-three-nurses-admit-skipping-meals-or-using-payday-loans-to-feed-their-family/

It be tough times out there. Are they making it all up? ️️ 

[Marble-eye]

10 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

The figures I have are not meaningless, they're an estimation based on my knowledge of living in the UK. If you know better then show us. 

Nurses being worse off than they were ten years ago, proves exactly that. They're worse off. Do you understand the meaning of progress. If people are becoming progressively worse off, how can that be okay? ️️ 

And again, you're fixating on one particular figure. As myself and a previous poster showed, nurses and people working in nursing could be earning far less than 36k, as low as 20k, and it would take them a long time to get to your magical figure of 36k.

FYI, reddit threads aren't really proper sources of info. Any TDH can post whatever they like, but having said that, from the link you provided.... 

"I earn 35k. So some of the replies to posts like these make me feel just a little bit sick. BUT my wife earns the same as me. 

Seriously!?

Household income is 70k!!

 

6 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

https://leftfootforward.org/2023/02/poll-reveals-massive-majority-of-public-support-nurses-striking/#:~:text=YouGov polling found nurses had,grew to 66% by December.

And whatever you think seems like you're in the minority according to recent Savanta poll. 

When you have to start using sources like leftfootforward says more about you and why you refuse to accept that £36,000 is a very good income. 

 

• Overall, we rate Left Foot Forward Left biased based on editorial positions that favor the progressive left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to a lack of hyperlinked sourcing and a failed fact check.
• https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/left-foot-forward/

So in conclusion we have established that £36,000 is a handsome amount of money to be paid to anyone, even if you don't care to admit it. So the nurses are well paid so what could be the real reason for these strikes, could it be that the only way for Labour to gain power of the country () is to strike to bring the country to its knees, because they have failed at the ballet box for 13 years. 

Here is something else for you to ponder, Labours Wes Streeting has also said that there isn't enough money to pay the rediculous pay rise the nurses are seeking, the problem we have here is the Unions are telling the public workers that it is about pay rises while themselves are using the public sector workers as tools to achieve their goal of bringing down an elected government. Do you understand the word 'democracy'.

The Labour opposition has also spoken up. Wes Streeting, Labour’s shadow health secretary made clear yesterday that he was supporting the Tories. He told The Sunday Telegraph that a Labour government could not afford the pay rises that the nurses are seeking.

Workers must insist that Lynch and Co call an indefinite general strike to see that the Tories are brought down and replaced by a Workers Government and socialism.There is no other way forward!

https://wrp.org.uk/editorials/all-trade-unions-must-strike-with-the-nurses-to-bring-down-the-tories-and-bring-in-socialism/

Mr Anderson said: "It's obvious the unions are plotting to undermine our Government. After the most testing two years since the war this country needs to come together to get back on our feet.

"The unions do not care about the hardworking taxpayers who have dug deep to keep this country going.

"All they care about is bringing down a democratically elected Government."

Mr Anderson’s views are shared by many Red Wall Tory MPs as the country braces itself for a major rail strike all week followed by public sector strikes with unions claiming 11 percent inflation means that pay offers of 3 or 4 percent from taxpayers’ money is not enough.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1628523/train-strikes-nurses-uk-summer-strike-rmt-rail-action-lee-anderson-mp-conservative

 

 

 

 

[TheDirtyDurian]

38 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

When you have to start using sources like leftfootforward says more about you and why you refuse to accept that £36,000 is a very good income. 

• Overall, we rate Left Foot Forward Left biased based on editorial positions that favor the progressive left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to a lack of hyperlinked sourcing and a failed fact check.
• https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/left-foot-forward/

So in conclusion we have established that £36,000 is a handsome amount of money to be paid to anyone, even if you don't care to admit it. So the nurses are well paid so what could be the real reason for these strikes, could it be that the only way for Labour to gain power of the country () is to strike to bring the country to its knees, because they have failed at the ballet box for 13 years. 

Here is something else for you to ponder, Labours Wes Streeting has also said that there isn't enough money to pay the rediculous pay rise the nurses are seeking, the problem we have here is the Unions are telling the public workers that it is about pay rises while themselves are using the public sector workers as tools to achieve their goal of bringing down an elected government. Do you understand the word 'democracy'.

The Labour opposition has also spoken up. Wes Streeting, Labour’s shadow health secretary made clear yesterday that he was supporting the Tories. He told The Sunday Telegraph that a Labour government could not afford the pay rises that the nurses are seeking.

Workers must insist that Lynch and Co call an indefinite general strike to see that the Tories are brought down and replaced by a Workers Government and socialism.There is no other way forward!

https://wrp.org.uk/editorials/all-trade-unions-must-strike-with-the-nurses-to-bring-down-the-tories-and-bring-in-socialism/

Mr Anderson said: "It's obvious the unions are plotting to undermine our Government. After the most testing two years since the war this country needs to come together to get back on our feet.

"The unions do not care about the hardworking taxpayers who have dug deep to keep this country going.

"All they care about is bringing down a democratically elected Government."

Mr Anderson’s views are shared by many Red Wall Tory MPs as the country braces itself for a major rail strike all week followed by public sector strikes with unions claiming 11 percent inflation means that pay offers of 3 or 4 percent from taxpayers’ money is not enough.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1628523/train-strikes-nurses-uk-summer-strike-rmt-rail-action-lee-anderson-mp-conservative

The link you are referring to took their information from Savanta and Yougov, both respected independent polling groups. 

Read the information, rather than rubbish the source. 

In case you can't be bothered, there's a link right here to YouGov:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/12/20/nurses-and-ambulance-workers-have-most-public-supp

And no, we've not established anything other than your myopia. 

And yes, you still continue with a magical figure of 36k when myself and another poster have already shown that many nurses are earning far less. 

Yes, you refuse to acknowledge that the link to the happy nurse you provided actually had a joint household income of 70k!

And no, you've still not provided any cost of living figures or shown how the ones I provided were wrong. 

And yes, you're still conflating strikers with bringing down the government. 

Ask yourself this, If nurses' pay is so great, why would they give up that salary for, correct me if I'm wrong, the £50 per day they receive from the RCN? 

And I'll ask you again, when you read stories of hardship as were in some of the previous links I provided, do you think they're making it all up? 

[Marble-eye]

2 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

And yes, you still continue with a magical figure of 36k when myself and another poster have already shown that many nurses are earning far less. 

And yes many nurses are earning far more too, keeping that a secret were we? 

"Another poster" If you think that proves your point you are vastly mistaken. He appears to be more left wing than you. 

Student nurses are of course going to be earning less, but £27,000 as a beginner is hardly peanuts is it, trust me £36,000 is serious money. 

[TheDirtyDurian]

4 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

And yes many nurses are earning far more too, keeping that a secret were we? 

"Another poster" If you think that proves your point you are vastly mistaken. He appears to be more left wing than you. 

Student nurses are of course going to be earning less, but £27,000 as a beginner is hardly peanuts is it, trust me £36,000 is serious money. 

Yes, some earn more. I never said they didn't. But as myself and another poster showed, many earn far less. Do you accept the truth in that? ️ 

You never answered though, if these salaries are so good, why are they striking? ️️ 

And please, don't just say they want to bring down the government. First RCN strike in 106 years or whatever it is. They don't exactly have a natural proclivity towards strike action!! 

You've gone a bit quiet on the Yougov poll old chap... Is that part of the left wing plot to take down the government too? ️

I'm not actually that left wing really, more middle ground. 

I do believe in a fair day's pay for an honest day's work. Didn't know that aligned me with the SWP. 

Anyways, going for a swim.  Tbc. 

 

[Marble-eye]

9 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

You never answered though, if these salaries are so good, why are they striking? ️️ 

Because it is human nature to be greedy and the corrupt unions told them to. Next

[TheDirtyDurian]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

Because it is human nature to be greedy and the corrupt unions told them to. Next

https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64065830.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=16758645039607&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

So you're saying that Pat Cullen is corrupt now are you? 

Legendary, those greedy nurses! First strike in 106 years.

Unlike those bankers and hedge fund managers, well known for their generosity and kindness of spirit... 

I see you're still silent on the YouGov poll showing overwhelming public support, and yet to provide any cost of living figures. 

You also haven't acknowledged that many nurses earn less than 36k.

Is you okay?? ️️ 

[Marble-eye]

18 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64065830.amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=16758645039607&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

So you're saying that Pat Cullen is corrupt now are you? 

Legendary, those greedy nurses! First strike in 106 years.

Unlike those bankers and hedge fund managers, well known for their generosity and kindness of spirit... 

I see you're still silent on the YouGov poll showing overwhelming public support, and yet to provide any cost of living figures. 

You also haven't acknowledged that many nurses earn less than 36k.

Is you okay?? ️️ 

I am saying that £36,000 is a nice little earner, you are the one adding other incidentals. Try to keep up.

[TheDirtyDurian]

Just now, Marble-eye said:

I am saying that £36,000 is a nice little earner, you are the one adding other incidentals. Try to keep up.

You're also saying that Pat Cullen is corrupt. Do you have anything to back that up, if so, please provide links. Don't make unsubstantiated claims as per the forum guidelines. 

36k after tax and NI is roughly £2300 per month. See my previous post on cost of living. If you have alternative figures please provide them. 

Presumably your silence on the Yougov poll is acknowledgment that the strikes do have public support and you are in the minority here

and silence on many nurses earning less than 36k a year is an acknowledgement that they do exist, ergo they will surely be struggling due to cost of living crisis. 

[Marble-eye]

1 hour ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

You're also saying that Pat Cullen is corrupt. Do you have anything to back that up, if so, please provide links. Don't make unsubstantiated claims as per the forum guidelines. 

36k after tax and NI is roughly £2300 per month. See my previous post on cost of living. If you have alternative figures please provide them. 

Presumably your silence on the Yougov poll is acknowledgment that the strikes do have public support and you are in the minority here

and silence on many nurses earning less than 36k a year is an acknowledgement that they do exist, ergo they will surely be struggling due to cost of living crisis. 

You are very good at putting your words into other posters mouths, I can only repeat what I have been saying from day one is that £36,000 is a good wage. You can twist that as much as you like but my stance will not change.

[Marc26]

8 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

You are very good at putting your words into other posters mouths, I can only repeat what I have been saying from day one is that £36,000 is a good wage. You can twist that as much as you like but my stance will not change.

I wouldn't call it a "good wage"

It's barely getting by if you live anywhere near a big city

@TheDirtyDurian had a pretty reasonable cost of living breakdown

[Marble-eye]

Just now, Marc26 said:

I wouldn't call it a "good wage"

It's barely getting by if you live anywhere near a big city

@TheDirtyDurian had a pretty reasonable cost of living breakdown

Birds of a feather, but thanks for your input.

[Marc26]

12 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Birds of a feather, but thanks for your input.

I mean it's kind of factual, can yo dispute anything in his cost of living breakdown?

[Marble-eye]

Just now, Marc26 said:

I mean it's kind of factual, can yo dispute anything in his cost of living breakdown?

I am not interested in his Mickey Mouse figures, can you prove that his figures are correct, would you like me to conjure up some figures and present them as gospel? Trust me £36,000 is a good wage, maybe not where you come from, but in the UK many workers would be only too happy to receive such a wage. And as I've tried to explain many times this is not about a pay rise this is trying to bring a democratically elected government down. 

[TheDirtyDurian]

41 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

You are very good at putting your words into other posters mouths, I can only repeat what I have been saying from day one is that £36,000 is a good wage. You can twist that as much as you like but my stance will not change.

And I'm going to repeat what you said about the RCN Union boss, when I asked why nurses would be striking for the 1st time in 106 years if their pay was so good, which was:

"the corrupt unions told them to.

So do you have anything about Pat Cullen to back that up or are you just making unsubstantiated claims? 

And okay, we get it. You believe 36k to be a good wage. Whatever. Let's just agree to disagree on that.

Can we move past that and focus on the many who don't earn that much. You do accept that not every nurse earns 36k right?

Consequently can you accept that life is tough for many nurses right now?

If 36k is plenty, at what point do things become difficult? 30k, 25k, 20k?

[TheDirtyDurian]

2 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

I am not interested in his Mickey Mouse figures, can you prove that his figures are correct, would you like me to conjure up some figures and present them as gospel? Trust me £36,000 is a good wage, maybe not where you come from, but in the UK many workers would be only too happy to receive such a wage. And as I've tried to explain many times this is not about a pay rise this is trying to bring a democratically elected government down. 

But I can prove my figures are correct as a simple search on RightMove or Zoopla will give you rental prices, Council tax bands are easy enough to come by too. 

I think I was fairly reasonable with utility and transport costs. 

If you think otherwise, then provide some alternative cost of living estimates so we can compare, as I've been asking you to do in previous posts. 

[Marble-eye]

1 minute ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

And I'm going to repeat what you said about the RCN Union boss, when I asked why nurses would be striking if their pay was so good, which was:

"the corrupt unions told them to.

So do you have anything about Pat Cullen to back that up or are you just making unsubstantiated claims? 

And okay, we get it. You believe 36k to be a good wage. Whatever. Let's just agree to disagree on that.

Can we move past that and focus on the many who don't earn that much. You do accept that not every nurse earns 36k right?

Consequently can you accept that life is tough for many nurses right now?

If 36k is plenty, at what point do things become difficult? 30k, 25k, 20k?

My total point is that £36,000 is a really good wage and whatever else you want to bring into this debate is down to you, I will not allow you to put words into my mouth. So whether you accept what I am saying or not at the end of the day, I don't give a rats tail.

[Marble-eye]

1 minute ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

But I can prove my figures are correct as a simple search on RightMove or Zoopla will give you rental prices, Council tax bands are easy enough to come by too. 

I think I was fairly reasonable with utility and transport costs. 

If you think otherwise, then provide some alternative cost of living estimates so we can compare, as I've been asking you to do in previous posts. 

So are you suggesting other nurses that don't live in London should get the same wage as those that do. Can you see where your arguement has very little merit. Maybe cut the nurses wages in other places other than London and give it to the London nurses, but let's not forget that not all of London suffers from inflated house prices or rents. You are just making a political point from the nurses as are the Unions, and which the Labour Party has been doing ad infinitum.

Anyway good luck in bringing the country to its knees and bringing this Tory government down, but seriously there is a better way to change a government and that is at the ballot box. The left have very little understanding of democracy. 

My last words to you.........£36,000 is a good wage. Sawadi krap.

 

 

[TheDirtyDurian]

19 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

My total point is that £36,000 is a really good wage and whatever else you want to bring into this debate is down to you, I will not allow you to put words into my mouth. So whether you accept what I am saying or not at the end of the day, I don't give a rats tail.

I accept that you think 36k is a good wage, and I said that I disagree with that. Moving on

I then asked you at what point do you think things would start to get difficult :30k, 25k, 20k?

I also asked you to back up your unsubstantiated claim that Pat Cullen was corrupt. I'm not putting any words into your mouth. You said this yourself. 

Seems like all you have to say is that you think 36k is a good wage, what do you base that idea on? ️️ Must have some idea of costs of living and why that wage is good? Please provide. 

[TheDirtyDurian]

10 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

So are you suggesting other nurses that don't live in London should get the same wage as those that do. Can you see where your arguement has very little merit. Maybe cut the nurses wages in other places other than London and give it to the London nurses, but let's not forget that not all of London suffers from inflated house prices or rents. You are just making a political point from the nurses as are the Unions, and which the Labour Party has been doing ad infinitum.

Anyway good luck in bringing the country to its knees and bringing this Tory government down, but seriously there is a better way to change a government and that is at the ballot box. The left have very little understanding of democracy. 

My last words to you.........£36,000 is a good wage. Sawadi krap.

There is already location allowance in nurses salary. But for sure, London and the SE with higher housing costs are going to be harder places to make ends meet. That's pretty obvious 

https://faq.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/knowledgebase/article/KA-23439/en-us

[Soidog]

Not wishing to throw 4 Star on the fire, but this is interesting from Reed who are a U.K. recruitment company. The £32k or £35k figure seems well off. These may be basic salaries before overtime, bonuses and other additions. Also don’t forget that the NHS pension scheme is very generous. It’s a scheme which is index linked to the CPI rate without limit. Many company pension schemes are limited to no more than 5% increases. This has a real value and not included in basic salary

[Soidog]

Even taking the basic of £35k, overtime is paid at 1.5T. You’d reasonably expect people to work 10%-20% OT, so let’s say 15%. On a standard 38 hour week that means they work an additional 5.7 hours a week. Their basic pay is £17:71/hour. OT is therefore paid as £26:57 x 5.7 = and additional £151/week or another £7,000 a year for 46 working weeks. This alone pushes total earnings to £42k. This excludes double time on Bank Holidays for example.  They also get a London weighting allowance and an On-call allowance. They also get 37 days annual leave after 5 years. Far more generous than most companies. This rises to 41 days (8 weeks! ) holiday after 10 years. Then there are additional payments for night shifts. Also very generous pension contributions from the employer (in Scotland this is a massive 20.9%) and index linked rises when retired.  This from Legal and Medical states:

 

We have run these calculations many times over the years and the outcomes don’t change. The percentage of your income you could need to invest in personal pensions to achieve the same level of income in retirement as the NHS pension scheme provides is often 3-4 times the amount you actually currently contribute. This of course varies by the individual, but the theme remains – the older you get the more you would need to contribute. Link below:

https://www.legalandmedical.co.uk/is-the-nhs-pension-scheme-good-value-for-money/

As you can see, an extremely valuable income that goes under the radar!

It all adds up to a lot more than the average basic salaries people quote.

In Summary:  Nurses do rather well. Like all professions, the starting rates are a challenge. But after year 5 you can have no complaints. Yes, in real terms overall remuneration has fallen since 2010 by around 10%; so have many other people. Overall however, it’s still a very decent overall remuneration package. I have little sympathy with the current strikes which are politically motivated by union leaders. 

[WilliamG]

On 1/3/2023 at 12:17 PM, Marble-eye said:

Nurses are on £32,000 a year and to suggest that they have to use foodbanks to survive is laughable. 

Some nurses are single parents with three children. Others are married to working partners with no family to look after.

You cannot say what you did.

[Marble-eye]

55 minutes ago, WilliamG said:

Some nurses are single parents with three children. Others are married to working partners with no family to look after.

You cannot say what you did.

I can and I did.. What point are you trying to make William?

[WilliamG]

On 2/11/2023 at 1:26 PM, Marble-eye said:

I can and I did.. What point are you trying to make William?

The former may need foodbanks or struggle financially, the latter do not.