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Russia launched “kamikaze drones” into Ukraine’s capital city of Kyiv this morning. This news comes just after Russia’s President Vladimir Putin claimed on Friday that there was no need for massive strikes on Ukraine.  Kyiv Mayor Vitali Klitschko said that at least one person, a woman, has been killed in the attacks, Al Jazeera reported. Klitschko said another person remains under the ruble, as rescue operations continue.  Klitschko said in a Telegram that multiple buildings were damaged, and one caught fire from the strike in the city’s central Shevchenkiv district. Residents were forced to shelter in place as medics and rescuers […]

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Just now, Rookiescot said:

You find the death of civilians amusing Fanta?

Not at all. I find your parroting of Ukraine’s propaganda to be laughable. Massive drone attacks targeting civilians yet only 1 person killed. 

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36 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Not at all. I find your parroting of Ukraine’s propaganda to be laughable. Massive drone attacks targeting civilians yet only 1 person killed. 

It's now four:

“We’ve got already 4 people dead under the ruins of the building in the Shevchenkivsky district which was hit by the Russian terrorist drone,” Vitali Klitschko said on Telegram. “The rescuers found another body of a man there. The rescue operation is ongoing. There could be some other people under the rubble.”

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-10-17-22 

And yet unfortunately could still go higher. The real issue is it appears Russian is now exclusively targeting the civilian population (think Hitler and London). The drones in question, while not the most cutting edge are quite accurate. Unlike Russia's massive carrier killer missiles which are lucky to land within 50km of their target. These drone pretty much hit what they are flown at. No more excuses of: "well they were aiming at a military target".

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55 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Not at all. I find your parroting of Ukraine’s propaganda to be laughable. Massive drone attacks targeting civilians yet only 1 person killed. 

 

At least four people have been killed by a kamikaze drone attack on a residential building in Kyiv, the city mayor has said.

Vitali Klitschko said on Telegram: "Four people have already died under the rubble of a house in the Shevchenkiv district of the capital, which was hit by a Russian terrorist drone.

"The rescuers discovered and retrieved another body – that of a dead man. Search and rescue operations are ongoing. There may still be people under the rubble. Three victims were hospitalised. Two of them are employees of the state emergency service."

Earlier it emerged a couple expecting a baby in three months were among those killed.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-war-latest-014652477.html

 

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5 hours ago, EdwardV said:

And yet unfortunately could still go higher. The real issue is it appears Russian is now exclusively targeting the civilian population (think Hitler and London). The drones in question, while not the most cutting edge are quite accurate. Unlike Russia's massive carrier killer missiles which are lucky to land within 50km of their target. These drone pretty much hit what they are flown at. No more excuses of: "well they were aiming at a military target".

The article says 1 person killed and that is what I commented on. 1 death is a tragedy however to claim it was a massive swarm of quite accurate drones targeting civilians seems disingenuous and more propaganda than fact. The “return on investment” alone for the expenditure of the drones seems to debunk the intention to only kill civilians en masse as claimed by Ukraine’s General Staff. If Russia wanted to kill civilians then they would have sent their swarms of drones into the crowded university classrooms which are in the same areas the drones struck. 1 person or 10 people dead is a tragedy but is far more likely to be collateral damage rather than a targeted effort against civilians as Russia continues to strike energy, transportation and military targets inside Ukraine.

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5 hours ago, Faz said:

At least four people have been killed by a kamikaze drone attack on a residential building in Kyiv, the city mayor has said.

Vitali Klitschko said on Telegram: "Four people have already died under the rubble of a house in the Shevchenkiv district of the capital, which was hit by a Russian terrorist drone.

"The rescuers discovered and retrieved another body – that of a dead man. Search and rescue operations are ongoing. There may still be people under the rubble. Three victims were hospitalised. Two of them are employees of the state emergency service."

Earlier it emerged a couple expecting a baby in three months were among those killed.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-war-latest-014652477.html

You are likely unaware that in March 2022 Ukraine passed a law that criminalised the intentional or unintentional dissemination of  any information deemed negative for Ukraine’s military effort. This includes the location of missile, drone, bomb strikes and misses, damage sustained and military movements etc etc. Simply put, the only messages we see from the censored and muzzled “free” press in Ukraine are Kyiv approved messages. Ukraine has been very successful in the battle for hearts and minds since the start of the war. This latest spin of  drone strikes “targeting civilians” is another example of that. People immediately believed the intent of the drone swarm attack as stated by Ukraine’s General Staff  and didn’t even think to question it. This war is a tragedy and Russia should never have started it but that is a seperate issue. Emotions should not get in the way of factual reporting.

TIP: Don’t believe everything you read or everything a politician tells you. They both lie. Frequently. 

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3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

but is far more likely to be collateral damage rather than a targeted effort as Russia continues to strike energy, transportation and military targets inside Ukraine.

Collateral damage from what? What military target did they hit to cause collateral damage? Regardless that excuse would make more sense if the drones weren’t hitting apartment buildings. Even crappy Iranian drones usually hit what they flown into. See that’s the key. The operator can see what the drone is headed toward in real time. These drones where flown into the buildings on purpose. Now you can point out there is better bang for your buck hitting other targets. However you can’t deny the drones were actually flown into the buildings on purpose. 

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3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Collateral damage from what? What military target did they hit to cause collateral damage? Regardless that excuse would make more sense if the drones weren’t hitting apartment buildings. Even crappy Iranian drones usually hit what they flown into. See that’s the key. The operator can see what the drone is headed toward in real time. These drones where flown into the buildings on purpose. Now you can point out there is better bang for your buck hitting other targets. However you can’t deny the drones were actually flown into the buildings on purpose. 

How would we know due to Ukraine’s censorship laws? Drones and missiles are full of gravity and even when shot down or deflected by electronic warfare countermeasures they have to fall somewhere or hit something. We discussed this in the Ukraine thread. You cannot prove the buildings were deliberately targeted and you cannot prove that no infrastructure targets or military targets existed in the vicinity of the explosions. We are simply drawing conclusions based on what we are told and we are not being told the full and complete story. It is a waste of time, effort, resources and money to target an apartment building in Kyiv when Russia has a 1,000+ km long front to defend against the advancing UAF. It makes no sense to me and we can agree to disagree.

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57 minutes ago, Fanta said:

It is a waste of time, effort, resources and money to target an apartment building in Kyiv when Russia has a 1,000+ km long front to defend against the advancing UAF.

Depends on your objective. If it's to punish the Ukrainian people and try to break their will, it makes perfect sense. I would argue a couple of hundred 40kg warhead drones would make little difference on a 1,000 km long battlefield. Personally, I would use them on the battlefield, but clearly Putin prefers to blast civilians. 

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22 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Personally, I would use them on the battlefield, but clearly Putin prefers to blast civilians. 

On one hand you claim Russia is running low on munitions while on the other you claim they are using, and therefore wasting, them in an effort to break the will of the resolute Ukrainian civilians. Armies fight wars not civilians and last time I checked it wasn’t the UAF in retreat. If Putin really wants to cow Ukraine’s civilians into submission he would nuke Kyiv not wage an unsustainable war against civilians - it is as simple and as ugly as that. This indiscriminate bombing theory dovetails nicely with the idea of an frustrated yet powerful Putin hiding in a bunker lashing out like a petulant child with the tools of an army at his disposal so it is presented as such by Kyiv and amplified by MSM and others. It doesn’t mean it is true. Back in the real world one of the real targets of the week long missile and drone attacks is Ukraine’s electrical grid and it is getting hammered. The rolling blackouts and the collapse of the electrical export business are undeniable. Attention can be diverted away from the loss of productivity in at least the industrial & transportation sectors and also damage to military facilities by claims of civilians being targeted. You know the press motto and Ukraine exploits it for public sympathy to get much needed aid & support - “If it bleeds, it leads.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-attacks-hit-energy-infrastructure-north-central-ukraine-kyiv-2022-10-17/

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7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

On one hand you claim Russia is running low on munitions while on the other you claim they are using, and therefore wasting, them in an effort to break the will of the resolute Ukrainian civilians.

Russia is running low, hence why they are forced into buying drones from Iran (which violates UN sanctions, ones that Russia voted for). It's only a waste if it's not your objective to fly them into civilian buildings. While I do agree the action is more likely to harden the will of the Ukrainians. However, Putin wouldn't be the first dictator to bombard cities (think Hitler and London) against military logic. 

 

13 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Armies fight wars not civilians and last time I checked it wasn’t the UAF in retreat.

Not if your objective is to cleanse the land of Ukrainians in general. We both know the best way to create refugees is to bomb them and their infrastructure. Once you get them to leave Ukraine, at least half will never return. Those who remain are either relocated (the nice way to say it), or well ... Bucha. 

 

16 minutes ago, Fanta said:

If Putin really wants to cow Ukraine’s civilians into submission he would nuke Kyiv not wage an unsustainable war against civilians - it is as simple and as ugly as that.

Except nuking Kyiv crosses a line which would result in action by NATO against the Russian army. Considering the trouble Russia has with Ukraine, it's not something to bring upon yourself. Never mind the economic and political fallout which would result. After all that has happened in these last seven months, you really don't see Russia waging war against Ukraine's army and its citizens. There have been way too many apartment buildings, hospitals, schools, and shopping mall bombed to believe that. By your logic, Hitler never would have bombed London till the last day of the war.  

 

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11 hours ago, Fanta said:

Not at all. I find your parroting of Ukraine’s propaganda to be laughable. Massive drone attacks targeting civilians yet only 1 person killed. 

The campaign has only just started. The German buzz bombs of WWII were ineffective in their early use, but became quite proficient at the killing of civilians. whether  it is 1 or 100 non combatants, the war crime exists, and the use of these explosive devices against civilians is a war crime. There is no need to bomb residential apartment buildings or non military power stations during the heating season.

Russia has now prostituted itself to the Iran regime and the ramifications are intense. This article provides some background; https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/10/russias-use-iranian-drones-ukraine-hints-reliance-iran     Of particular interest was this paragraph  If Russian imports of Iranian UAVs do not bother Saudi Arabia, the UAE or Israel much, then the joint Russian-Iranian modernization of drones, based on the experience of a large-scale rather than local conflict, will be perceived extremely painfully, even taking into account the limited industrial capabilities of Russian enterprises specializing in UAV production.  If I was one of these countries I would be concerned about the potential for the drone to drop a nuclear payload. Adding to the problem is the reported presence of Iranian Republican Guard training unit.  The last time those troops were deployed in Syria, Israel  with the tacit support of Jordan and the UAE, bombed them. Russia is really showing itself to be devoid of scruples when it teams with Iran.

Europeans are getting a lesson in realpolitik now. As each and every Iranian drone explodes in Ukraine,the German arguments of befriending and trading with Iran are shown to have been idiotic. Once again, the Polish FM and the USA  have been proven right when they warned against such a "normalisation". 

 

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5 hours ago, Fanta said:

You are likely unaware that in March 2022 Ukraine passed a law that criminalised the intentional or unintentional dissemination of  any information deemed negative for Ukraine’s military effort. This includes the location of missile, drone, bomb strikes and misses, damage sustained and military movements etc etc.

But these aren't attacks against the Ukraine military on the front lines.
They are against civilian infrastructures, including schools and hospitals, a long way from where Ukrainian military are positioned.

6 hours ago, Fanta said:

TIP: Don’t believe everything you read or everything a politician tells you. They both lie. Frequently. 

Pictures and videos don't tell lies, unless you're suggesting they're staged.

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11 hours ago, EdwardV said:

It's now four:

“We’ve got already 4 people dead under the ruins of the building in the Shevchenkivsky district which was hit by the Russian terrorist drone,” Vitali Klitschko said on Telegram. “The rescuers found another body of a man there. The rescue operation is ongoing. There could be some other people under the rubble.”

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-10-17-22 

And yet unfortunately could still go higher. The real issue is it appears Russian is now exclusively targeting the civilian population (think Hitler and London). The drones in question, while not the most cutting edge are quite accurate. Unlike Russia's massive carrier killer missiles which are lucky to land within 50km of their target. These drone pretty much hit what they are flown at. No more excuses of: "well they were aiming at a military target".

Please provide proof that these were not military targets. Oh you can't? 

In what way are these "terrorist" drones? There is a war going on... You spout so much propaganda it's absurd. War crimes have very definite definitions just because the media say it's a war crime does not make it so. These actions if they are crimes need to be investigated by an independent agency before they can be classed as war crimes and then if they are crimes the people responsible will be prosecuted if they survive the war. Given the accuracy of these drones it is likely that they were not sent at random targets and the buildings hit almost certainly have genuine military significance. You don't waste expensive ordnance on random targets when you can do the same job with much cheaper missiles or artillery. The Ukrainians will of course claim that all the targets are not military because that fits their innocent victim narrative, just like the Russians will claim all targets are military. The truth is the first victim in any conflict, don't be a gullible fool we must take all the propaganda from both sides with a pinch of salt. 

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54 minutes ago, Tim_Melb said:

Please provide proof that these were not military targets. Oh you can't? 

Besides the fact I didn’t use the word terrorist or war crime. What you ask is called proving a negative. 

 

59 minutes ago, Tim_Melb said:

You don't waste expensive ordnance on random targets when you can do the same job with much cheaper missiles or artillery.

These drones are much cheaper than any Russian missile, and Kyiv isn’t in artillery range. 

 

1 hour ago, Tim_Melb said:

the buildings hit almost certainly have genuine military significance.

Please provide proof these buildings contain military significance. Unlike you, I won’t ask the proof of a negative. 
 

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5 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Not if your objective is to cleanse the land of Ukrainians in general. We both know the best way to create refugees is to bomb them and their infrastructure. Once you get them to leave Ukraine, at least half will never return. Those who remain are either relocated (the nice way to say it), or well ... Bucha. 

Why do you think there is Objective to cleanse the Land of Ukrainians? Who told about that? If it will be so, russian soldiers will shoot everyone who just moving. But it is not. Please look carefuly and watch news with details, when russian make a bomb, a very few of civilians are die. Very few. The objective is Nazi in Ukraine, Military Buildings and etc. Not civilian.

About Bucha theres is a lots of proof that Ukranian make to show up Russian from bad side. 

I hear about news that russian military taking Viagra pills to rape Ukrainian women. Who gonna belive in bullshit like this? For what? 

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5 minutes ago, gluber said:

Why do you think there is Objective to cleanse the Land of Ukrainians? Who told about that? If it will be so, russian soldiers will shoot everyone who just moving. But it is not. Please look carefuly and watch news with details, when russian make a bomb, a very few of civilians are die. Very few. The objective is Nazi in Ukraine, Military Buildings and etc. Not civilian.

About Bucha theres is a lots of proof that Ukranian make to show up Russian from bad side. 

I hear about news that russian military taking Viagra pills to rape Ukrainian women. Who gonna belive in bullshit like this? For what? 

Why do you think there is Objective to cleanse the Land of Ukrainians? Who told about that?

Why do you think that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine in the first place and started killing their citizens, there must be a reason, think hard.

About Bucha theres is a lots of proof that Ukranian make to show up Russian from bad side. 

Are you in denial about the holocaust too?

I hear about news that russian military taking Viagra pills to rape Ukrainian women. Who gonna belive in bullshit like this? For what? 

There is evidence that will make it stand up in court.

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15 hours ago, EdwardV said:

The real issue is it appears Russian is now exclusively targeting the civilian population (think Hitler and London). 

Hitler in London

Rosevelt in Hamburg ,Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki 

Kennedy to Nixon in Nam 

Isn't "colateral damage", civilians, a well known fact / target in wars? To break resistence?

And "exclusively targeting the civilian population", even taking in account that the russian Army seems to be in a bad state, but: I am pretty certain, if they wanted to kill "exclusively" civilians, they could do that in bigger numbers.

Yes, they target infrastructure and people getting killed, who aren't active war personal. But that is war.

As long as no one is trying to set up a truce, that will go on and on and on.

And Ukraine will use it for demanding more weapons and money and claim the moral high ground.

And the body count will rise. And the chance of an escalating strategy change will also.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Fanta said:

You are likely unaware that in March 2022 Ukraine passed a law that criminalised the intentional or unintentional dissemination of  any information deemed negative for Ukraine’s military effort. This includes the location of missile, drone, bomb strikes and misses, damage sustained and military movements etc etc. Simply put, the only messages we see from the censored and muzzled “free” press in Ukraine are Kyiv approved messages. Ukraine has been very successful in the battle for hearts and minds since the start of the war. This latest spin of  drone strikes “targeting civilians” is another example of that. People immediately believed the intent of the drone swarm attack as stated by Ukraine’s General Staff  and didn’t even think to question it. This war is a tragedy and Russia should never have started it but that is a seperate issue. Emotions should not get in the way of factual reporting.

TIP: Don’t believe everything you read or everything a politician tells you. They both lie. Frequently. 

I find it amazing that people are in complete denial when it comes to war propaganda. In a conflict or a war, communication has been used as a propaganda tool since the first newspaper has been published, a tool that is being used more and more as communication technologies have evolved. In this case like in any other case, Russia is using it, Ukraine is using it. But for some it seems that everything coming from Russia are lies, everything coming from Ukraine is the truth. Now for some people it is just pure naivety or mainstream narrative brain washing. But for the others, it is either denial or dishonesty. Either way, I do not get it...

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18 hours ago, Fanta said:

Not at all. I find your parroting of Ukraine’s propaganda to be laughable. Massive drone attacks targeting civilians yet only 1 person killed. 

Yeah I should be parroting Putins propaganda like you.

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2 minutes ago, Manu said:

I find it amazing that people are in complete denial when it comes to war propaganda. In a conflict or a war, communication has been used as a propaganda tool since the first newspaper has been published, a tool that is being used more and more as communication technologies have evolved. In this case like in any other case, Russia is using it, Ukraine is using it. But for some it seems that everything coming from Russia are lies, everything coming from Ukraine is the truth. Now for some people it is just pure naivety or mainstream narrative brain washing. But for the others, it is either denial or dishonesty. Either way, I do not get it...

There is an easy way to tell the difference. Do they call it a war or a "special military operation"?

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