Staying Thailand with TR. How long is too long ?

[Jeremy]

Hello. I am a Chinese national based in the UK. I would like to fly to Thailand next month with Visa on arrival but I am worried if I have used TR visa to live in Thailand too long in the last year.

I stayed in Thailand from late Nov. 2021 to late Feb. 2022 with a TR visa (extended for 30 days) and then again entered Thailand in April 2022 with TR visa and departed in June. Upon my entry in April, I was investigated by the immigration officer, who said that I stayed a long time with the last TR visa and I am now using another TR visa so soon that he is suspecting whether I am a real tourist, but he let me in anyway.

I know that many countries share an immigration rule that in any year you should not stay in that country for more than a total of 180 days with tourist/visitor visa. I don't know if there is such a rule in Thailand's tourist visa policy, whether written or silently agreed. If anyone knows about this I would very much appreciate it if you let me know. Anyway,  till now I stayed a total of 110 days in Thailand in 2022 with tourist visa. If I added the 35 more days at the end of 2021 it will make 145 days in total. So if the "total days that I stayed in thailand in a year with the TR visa" is an important determiner on whether I am abusing the visa, I am within the allowed range.

And as for whether I am a real tourist, at least I consider I am. I worked hard and studied hard before the pandemic, and when I got my PhD degree in 2021 I decided to relax a bit for a couple of years. So I just take some part-time jobs in The UK with graduate visa and spend long holidays in Thailand. What I did and what I planned to do in Thailand was enjoying the local food (food sucks in England), going to the sunny beaches (weather sucks in England), get some affordable massage, have some night life and travel extensively in the country, pretty much those things done by a typical western backpacker, except that maybe I have a slightly bigger budget and longer holiday time. Well to be more precise I may not be a typical "tourist" because as I said what I do is more like living than sightseeing, but I definitely comes here for HOLIDAY purpose and I do not work in Thailand.

You might want to ask why only Thailand? Why not Vietnam for instance? The answer is for Chinese nationals, choices are extremely limited now. Some countries are not accepting tourists whose nationality is China. Vietnam, for instance, include China into the 80 countries whose citizens could apply for a one month tourist e-visa, but the small print said that "excluding those Chinese citizens who hold E-passports". Truth is that ALL Chinese passports (I mean the mainland Chinese) are E-passports now, so what they are saying is something like "We welcome all humans into our country, except those who have a head on their neck." And my passport is issued in Xinjiang. Many Asian countries (especially countries with large muslim population and rich countries like Korea and Japan) just do not issue visas to holders of passports in Xinjiang or at least have some discrimination policy against us (perhaps they see us as potential muslim refugee seekers, which they do not welcome). Thailand is one of the few Asian countries who do not have dicrimination against Xinjiang passports. As for going back to my own country? That is not an option. I don't want to explain why. 

I have contacted a Chinese agent who cooperate (or collude? ) with the Thai immigration. They promised me that as long as I don't have any overstay or crime history in Thailand (which I did not have), at the price of 3000 baht, they can offer me a VIP service of entering Thailand accompanied by a "hospitable immigration officer" free of any queueing and investigation. But I don't like to pay for the 3000 if I can avoid it, nor do I want to be pointed to as "that fxxking Chinese who cuts the line" or a person that encourages corruption.

Any advice for my trip? Thanks a lot in advance.

[Faz]

Hi Jeremy,

There is only a written policy limit, restricting Visa exempt entries at land borders to 2 per year.

Thailand has no written policy on the limitation of staying as a tourist in Thailand, it's completely at the discretion of the entry clearance officer. It would be wise though to work on the basis of 180 days per year without raising suspicions or questioning.

You don't state how long you plan to stay on this next proposed trip?

Do you just have permanent residency status in the UK, or British citizenship and British passport?
 

[Jeremy]

Thanks a lot for you answer.

I plan to stay 28 days for this trip.

I do not have British citizenship/British passport. I am a Chinese citizen and hold a Chinese passport.

Depending on your definition of the term, I am not sure if I even have "permanent residency status" in the UK. I am now on a 3-year graduate visa (used to be called PSW visa) after I got PhD degree from a UK university. It is a long term visa that grants me a residency status in the UK. Some Asian countries like Thailand would sometimes refer to my current residency status in The UK as "permanent residency" and hence grants me the eligibility of applying for a Thai visa to the Thai embassy/consulates in the UK, but literally speaking my residency in The UK is NOT permanent. However actually there is no such thing as "permanent residency" in The UK (or at least literally). There is instead "indefinite leave to remain", which I may be able to apply for after a couple of years in the UK.

[Faz]

Thailand's Immigration should be using the 'calendar' year in calculating any period of stay, i.e. January to December, so theoretically you've only stayed 110 days so far this year.

Entering VOA or VE on multiple occasions is more prone to raising suspicions and questions being asked than if you enter on a Tourist Visa. IMO if you can show a return ticket and proof of possessing a 3-year graduate visa for the UK, or any kind of documentation from the Uni, if questioned again, that should satisfy an Immigration officer you'll return to continue your studies. Usually, a frequent tourist would have 2/3 month breaks in returning.

27 minutes ago, Jeremy said:

Depending on your definition of the term, I am not sure if I even have "permanent residency status" in the UK. I am now on a 3-year graduate visa (used to be called PSW visa) after I got PhD degree from a UK university. It is a long term visa that grants me a residency status in the UK. Some Asian countries like Thailand would sometimes refer to my current residency status in The UK as "permanent residency" and hence grants me the eligibility of applying for a Thai visa to the Thai embassy/consulates in the UK, but literally speaking my residency in The UK is NOT permanent. However actually there is no such thing as "permanent residency" in The UK (or at least literally). There is instead "indefinite leave to remain", which I may be able to apply for after a couple of years in the UK.

Yeah, off-topic, but fully aware of all that.
Foreigners married to British subjects after 5 years can qualify to apply for 'indefinite leave to remain' and receive a 'residence permit' which we refer to as now obtaining the right to 'permanent residency'.
The 5 qualifying years of jumping through hoops and being under Immigration control comes to an end.
Been there, done it. 

[Jeremy]

Thank you so much for your answer.

3 hours ago, Faz said:

or any kind of documentation from the Uni, if questioned again, that should satisfy an Immigration officer you'll return to continue your studies.

I used to do that when I was a PhD student. I usually get a letter from the Uni that proves my student status, and a "letter of re-entry" to confirm that I am on vaction and will return to the UK on a certain date. Indeed this was done mostly for me to reenter the UK when I am back from the holiday, but I remember once the Thai immigration officer also had a look at them when I was entering their country. However, now that I have graduated, I no longer have to , nor am I able to, go back to my studies. Actually I did not have such long vacations to stay in Thailand back when I was a PhD student. I remember the holiday allowance was 56 days per calendar year. 56 days might look decent, but definitely not long enough to allow me to stay in Thailand for 100+ days. Hmm, when put this way, no wonder the Thai immigration will be suspicious of such "long holidays".

However, the graduate visa is one of the few visas that allows a person to stay in the UK while not having to work or study there. So maybe I just need to explain to the Thai immigration officer the nature of the visa and the fact that I can take as long holidays as I want. However, now I have done some research myself, I think there are two more important points of concern:

1. The subtle difference between "living" and "being a tourist" in Thailand. I think what I did and what I planned to do in the country can be interpreted either way. And it seems it's for the immigration officer to decide whether I am abusing a tourist visa by trying to live in their country with the visa.

2.Many Chinese people are committing crimes in Thailand. This is mainly because of the digital totalitarianism in China. Security cameras are everywhere in the country and all communication on phone (phone call, text messages, wechat messages) completely monitored by the authorities using unethical but highly advanced tools of big data and AI recognition. This environment has become extremely unfavorable not only to the political dissidents, but also the criminals. So they move to South-east asia to do the bad things they find very difficult to do in China now, like online gambling and scam.

That is why when a Thai immigration officer sees a Chinese citizen, they would definitely have the concern whether this person is to commit crimes in their country. I sort of understand this.

3 hours ago, Faz said:

The 5 qualifying years of jumping through hoops and being under Immigration control comes to an end.

Congratulations. We Chinese acutally have a term for those years --"移民监". It literally translates into "immigration jail", referring mainly to the fact that one cannot leave the UK (or US or other western countries) for extended periods of time when they are spending years in that country for the purpose of getting permanent residency. It is very sarcastic. They want to migrate to a certain country but they feel staying in that country for years is like spending years in jail. There are complicated reasons behind it.

[KevinT]

Did you finally make it to the trip? Did you have any problem clearing customs? 

[Jeremy]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:11 PM, KevinT said:

Did you finally make it to the trip? Did you have any problem clearing customs? 

I did. But the clearing the border control was far from smooth. And my experience is perhaps of little reference value to you and people from other nationalities.

As a frequent visitor of Thailand I have been keeping track of of the news among the Chinese community there. Before I flew to Bangkok from London in the beginning of Dec. last year, I learned from them that because Thailand is cracking down on the Chinese who works in semi-illgal industries (In Chinese 灰产 or grey industry) in Thailand, they became more strict on issueing ED visas , and crack down on the retirement visas of the people who bribes the officials to get the visa without depositing the money required in a Thai bank (most Chinse people do that, because even if most of them have the funds in China, China's control on currency exchange and outflow became insane these years and it is just impossible to move the 80,000 Baht fund from China to Thailand legally for individuals), and at border control they question and invesigate the every Chinese national, no matter leaving or entering, just like criminals (provided that they don't pay and go through the "priority entry service" that I later will explain). Some frequent Chinese visitors are also regarded abusing the tourist visa or VOA and taken into custody. They are not allowed to go to other coutries where they have residency or other kinds of visa and be deported to China and be forced to pay the very expensive ticket.

 

My trip was already planned but I definitely didn't want to end up like that. Fortunately (or shall I use this word?), the corrupt Thai border officials and the "resourceful" Chinese agents who collude with them have always been advertising a "priority entry service" to the Chinese customers -- with a small fee of 4,000 baht, they would guarantee your entry, with no investigation at all and extreme hospitality from the happy immigration staff, provided that you don't have overstay and other criminal records in Thailand.

 

 I contacted an agent used the service and it was almost as described. I was shocked at how welcoming and humble that a Thai immigration could look in front of me. Oh just except that with that humble and smiling face, the gentleman kindly asked me for an additional 5,000 on top of that 4,000, saying "it's an extraodinary time for the Chinese" and "you have visited too often"; "please understand". Well I fully understood that despite his humble and smiling face, he has all the power and I am but a fish on his chopping board, but I did not easily agreed to pay that and started bargaining with the official like a typical Thai person would do when they received a fine or something. Finally I we agreed on the total price of 7,500. Of course I have to pay another 2,200 for my VOA. It should be 2,000 but they just charged 200 more. I was greeted by other immigration staff like a king.

 

However, this period of Thailand's de-facto sanction on Chinese visitors ended by the end of last year. By the time I traveled back to the UK in January there was no longer additional questions and requests of seeing all kinds of documents at the Thai departure immigration control, even if I am Chinese. I heard from other Chinese people that when they enter Thailand they were also no additional investigation.

 

Despite that I travelled to Thailand a bit often and stayed a bit long in 2022, I am an honest tourist and went to thailand to enjoy the beaches, food and local culture, and I did not stay as long as many border runners. In 2020 and most of 2021 (until December) I did not go to Thailand at all due to Covid. I consider myself unlucky to travel to Thailand during this "extradinary period of time" and my experience has little reference value to people from other countries.

 

That said, what I can say for sure is that 4000 baht "priority entry service" is still there. It is mainly advertised and operated by the Chinese agents, but the service is not only restricted to Chinese citizens. As long as a person doesn't have overstay records and other criminal records in Thailand, they can use the service for 4000 baht or so. I would strongly advise against using this, for reasons that I don't need to explain. I will not use this service ever again in the future.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Jeremy