American expats in Thailand continue to urge US to provide vaccines to citizens overseas

[Stardust]

13 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Exactly as do those from Europe, Australia or the USA who migrate to Thailand.  There's no difference whatsoever - absolutely none.

NO THEY DON'T!  That's completely untrue!

Do people on a tourist visa have the right to work in Europe, the UK, Aus or the USA? The right to full access to Medicare in Aus or the NHS in the UK?*

No, of course they don't! In the UK if they're working and paying the same taxes as Brits they still have to pay a hefty surcharge for access to NHS cover even if they never use it!

... and how about getting that elusive "visa"? 

Try getting a retirement visa in the EU, UK, USA or Aus - no equivalent even exists!

Well it "might be", but what's being claimed is reciprocity when no reciprocity exists. It's ignoring reality - there is no reciprocity, and to claim it for one thing and ignore all others is pure hypocrisy.

Edit: forgot the '*': for what it's worth, as a Brit and an Aussie I don't need a visa for either, but neither am I entitled to NHS in the UK or Medicare in Aus as I live here (Thailand).

Yoo are pure liar stop to spread fake news! I am origin from europe and in our family we are europeans and south esat asians. Thais who live in Europe have the same rights like Europeans including from our Family and we know. It is pure gatbage what are you wroting and not true! They get health insurance and social insuramce and have full access to the healthcare system!

[Stardust]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

No they don't - what absolute tripe.

What right of residency do they have?  Or right to work? A visa on arrival?

They have the same rights to a Covid vaccine, but it's absurd to draw comparisons based on one factor in isolation.

Dont talk lies here! Thais have the same rights like europeans when they live in Europe. I am from europe and we have also Thais in our family or relatives who live in Europe and I know the laws of my country where i grow up and I lnow many Thais living in Europe! IT IS NOT TRUE what you are saying and wrong again!

[Stonker]

3 minutes ago, Stardust said:

You are wrong again they have the same rights in Europe. If they are legally there or married they dont need a work permitt, can own propererty or land, can own a company or open one, get social security and health insurance. Absolute wrong again what you thonk to know and I know a lot of Thai who live in Germany!

This is so blinkered and ignorant it barely merits a reply.

 

Thais (or anyone else, now including Brits) in Europe do not have the "same rights" as members of the EU, even married or with a visa.  It's simply rubbish.

 

Of course SOME rights are the same, including most of those you've cherry picked - in most of Europe there is NO entitlement to "get social security and health insurance" just because you're in the country "legally" (with a valid visa).

 

It's just rubbish, and that's being polite. 

 

A visa that gives you a temporary right to be in a country doesn't confer the same rights as a national of that country - it gives you some but not others, in any and every country, and they vary from country to country.

The idea that a temporary visa to any country gives you the same rights as a national from that country is just so stupid it defies belief.

 

 

[Stardust]

59 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

You maybe right, but in the situation where a Thai migrates to Europe or Australia or USA they do have all rights. But even if they only have a Visa, they still get most of the rights and protections as afforded to the locals. 

But I think it might be about rights to get a vaccine. As Biden has said and as doing, all people in USA are being vaccinated - not just the locals - that is also the case in Australia. I understand that this is also the case in Europe. Thailand however, is only vaccinating Expats who meet their owen needs - Expats in tourist spots like Phuket, and those who are working for a Thai company.  Expats who have lived in Thailand for years are not being looked after - despite many of them being old and with medical conditions.  When I see and hear a young Thai in Thailand say they have been vaccinated, whereas far more deserving and needing people like @Sgtsabai are still waiting to get anything (even a booking) it makes me angry too.

It is not true what stonker say and absolute wrong. Thais have the same rights when they are living in europe and full access health care system, social security can own property etc etc. I know the laws of my country and know enough Thais in Europe including relatives from Thailand. It is absolute not true! Yes but sure he know it better than Thais and Europeans about Europe and Thailand. In our family we have Europeans and South east Asians including Thais.

[Stardust]

14 minutes ago, Stonker said:

This is so blinkered and ignorant it barely merits a reply.

Thais (or anyone else, now including Brits) in Europe do not have the "same rights" as members of the EU, even married or with a visa.  It's simply rubbish.

Of course SOME rights are the same, including most of those you've cherry picked - in most of Europe there is NO entitlement to "get social security and health insurance" just because you're in the country "legally" (with a valid visa).

It's just rubbish, and that's being polite. 

A visa that gives you a temporary right to be in a country doesn't confer the same rights as a national of that country - it gives you some but not others, in any and every country, and they vary from country to country.

The idea that a temporary visa to any country gives you the same rights as a national from that country is just so stupid it defies belief.

They got health insurance and social security and I know it personaly. Stop spreading false infos and not mix Thaitourists with Thais who live or work in Thailand! 

[Stardust]

Just now, Stardust said:

They got health insurance and social security and I know it personaly. Stop spreading false infos and not mix Thaitourists with Thais who live or work in Thailand! 

And you really think you can explain me the laws of my own country and people? And explain all my friends who living together with Thais in europe maried and not married and relatives Thais who live in Europe. Really?!

[Stonker]

15 minutes ago, Stardust said:

It is not true what stonker say and absolute wrong. Thais have the same rights when they are living in europe and full access health care system, social security can own property etc etc. I know the laws of my country and know enough Thais in Europe including relatives from Thailand. It is absolute not true! Yes but sure he know it better than Thais and Europeans about Europe and Thailand. In our family we have Europeans and South east Asians including Thais.

 

31 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Dont talk lies here! Thais have the same rights like europeans when they live in Europe. I am from europe and we have also Thais in our family or relatives who live in Europe and I know the laws of my country where i grow up and I lnow many Thais living in Europe! IT IS NOT TRUE what you are saying and wrong again!

Your ignorance defies belief, but being generous maybe it's a language problem.

 

What do you mean by "living in"?  Working? Resident?  Naturalised?  Or just there on a visa, which is what I and anyone else commenting here is talking about?

 

To keep it simple, take the nearest visa Germany has to an AO Retirement Extension. You claim to know the laws of your country, so you name it - it shouldn't be hard. Does that give you "full access health care and social security" and all other rights a national has (residency, employment, etc) ?

 

Or just take the normal tourist visa, if the Retirement extension is beyond you.  Does that give you full rights, etc?

 

Of course it doesn't, any more than it does for a German in Thailand, nor does it in any country although obviously every country is different.

 

Sorry (OK, I'm not, as there are limits to my patience), but the idea that just by getting a visa to visit a country you get the same rights to "full access health care and social security" and every other right that a national has who lives there and has worked there all their life just defies belief.   I've simply never come across this level of asinine ignorance before.

 

[Stonker]

16 minutes ago, Stardust said:

and you really think you can explain me the laws of my own country and people? And explain all my friends who living together with Thais in europe maried and not married and relatives Thais who live in Europe. Really?!

No, I don't think I can explain anything to you.

[Stardust]

34 minutes ago, Stonker said:

This is so blinkered and ignorant it barely merits a reply.

Thais (or anyone else, now including Brits) in Europe do not have the "same rights" as members of the EU, even married or with a visa.  It's simply rubbish.

Of course SOME rights are the same, including most of those you've cherry picked - in most of Europe there is NO entitlement to "get social security and health insurance" just because you're in the country "legally" (with a valid visa).

It's just rubbish, and that's being polite. 

A visa that gives you a temporary right to be in a country doesn't confer the same rights as a national of that country - it gives you some but not others, in any and every country, and they vary from country to country.

The idea that a temporary visa to any country gives you the same rights as a national from that country is just so stupid it defies belief.

I personally know the laws and helped already with fill in the forms and the process and sure there are some rules you have to live minimum 6 month in Europe per year otherwise you get no title or access in the beginning. And if you apply for a german passport for example you need to learn german and pass a test. But first the title to stay after 6 to 8 years you can claim a european passport. It is allowed to have Thai passport and a European passport. And I know the procederes very well because of doing it and for the family. We have Italy, German, Suisse, USA, Thailand,Singapore and Hong Kong in our family.

[TobyAndrews]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

Except none of that ever happened, @TobyAndrews.

The British and Swedish didn't "invent" the AZ / Oxford vaccine. The team was based at Oxford uni, but it was far from all British (and none were Swedish).

Britain hasn't given "1000s of doses to Thailand" or anyone else. They haven't given away even one dose.

They didn't "Open a factory in Thailand to produce this vaccine, with the supervision of the British." Astra Zeneca, a multi-national pharmaceutical company (not "Britain") sold the technology to Siam BioScience to produce their vaccine, in a factory that was already there and open (but that had never produced any vaccines and has apparently yet to produce one dose commercially).

Ah ha. This is Isaan John isn't it?

Which changed to Simon Small? Your style shows . . .

Well anyway, the Prime minister, and several of the government were vacinated last year with the Astro/Zeneka vaccine.

How did they acquire this vaccine? Could it be part of a batch the British had given Thailand?

Siam BioSCience delivered the first AstaZeneka vaccine to the Thailand ministry of Health before June the 7th - look it up.

You disputed this before and I had to post a simple post of one syllable words so you could undersatand the post.

I also gave you some dates, and some links. Did you not read it?

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by TobyAndrews
mistake

[MikeTexas]

20 hours ago, dimitri said:

And they don't have to organize that in all countries either. There are plenty of countries where everyone just gets vaccinations. It is about providing vaccinations to compatriots living in countries that cannot do it themselves. Like Thailand.

In case you missed the news, America has purchased and is donating 500,000,000 pfizer vaccines to 92 different low income countries.  They aren't sending them out to their own citizens but to the countries.  Again, would it make more sense to set up organizations in every country or just give the vaccines to the countries in need?  I would say the later. 
 

[AussieBob]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Exactly as do those from Europe, Australia or the USA who migrate to Thailand.  There's no difference whatsoever - absolutely none.

NO THEY DON'T!  That's completely untrue!

Do people on a tourist visa have the right to work in Europe, the UK, Aus or the USA? The right to full access to Medicare in Aus or the NHS in the UK?*

No, of course they don't! In the UK if they're working and paying the same taxes as Brits they still have to pay a hefty surcharge for access to NHS cover even if they never use it!

... and how about getting that elusive "visa"? 

Try getting a retirement visa in the EU, UK, USA or Aus - no equivalent even exists!

Well it "might be", but what's being claimed is reciprocity when no reciprocity exists. It's ignoring reality - there is no reciprocity, and to claim it for one thing and ignore all others is pure hypocrisy.

Edit: forgot the '*': for what it's worth, as a Brit and an Aussie I don't need a visa for either, but neither am I entitled to NHS in the UK or Medicare in Aus as I live here (Thailand).

Calm down stonker - we can agree to disagree without getting so angry.

My Thai wife migrated to Aust and we have Thai friends that have arrived on a Visa - working, family, tourist etc.

 

[AussieBob]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Fair enough, vaccines should be available without reference to nationality, but how about the many Thais who are "deserving and needing people" too who are still waiting for vaccines while the tourists in Phuket have been vaccinated?

The Thai hospital staff who haven't been vaccinated who've caught Covid from patients in the hospitals where they work, so the hospitals have to be closed?

I'm not defending the Thai vaccination procurement or roll out as it's way beyond indefensible, but blaming racism or nationalism for its failures and the failure to vaccinate equitably is denying reality.

I think we agree that all should be vaccinated and the Thai Govt got it wrong about preferences.

In Aust it is given based on need and age - not so in Thailand that is clear.

 

[AussieBob]

25 minutes ago, MikeTexas said:

In case you missed the news, America has purchased and is donating 500,000,000 pfizer vaccines to 92 different low income countries.  They aren't sending them out to their own citizens but to the countries.  Again, would it make more sense to set up organizations in every country or just give the vaccines to the countries in need?  I would say the later. 
 

Good point, but China gave doses to other countries like Thailand for free - on the basis that they also vaccibate their citizens in that country. 

[Stonker]

58 minutes ago, Stardust said:

I personally know the laws

In that case you should have no problems at all answering the simple questions I asked you, namely:

 

 

What do you mean by "living in"?  Working? Resident?  Naturalised?  Or just there on a visa, which is what I and anyone else commenting here is talking about?

To keep it simple, take the nearest visa Germany has to an AO Retirement Extension. You claim to know the laws of your country, so you name it - it shouldn't be hard. Does that give you "full access health care and social security" and all other rights a national has (residency, employment, etc) ?

Or just take the normal tourist visa, if the Retirement extension is beyond you.  Does that give you full rights, etc?

 

From what you seem to be saying, you're looking at those who have  migrated to Germany, or been  naturalised German, with German citizenship - totally different to what's being discussed or commented on, and actually the polar opposite which is that nationality and type of visa shouldn't matter.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges - migrants to Germany, who have German citizenship, with tourists and visitors to Thailand.

 

Totally irrational.

 

Compare like to like - tourists to tourists, and migrants to migrants - and you'll find a totally different story to yours.  You'll find mine.

 

... and for what little it's worth, clearly you don't "know the laws" at all, since apart from in very limited circumstances you're not allowed to have German and Thai dual nationality. Plenty do, but it's not allowed.

 

 

[Stonker]

41 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Calm down stonker - we can agree to disagree without getting so angry.

Actually, @AussieBob, I don't think we're disagreeing at all! 

... and I'm not getting "angry", I just have limited tolerance for those who either have no idea what they're talking about but insist they do, or who just tell porkies.

... and, for what little it's worth,  I haven't migrated anywhere!

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

I think we agree that all should be vaccinated and the Thai Govt got it wrong about preferences.

In Aust it is given based on need and age - not so in Thailand that is clear.

Agreed entirely -100% - absolutely - beyond any possible doubt

 

That affects Thais just as much as foreigners, though.

[dimitri]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

Do people on a tourist visa have the right to work in Europe, the UK, Aus or the USA? The right to full access to Medicare in Aus or the NHS in the UK?*

No, of course they don't! In the UK if they're working and paying the same taxes as Brits they still have to pay a hefty surcharge for access to NHS cover even if they never use it!

 

 

You are very badly informed.

 

I can speak for The Netherlands, because that is where I come from. Immigration rules are very different in Europe. But much more honest. To give an example:

 

If you are married to a Dutch citizen and move to The Netherlands you will get a Dutch passport after 3 years. Unless you don't want. At that moment you are equal, you are not different than other Dutch citizens. You can work, pay taxes, buy land, you have health insurance. If you lose your job you will get unemployment benefits, if you don't make enough money to pay the rent you can get subsidized housing etc. You will get a pension. Everything. And that passport is something nobody can take away from you, even not if you get a divorce after 3 years and 1 day.

 

In Thailand I meet foreigners who live here for 10, 20, 30 years and who still have to extend their visa ever year. They still have to report their location every 90 days because they are a threat to national security.

 

This is where problems come from. You cannot compare people living here on temporary visa with people on tourist visa in Europe. In Europe they would have a new passport. In Thailand they are still visitors with no rights. And for a B quality vaccination you are at the back of the queue.

 

 

 

[dimitri]

54 minutes ago, Stonker said:

... and for what little it's worth, clearly you don't "know the laws" at all, since apart from in very limited circumstances you're not allowed to have German and Thai dual nationality. Plenty do, but it's not allowed.

 

You are allowed to have both.  It is not good that you bring falsehoods without any knowledge as being 100% truth.

 

Sitting here and looking at my daughter with 2 nationalities and matching passports.

 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, TobyAndrews said:

Ah ha. This is Isaan John isn't it?

Which changed to Simon Small? Your style shows . . .

Sorry, I can't be bothered to go down this particular rabbit warren, where if someone disagrees with you then you accuse them of being a sock.

 

If I recall, @Paco was accused of being @Isaan John a couple of days ago.

 

1 hour ago, TobyAndrews said:

Well anyway, the Prime minister, and several of the government were vacinated last year with the Astro/Zeneka vaccine.

How did they acquire this vaccine?

According to Thailand and Astra Zeneca, they bought it from Astra Zeneca.  I doubt they're both lying.

1 hour ago, TobyAndrews said:

Could it be part of a batch the British had given Thailand?

Only if Britain's lying, since Britain's said repeatedly they haven't given any vaccines to any other countries yet.

 

1 hour ago, TobyAndrews said:

Siam BioSCience delivered the first AstaZeneka vaccine to the Thailand ministry of Health before June the 7th - look it up.

You disputed this before and I had to post a simple post of one syllable words so you could undersatand the post.

I also gave you some dates, and some links. Did you not read it?

Why would I need to look it up? I'm well aware of it, and I've never disputed it before and I'm not disputing it now.

 

You must have me confused with someone else.

 

Again.

[Stonker]

15 minutes ago, dimitri said:

You are very badly informed

Not "badly informed" at all!

 

Tell me anything I've written or you've quoted which is incorrect.  

 

Anything at all.

18 minutes ago, dimitri said:

I can speak for The Netherlands, because that is where I come from. Immigration rules are very different in Europe. But much more honest. To give an example:

If you are married to a Dutch citizen and move to The Netherlands you will get a Dutch passport after 3 years. Unless you don't want. At that moment you are equal, you are not different than other Dutch citizens. You can work, pay taxes, buy land, you have health insurance. If you lose your job you will get unemployment benefits, if you don't make enough money to pay the rent you can get subsidized housing etc. You will get a pension. Everything. And that passport is something nobody can take away from you, even not if you get a divorce after 3 years and 1 day.

So what?

I've never suggested in any way that the rules are the same everywhere, but the complete opposite - what part of "they vary from country to country" isn't clear?

 

28 minutes ago, dimitri said:

In Thailand I meet foreigners who live here for 10, 20, 30 years and who still have to extend their visa ever year. They still have to report their location every 90 days because they are a threat to national security.

Again, as before, so what?

 

30 minutes ago, dimitri said:

This is where problems come from. You cannot compare people living here on temporary visa with people on tourist visa in Europe.

Agreed 100%.

Unfortunately that's exactly what you've just done. Exactly.

Maybe it would help if you re-read your comment.

 

35 minutes ago, dimitri said:

In Europe they would have a new passport. In Thailand they are still visitors with no rights.

Quite possibly, if they met / failed to meet the nationality requirements.

Again, though, so what?

You're not just "comparing people living here on temporary visa with people on tourist visa in Europe" which you said was a "problem" and you "cannot do" but you've gone even further and you're comparing "people living here on temporary visa" with foreign nationals living in their own country, even if they're newly naturalised citizens!

 

Surely, given your own comment, you can see how wrong the comparison is?

[Stonker]

42 minutes ago, dimitri said:

You are allowed to have both.  It is not good that you bring falsehoods without any knowledge as being 100% truth.

Sitting here and looking at my daughter with 2 nationalities and matching passports.

Before you make that sort of claim, that what I am saying is a "falsehood without any knowledge as being 100% truth", I hope that you verified it and weren't stupid enough to assume that just because Dutch law allows dual citizenship in a wide number of circumstances including by birth that German law does the same for those naturalised?

 

Or did you not check anything at all?

 

Had you checked you would have found the following as standard on all German Embassy English language websites, as the opening paragraph:

 

"German citizenship law is based on the principle of avoiding multiple citizenships.  As a consequence anyone applying for German citizenship will generally be required to give up their other citizenship(s) and German citizens who apply for a foreign citizenship will automatically lose their German citizenship."

 

The paragraph following that lists the exceptions.

 

No need for an apology.

 

 

 

 

[Stardust]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

In that case you should have no problems at all answering the simple questions I asked you, namely:

What do you mean by "living in"?  Working? Resident?  Naturalised?  Or just there on a visa, which is what I and anyone else commenting here is talking about?

To keep it simple, take the nearest visa Germany has to an AO Retirement Extension. You claim to know the laws of your country, so you name it - it shouldn't be hard. Does that give you "full access health care and social security" and all other rights a national has (residency, employment, etc) ?

Or just take the normal tourist visa, if the Retirement extension is beyond you.  Does that give you full rights, etc?

From what you seem to be saying, you're looking at those who have  migrated to Germany, or been  naturalised German, with German citizenship - totally different to what's being discussed or commented on, and actually the polar opposite which is that nationality and type of visa shouldn't matter.

You're comparing apples and oranges - migrants to Germany, who have German citizenship, with tourists and visitors to Thailand.

Totally irrational.

Compare like to like - tourists to tourists, and migrants to migrants - and you'll find a totally different story to yours.  You'll find mine.

... and for what little it's worth, clearly you don't "know the laws" at all, since apart from in very limited circumstances you're not allowed to have German and Thai dual nationality. Plenty do, but it's not allowed.

Nonsense you are talking. They came with a Schengen visa or had already a employer to work for. And for the title you have to apply in Germany and not at a embassy. You show me again you know nothing about Europe and laws!

[JamesE]

10 hours ago, Sgtsabai said:

 We need our government, which some of us fought for, and all of us are still citizens of, to come to our aid and furnish vaccines much as other countries are doing for their citizens. What happened to the idea of America leading the world in doing the right thing?

In a perfect world, yes. But Americans in general have voted *against* politicians in favor of rational public health and universal healthcare and *for* politicians supporting for-profit medical service for many decades. To expect that to suddenly change and the rainbows and unicorns to come dancing across the sky is wishful thinking. The US - speaking as a citizen myself - has lost any moral compass it ever had in a societal-level quest for personal gain and comfort. If you asked *any* "conservative" member of Congress what should be done with vaccinating expat Americans I guarantee the answers you will get will range from "sounds like socialized medicine to me" to "they abandoned their country, why should I care".

[Stonker]

14 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Nonsense you are talking. They came with a Schengen visa or had already a employer to work for. And for the title you have to apply in Germany and not at a embassy. You show me again you know nothing about Europe and laws!

... so the German embassies are all wrong ...

 

... and the German Ministry of the Interior when they say that under Section 12 of the Nationality Act "one aim of German nationality law is to avoud creating multiple nationality through naturalization as far as possible." ...

 

... and the EU (Schengen Visa Info) when they say that "you have to give up your previous nationality unless: ..." ....

 

... it's a hard call, but on balance I think I'll go along with the Interior Ministry's, the Embassies' and the EU's views ...

 

[TobyAndrews]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, I can't be bothered to go down this particular rabbit warren, where if someone disagrees with you then you accuse them of being a sock.

If I recall, @Paco was accused of being @Isaan John a couple of days ago.

According to Thailand and Astra Zeneca, they bought it from Astra Zeneca.  I doubt they're both lying.

Only if Britain's lying, since Britain's said repeatedly they haven't given any vaccines to any other countries yet.

Why would I need to look it up? I'm well aware of it, and I've never disputed it before and I'm not disputing it now.

You must have me confused with someone else.

Again.

Yes well let us take this simple point which you omitted. You stated  "SiamBioscience  has never produced a vaccine and has apparently to produce one dose commercially"

It is up there above in your post. Yet CTV news anounced SiamBioscience have delivered to The Thailand Ministry of Health early this month. Before the expected date of 7th of June.

Squirm out of that . . .