What are Health Services like in your country?

[Faraday]

The NHS in the UK, continues to be in crisis, & now Ambulance staff are taking industrial action. 

"Pressure on the NHS is "intolerable and unsustainable", according to the British Medical Association (BMA) which represents doctors.

Chair of the BMA council, Professor Phil Banfield, has called on the government to "step up and take immediate action" to solve the crisis."

Smashing government response: 

The government said it recognised the pressures faced by the NHS.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-64142614 

UK government response:

"Ministers have asked the NHS pay review body to cap the increase in frontline health workers’ pay to 2% in 2023-24 to help the government achieve its ambition to curb soaring inflation."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/01/nhs-unions-2-pay-rise-next-year-could-mean-more-strikes

What are health services like in your respective countries?

Are they funded well? 

^{Let's leave Thailand out of this, ok.}

 

[Marble-eye]

The NHS is run by left wing marxists whose sole intention with these strikes is to bring down a democratic elected government. It wastes money like throwing confetti at a newly wed bride. It totally needs dismantling and an efficient newer version built. Nurses are on £32,000 a year and to suggest that they have to use foodbanks to survive is laughable. 

We now have 800 diversity managers and staff in the NHS at a total cost of £40 million a year, this is where our hard earned taxes are going, incidentally £40 million is enough to recruit another 12,000 nurses. 

They are more concerned about pronouns than healthcare, men have now to be asked if they are pregnant or not before giving blood ffs what the hell is happening. I could go on, but whats the point, nobody ever listens.

Rant over, happy new year to all. 

[JohninDublin]

On 1/3/2023 at 5:17 AM, Marble-eye said:

The NHS is run by left wing marxists whose sole intention with these strikes is to bring down a democratic elected government. I

Do you really believe that, or should I be asking for the name of your dealer? Can you name any of these "left wing marxists" running the NHS?

I don't suppose that you've considered the possibility that we have just undergone 3 years of the most incompetent gov in my lifetime?

To give you one example, take a look at the shambles surrounding the "Nightingale Hospital" at the Excel Centre (formerly the Millenium Dome). They spent about £100 mill on this project, and at the time claimed it was the world's largest hospital That claim was based on the fact that it was fitted out for 500 beds, but could be expanded to 4000 bed capacity. It closed after 13 months, having treated just 59 (FIFTY-NINE in case anyone thinks this is a typo)  patients. 

The reason for its highly predictable failure, was that hospitals require staffing ratios of about 3.5-4 employees per patient, including Doctors, Nurses, Lab Staff, Maintenance, Porters, Clerical staff etc. So the day this opened it would have required the best part of 2k staff, which it never achieved and had it reached 4000 patients, would have required about 15k staff. It coud never have attracted the staff because virtually every doctor and nurse were already working all the hours that god sends in other hospitals.

There was quite simply almost no suitably qualified staff to run it.

The truth of the matter is that during the pandemic, there were thousands of empty beds in existing hospitals. The problem was that these were in abandoned wards that had closed due to prior cuts, and in some cases, these wards had been closed in response to austerity as long as 10 years ago. 

That is just one example of this dire goverment running the UK. If there are any Marxists involved, I'd say they were of the Groucho variety and were all inside Downing St.

Just one other incident that I think is worth a mention. Just as the world was beginning to realise how serious Covid was likely to be, Bojo announced that the gov had reserved 8k beds in the private sector to deal with the overflow from the NHS. I applauded this measure. None of these beds were ever used. So when the bed-blocking oldies were being moved to make way for Covid cases, they were transferred to Care Homes, in spite of the fact that many were showing symptoms that indicated Covid. The policy was later declared to be unawful, but only after 20k of the elderly died because of it.

[Marble-eye]

31 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

Do you really believe that, or should I be asking for the name of your dealer? Can you name any of these "left wing marxists" running the NHS?

I don't suppose that you've considered the possibility that we have just undergone 3 years of the most incompetent gov in my lifetime?

To give you one example, take a look at the shambles surrounding the "Nightingale Hospital" at the Excel Centre (formerly the Millenium Dome). They spent about £100 mill on this project, and at the time claimed it was the world's largest hospital That claim was based on the fact that it was fitted out for 500 beds, but could be expanded to 4000 bed capacity. It closed after 13 months, having treated just 59 (FIFTY-NINE in case anyone thinks this is a typo)  patients. 

The reason for its highly predictable failure, was that hospitals require staffing ratios of about 3.5-4 employees per patient, including Doctors, Nurses, Lab Staff, Maintenance, Porters, Clerical staff etc. So the day this opened it would have required the best part of 2k staff, which it never achieved and had it reached 4000 patients, would have required about 15k staff. It coud never have attracted the staff because virtually every doctor and nurse were already working all the hours that god sends in other hospitals.

There was quite simply almost no suitably qualified staff to run it.

The truth of the matter is that during the pandemic, there were thousands of empty beds in existing hospitals. The problem was that these were in abandoned wards that had closed due to prior cuts, and in some cases, these wards had been closed in response to austerity as long as 10 years ago. 

That is just one example of this dire goverment running the UK. If there are any Marxists involved, I'd say they were of the Groucho variety and were all inside Downing St.

Just one other incident that I think is worth a mention. Just as the world was beginning to realise how serious Covid was likely to be, Bojo announced that the gov had reserved 8k beds in the private sector to deal with the overflow from the NHS. I applauded this measure. None of these beds were ever used. So when the bed-blocking oldies were being moved to make way for Covid cases, they were transferred to Care Homes, in spite of the fact that many were showing symptoms that indicated Covid. The policy was later declared to be unawful, but only after 20k of the elderly died because of it.

Of course I believe John or else I wouldn't have written it, do you think that any government whether Labour or Tory could do anything with this NHS, all too easy to blame the Tories all the time (btw, I hate this lot of socialist conservatives). 

Do you think the NHS is broken with the people that are running the whole shebang, do you think a nurse is poorly paid and needs to strike because she cannot manage on only £32,000 a year and has to use foodbanks to survive, could it have anything to do with the Marxist Unions bullies wanting to bring down a democratically elected government. Do you think that the NHS has been politicalized by all governments, or is it the fault of just the Tories. How many times have we been told that the NHS has just hours left, get some more of the hard earned tax payers money thrown down the NHS sewers. 

All governments are to blame for the mess that this misused, mismanaged and abused institution has become, if it was a horse you would shoot it. 

[Rookiescot]

On 1/3/2023 at 12:17 PM, Marble-eye said:

We now have 800 diversity managers and staff in the NHS at a total cost of £40 million a year, this is where our hard earned taxes are going, incidentally £40 million is enough to recruit another 12,000 nurses.

So 800 managers are costing 40 mill per year and thats enough to recruit 12000 nurses?

Only if you pay the nurses 3333 quid a year.

[Marble-eye]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So 800 managers are costing 40 mill per year and thats enough to recruit 12000 nurses?

Only if you pay the nurses 3333 quid a year.

Sorry added an extra 0, should have read 1200 extra nurses. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Marble-eye said:

Sorry added an extra 0, should have read 1200 extra nurses. 

So an extra 1200 nurses across the whole of the UK? That makes a massive difference.

[Marble-eye]

22 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So an extra 1200 nurses across the whole of the UK? That makes a massive difference.

Every little helps, but isn't the point that our taxes are not being utilised to the good of the NHS, do we really need 'diversity managers' on £44,000 - £76000 a year, can we not provide a better service, the NHS is not all about throwing money at it, that money we give to the NHS needs to be spent in a more careful manner for the good of us all and I'm sorry but I just don't see that. But to just blame the Tories for the state of the NHS is totally irresponsible and highly unfair, Labour are as much to blame as the Tories. The whole country is on its knees, train drivers on £75000 a year striking for more money, they are getting paid more than airline pilots, please don't tell me these strikes are not political because I won't believe it. Bring back matron!

But on the plus side the British Army made a better job of checking the passports than Border Control, everything ran more efficiently.

Anyway every time I talk about the failing NHS the veins on my head start to swell and pump at double quick time, lights out. 

[Marc26]

I would say overall, our "free healthcare" is pretty decent, but it's not free

I probably "pay" more for my healthcare here in taxes(both income and consumption taxes) than I paid for healthcare in US

 

I do get extended benefits health insurance from my work that I pay $225cad/mo for my wife and I and it covers quite a lot of things

One of the best things it is covers registered massages to $1200/each per year, as well as prescriptions, dentist

 

But my healthcare and insurance was top notch in the US

I had a pretty rare nervous system disorder back in my late 20's

Within 2 days(3 different doctors had no idea what it was) I was seeing the Chief of NueroSurgery in one of the best hospitals in the country

 

That wouldn't likely happen in Canada

 

 

 

[JohninDublin]

On 1/2/2023 at 11:39 PM, Faraday said:

The NHS in the UK, continues to be in crisis, & now Ambulance staff are taking industrial action. 

"Pressure on the NHS is "intolerable and unsustainable", according to the British Medical Association (BMA) which represents doctors.

Chair of the BMA council, Professor Phil Banfield, has called on the government to "step up and take immediate action" to solve the crisis."

Smashing government response: 

The government said it recognised the pressures faced by the NHS.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-64142614 

UK government response:

"Ministers have asked the NHS pay review body to cap the increase in frontline health workers’ pay to 2% in 2023-24 to help the government achieve its ambition to curb soaring inflation."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/01/nhs-unions-2-pay-rise-next-year-could-mean-more-strikes

What are health services like in your respective countries?

Are they funded well? 

^{Let's leave Thailand out of this, ok.}

Just my own views on the NHS in the UK from where I hail. 

Right now I have grave concerns about it's current problems. I also have a deep mistrust of any Tory gov to run it. I recall when the US insurers were lobbying against Obamacare, they sought out Tories that were critical of the NHS. It turned out that searching through the Commons, The Lords and MEP's where they investigated the best part of 1000 Tory Politicians, they actually managed to find 1 MEP who was opposed to the NHS. He more or less said what all Tories have said about all nationalised industries (excluding the NHS), "Business is far better at running business, then govs ever can be" I have always thought that the views more commonly spoken by Tories, have never been applied to the NHS simply because it would be a huge vote loser.

Anyway, true to form, the Insurance lobby wheeled him out so that he can blast the NHS. It's what they do in the US. 999 scientists say Climate Change is real, and the Oil Lobby wheel out 1 scientist who expresses doubts. Notably, of the approximately 1500 politicians who sat in the UK or EU parliament, they could not find anyone else to agree with him. 

However, I will make my case for the NHS by comparing it to the American insurance system. The following figures are mostly from memory and date back to the Obamacare debate.

For me there are two two benchmarks to be considered: efficacy and cost. 

With regard to the first of these, it surprised me to read that you are twice as likely to die in a UK hospital than in a US version. On the face of it, not a good start for the NHS until you consider that many Americans will do their best to avoid hospitals because of the fear of medical bankruptcy. Over 700k cases in the last recorded year.

How about cost? The US spends almost 2X what the UK does per capita, yet the real measure of a country's health is "life expectancy". Sick countries have lower expectancy rates, and the US is 2 years less than the UK. 

Value for money? On a typical premium in the US, 15% goes as profit to the insurer. Another 15% goes to admin costs, a large part of which are lawyer fees. Another 15% goes as profit to the care provider, meaning that only 55% is spent on actual treatment. In the NHS, 9% is spent on admin. 

The US has better and more advanced treatments. True. But usually restricted to those who can afford them, or with better than average insurance. That is another point in favour of the UK. Buying insurance in the US is like buying phone minutes. You can have your basic 200 minutes/200 texts, right up unlimited minutes/texts/and data. The more you pay, the better the coverage. And on that point, I recall a Trump presser on healthcare where he shouts to one of his minions, asking "How long is the UK NHS waiting time for a hip replacement"? "116 days was the answer he was given. Had I been there, I would have asked, "How long do you have to wait for a hip replacement, if you dont have insurance"? In the UK you get the same treatment regardless of how much you pay.

So today, we have an NHS that is in serious crisis. I put much of this down to the incompetence of the worst and most dysfunctional gov in my lifetime. What it will look like by the time they finally leave office, I dread to think, but 10 years ago, they were well ahead of the US in most of the impotant metrics. Now I feel like I am witnessing the decline of a much loved friend.

 

[JohninDublin]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

Of course I believe John or else I wouldn't have written it, do you think that any government whether Labour or Tory could do anything with this NHS, all too easy to blame the Tories all the time (btw, I hate this lot of socialist conservatives). 

Do you think the NHS is broken with the people that are running the whole shebang, do you think a nurse is poorly paid and needs to strike because she cannot manage on only £32,000 a year and has to use foodbanks to survive, could it have anything to do with the Marxist Unions bullies wanting to bring down a democratically elected government. Do you think that the NHS has been politicalized by all governments, or is it the fault of just the Tories. How many times have we been told that the NHS has just hours left, get some more of the hard earned tax payers money thrown down the NHS sewers. 

All governments are to blame for the mess that this misused, mismanaged and abused institution has become, if it was a horse you would shoot it. 

I note your failure to name any of these Marxist Union bullies. If that were true, I am sure it would have been reported in the Daily Heil. Come to think of it, they woulld have reported even if it were untrue.

[Marble-eye]

3 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

I note your failure to name any of these Marxist Union bullies. If that were true, I am sure it would have been reported in the Daily Heil. Come to think of it, they woulld have reported even if it were untrue.

And I notice you always blame the Tories for our failing health service when the United Kingdom consists of Wales and Scotland, which both have devolved government's, the NHS in Wales is run by Labour and in Scotland by the SNP, are those two devolved governments running their health services better than England, (rhetorical question with a touch of sarcasm).

[Marc26]

10 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

 

The US has better and more advanced treatments. True. But usually restricted to those who can afford them, or with better than average insurance. That is another point in favour of the UK.

That is not really true

Especially when you consider 90 million people are on Medicare/Medicaid(govt healthcare)

 

The issue with not being able to afford care or avoiding care usually comes with the less lethal issues

If you have a terminally illness or an emergency, you will receive the same care as anyone...........you may end up with a massive bill depending on your insurance. But even then, it is a small % of people since the vast majority are insured either through their employer or through the Govt

 

[Rookiescot]

43 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Every little helps, but isn't the point that our taxes are not being utilised to the good of the NHS, do we really need 'diversity managers' on £44,000 - £76000 a year, can we not provide a better service, the NHS is not all about throwing money at it, that money we give to the NHS needs to be spent in a more careful manner for the good of us all and I'm sorry but I just don't see that. But to just blame the Tories for the state of the NHS is totally irresponsible and highly unfair, Labour are as much to blame as the Tories. The whole country is on its knees, train drivers on £75000 a year striking for more money, they are getting paid more than airline pilots, please don't tell me these strikes are not political because I won't believe it. Bring back matron!

But on the plus side the British Army made a better job of checking the passports than Border Control, everything ran more efficiently.

Anyway every time I talk about the failing NHS the veins on my head start to swell and pump at double quick time, lights out. 

The reason you need things like diversity managers is because otherwise the NHS ends up in court getting hammered.

The reason the country is on its knees is because of Brexit. I know you guys do not like to hear this but thats the sad reality.

I have little sympathy for train drivers. They are way overpaid for what their job actually entails. Its a bus on rails rather than the road after all.

But the NHS is on its arse. All that "clap for the NHS" nonsense. The simple fact is the Conservatives are doing what they have always done before they privatise something. Starve it of funding so the service becomes crap and people dont care about it any more.

They did it with the railways. Now the service is even worse and ironically costs the UK government more.

Post office the same.

Passports.

Good grief the list goes on for pages.

Anyway have a beer and chill. At the end of the day there is bugger all we can do about it.

[Rookiescot]

6 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

And I notice you always blame the Tories for our failing health service when the United Kingdom consists of Wales and Scotland, which both have devolved government's, the NHS in Wales is run by Labour and in Scotland by the SNP, are those two devolved governments running their health services better than England, (rhetorical question with a touch of sarcasm).

In Scotland, by any metric, the NHS is better than England or Wales.

[Marc26]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

 

I have little sympathy for train drivers. They are way overpaid for what their job actually entails. Its a bus on rails rather than the road after all.

 

I have never really understood this demand or need for raises in certain sectors every year or so

 

My brother was a policeman, and seemed they were fighting for a raise every year

 

Most working people don't get a raise every year

[Marble-eye]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

The reason you need things like diversity managers is because otherwise the NHS ends up in court getting hammered.

The reason the country is on its knees is because of Brexit. I know you guys do not like to hear this but thats the sad reality.

I have little sympathy for train drivers. They are way overpaid for what their job actually entails. Its a bus on rails rather than the road after all.

But the NHS is on its arse. All that "clap for the NHS" nonsense. The simple fact is the Conservatives are doing what they have always done before they privatise something. Starve it of funding so the service becomes crap and people dont care about it any more.

They did it with the railways. Now the service is even worse and ironically costs the UK government more.

Post office the same.

Passports.

Good grief the list goes on for pages.

Anyway have a beer and chill. At the end of the day there is bugger all we can do about it.

This thread has turned into an I hate the Tories and I'm out of here.

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

I have never really understood this demand or need for raises in certain sectors every year or so

My brother was a policeman, and seemed they were fighting for a raise every year

Most working people don't get a raise every year

People need a raise every year because of inflation. 

Inflation is hard wired into capitalism. 

Have you ever seen or heard of a country suffering from deflation?

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Marble-eye said:

This thread has turned into an I hate the Tories and I'm out of here.

Thats not fair ME.

At the present time given the circumstances would Labour be doing a better job?

Probably not.

[Marble-eye]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Thats not fair ME.

At the present time given the circumstances would Labour be doing a better job?

Probably not.

Exactly, both parties are not worth wand.

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

People need a raise every year because of inflation. 

Inflation is hard wired into capitalism. 

Have you ever seen or heard of a country suffering from deflation?

But the vast majority of people don't get raises every year

 

If you work in a bank, hotel, retail, etc, you don't get raises every year

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Every little helps, but isn't the point that our taxes are not being utilised to the good of the NHS, do we really need 'diversity managers' on £44,000 - £76000 a year, can we not provide a better service, the NHS is not all about throwing money at it, that money we give to the NHS needs to be spent in a more careful manner for the good of us all and I'm sorry but I just don't see that. But to just blame the Tories for the state of the NHS is totally irresponsible and highly unfair, Labour are as much to blame as the Tories. The whole country is on its knees, train drivers on £75000 a year striking for more money, they are getting paid more than airline pilots, please don't tell me these strikes are not political because I won't believe it. Bring back matron!

But on the plus side the British Army made a better job of checking the passports than Border Control, everything ran more efficiently.

Anyway every time I talk about the failing NHS the veins on my head start to swell and pump at double quick time, lights out. 

If Labour were at fault, the Tories have had 12 years in which to fix the problem. 

Regarding train drivers, what has that got to do with anything? Apart from the fact that starting salaries are £30k rising to £69k, they are not on strike, are members of ASLEF, a completely different union. RMT is striking. The median salary of an RMT member is £31k. Cleaners who are members are on minimum wage.

As for the veins on your head, I am not surprised that you face such a problem considering your willingness to quote all these claims which are clearly untrue or irrelevant. A bit of due diligence on your own part might alleviate that problem.

[JohninDublin]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

And I notice you always blame the Tories for our failing health service when the United Kingdom consists of Wales and Scotland, which both have devolved government's, the NHS in Wales is run by Labour and in Scotland by the SNP, are those two devolved governments running their health services better than England, (rhetorical question with a touch of sarcasm).

Why don't you answer my question about Marxists? Why don't you give us all the benefit of this knowedge that seems unique to you.

As for the devolved NHS countries, they still rely on central funding from Westminster, so their independence is limited. Regardless, NHS Scotland has managed to gain acceptance of a 7.5% pay offer by Unite Union. Compare that with the 2%, since increased to 3%, offered NHS England staff.

[JohninDublin]

55 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

But the vast majority of people don't get raises every year

If you work in a bank, hotel, retail, etc, you don't get raises every year

The over-riding question is how many people will have to die before this is resolved. Polls are showing that Nurses, Ambo drivers, Firefighters, Teachers, Bus Workers, Postal Workers have a positive score when it comes to public support. The first group to have a negative score are rail workers (-6%). I believe that this is because of claims that Train drivers are all earning £60k a year. The real figure is £30k to £69k. Those at the top end have about 15 years service and are on the Express train routes. The problem is that those who are earning that amount, are in a non-striking Union, but somehow, carriage cleaners on minimum wage, are thought to be earning the same as train drivers.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/12/20/nurses-and-ambulance-workers-have-most-public-supp

Interestingly, YouGov which is part owned by the former Minister Sajid David, states that it is the RMT strike which is the least popular of the strikes. But if you judge this on negative scores, Uni staff, Baggage handlers, Civil Servants, London Transport staff and Driving examiners have higher net negative scores ranging from -8 to -17%

I hope it doesn't happen, but I think if the bodies start to pile up, the finger will be pointed at the gov.

[JohninDublin]

2 hours ago, Marc26 said:

That is not really true

Especially when you consider 90 million people are on Medicare/Medicaid(govt healthcare)

The issue with not being able to afford care or avoiding care usually comes with the less lethal issues

If you have a terminally illness or an emergency, you will receive the same care as anyone...........you may end up with a massive bill depending on your insurance. But even then, it is a small % of people since the vast majority are insured either through their employer or through the Govt

In which case they will probably face medical bankruptcy, the leading cause of all bankruptcies in the US.

https://apexedi.com/medical-bills-the-leading-cause-of-bankruptcy-in-the-united-states/