News Forum - Singapore hangs a fifth person in four months

[vlad]

I wonder if those wanting less harsher punishments for drug offenders would feel watching their Son or Daughter go from a beautiful kid with their life in front of them decline to a thieving wreck full of bruises and scabs and finally receiving that phone call were sorry we found your child dead in the gutter from a drug overdose before there 20. Would you still want the person dealing the drugs that killed your child being counseled?  

[DesperateOldHand]

2 hours ago, 23RD said:

I nearly choked on my cornflakes there astro reading your post.

Now you're a person who wants to decriminalise drugs the funding source for misery for millions of people around the World in the shape of organised crime,human trafficking, terrorism,  and indebted servitude. 

My stance is zero tolerance so I'll say again well done Singapore for hanging a 5th trafficker in 4 months.

What of the highly accepted pharmaceutical drugs and associated medical practices that kill twenty fold to those that dabble in the so called, and extremely fabricated, illicit stimulants? And all quite accepted....

 

In the worlds of organised crime, there could be nothing more criminally organised than big pharma and allopathic medical practices. 

[longwood50]

11 hours ago, astro said:

Draconian laws obviously do not stop people from doing things against the laws.

Oh really.  Singapore has 2.9 cases of rape per 100,000 population. Egypt .11 per 100,000 population.  New York 28 per 100,000.  I am sure you are right that the "fear of being" either executed or life in prison as is the case in Singapore and Egypt is not a reason why their rape rates are so low.  

BS.  The guy is New York that beat the Thai actress had 44 prior arrests.  In Singapore he would not have been out of prison with that kind of record if he was still alive or not.  Not any different than speeding.  Give someone a 100 baht fine and they will speed not worrying about the consequeces.  Give someone a week in jail for speeding and I will bet you any amount of money the incidence of speeding will go down. 

[astro]

4 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Oh really.  Singapore has 2.9 cases of rape per 100,000 population. Egypt .11 per 100,000 population.  New York 28 per 100,000.  I am sure you are right that the "fear of being" either executed or life in prison as is the case in Singapore and Egypt is not a reason why their rape rates are so low.  

The maximum sentence for rape in New York is 25 years, similar to Singapore and Egypt. There is no death penalty nor a life sentence for rape in either of these places. Marital rape is legal in Egypt - could that have an impact on the crime figures?

 

Anyway, the topic isn't rape but the death penalty for drug offences in Singapore - it hasn't deterred the guys who have been executed, nor the ones who haven't been caught.

[Tim_Melb]

8 hours ago, vlad said:

I wonder if those wanting less harsher punishments for drug offenders would feel watching their Son or Daughter go from a beautiful kid with their life in front of them decline to a thieving wreck full of bruises and scabs and finally receiving that phone call were sorry we found your child dead in the gutter from a drug overdose before there 20. Would you still want the person dealing the drugs that killed your child being counseled?  

Ah yes the parents of a child like that did not contribute to the situation in any way I'm sure all the blame goes to the dealers they bought the drugs from over the years that lead to the death. 

[Tim_Melb]

Capital punishment is unjustifiable. It is not a deterrent, people keep committing these crimes in countries where they have the death sentence, this proves its not a deterrent. The fact you cannot release somebody from death when they are proven not guilty years after being found guilty makes any state that has capital punishment a country of murderers. Stupid people will argue that there are cases where there is no doubt but history has consistently proven that this is not true. Courts and Jurys have found people guilty of murders and other capital crimes many, many times where they and the public have believed there was no doubt and then the people have been proven innocent years later. It is not acceptable to say these people are collateral damage, acceptable collateral damage is when the deaths are unavoidable. Executions are avoidable. Life sentences are a worst punishment anyway and are reversible when mistakes are made. 

[astro]

9 hours ago, vlad said:

I wonder if those wanting less harsher punishments for drug offenders would feel watching their Son or Daughter go from a beautiful kid with their life in front of them decline to a thieving wreck full of bruises and scabs and finally receiving that phone call were sorry we found your child dead in the gutter from a drug overdose before there 20. Would you still want the person dealing the drugs that killed your child being counseled?  

I am glad you are not proposing to incarcerate the consumers and throw away the keys or such. Even though you know that there would be no dealers if there weren't people prepared to pay whatever price and commit crimes to get the money.

That we can agree on.

[longwood50]

14 hours ago, astro said:

Anyway, the topic isn't rape but the death penalty for drug offences in Singapore - it hasn't deterred the guys who have been executed, nor the ones who haven't been caught.

Your comment was that severe punishment does not deter crime.  I am pointing out that crimes if they are punished severely are "less likely" to occur.  

Also your figure of 25 years IS THE MAXIMUM not the typical. 

NY Penal Law § 70.02 establishes the following sentences for violent felony offenses: Class D Violent Felony (Rape in the Second Degree) – At least 2 years, with a maximum of 7 years. Class B Violent Felony (Rape in the First Degree) – At least 5 years, with a maximum of 25 years

Now this is from the Dept of Justice. 

 

 

17 months on average for drug trafficking is THE NORM. 

 

And you wonder why the USA has a drug problem.  Singapore does not "make up" fake long sentences.  You are caught drug trafficking you are in all liklihood going to be executed.  Drug dealers in the USA know that the rewards from drug trafficking outweigh the risks.  One thing for sure, Singpore does not get repeat offenders. 

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp16.pdf

 

[23RD]

22 hours ago, DesperateOldHand said:

What of the highly accepted pharmaceutical drugs and associated medical practices that kill twenty fold to those that dabble in the so called, and extremely fabricated, illicit stimulants? And all quite accepted....

In the worlds of organised crime, there could be nothing more criminally organised than big pharma and allopathic medical practices. 

Agreed my friend without going off topic big Pharma holds to much power. 

[longwood50]

4 hours ago, 23RD said:

there could be nothing more criminally organised than big pharma

Not a problem you are free not to use any of the products they develop.  Let me know how that works out for you. 

[23RD]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

Not a problem you are free not to use any of the products they develop.  Let me know how that works out for you. 

I'd answer that but I 'd be off topic. 

[astro]

13 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Your comment was that severe punishment does not deter crime.  I am pointing out that crimes if they are punished severely are "less likely" to occur.  

Yeah, but it is simply not true that there are life sentence or death penalty for rape in Singapore, contrary to your claim.

In Singapore, having some Cannabis in your suitcase is a more severe crime than raping a teenager in a dark backstreet.

Think about it!

[astro]

7 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Not a problem you are free not to use any of the products they develop. 

The same applies to clandestine labs and the illegal substances they produce. Your own fault if you feel you want to indulge, isn't it?

[Benroon]

On 7/25/2022 at 2:17 PM, longwood50 said:

Perhaps, but lets me say I am skeptical.  Do you have any links to these stories? They sound like urban legend. 

Is justice perfect no, however if it is indeed fair a person can certainly be correctly assessed and  judged as a "drug dealer" versus someone who is aprehended with drugs in their possession. 

 

The second case I know the people concerned personally, and won’t be giving names out anytime soon, the first was in Phuket regarding gym ownerships but no I can’t be arsed to find links as I will spend about a nanosecond worrying if someone disbelieves me. The planting of drugs isn’t uncommon to remove a pest here. 

I know justice isn’t perfect, far far from it but we were debating death sentences, so if as you admit it isn’t perfect should we be executing anyone on an imperfect system ? 

[longwood50]

5 hours ago, Benroon said:

I know justice isn’t perfect, far far from it but we were debating death sentences, so if as you admit it isn’t perfect should we be executing anyone on an imperfect system ?

Lets just say "it isn't perfect"  however the typical sentence for drug dealing in the USA is 17 months.  Over 100,000 people die each year from drug overdoses, mostly from illegal drugs.  So if I have any "pity" over the deaths of innocent people it is for the 100,000 that die needlessly because some low life choses to inflict their poison on society.  That is to say nothing of the lives destroyed in the families of those 100,000 people and the violence that surrounds the crime associated with drugs.  You only need to look at Chicago death tolls each week to demonstrate that far more  deaths are occuring because of drug related gang violence than from any "innocent" drug dealers who are executed.  

Certainly if someone is convicted multiple times for being a drug dealer and is subsequently executed your arguement about killing an "innocent person" goes completely out the window. 

[longwood50]

13 hours ago, astro said:

The same applies to clandestine labs and the illegal substances they produce. Your own fault if you feel you want to indulge, isn't it?

Yes it is.  The fact is that there is this misguided notion that people should invest their money into companies including pharmaceutical companies and risk losing it.  However when those same companies produce something of value such as the Covid vaccine they should not profit from it or that they should only profit a little.  

If a person objects to a particular drug company or drug.  No problem, don't use it.  However don't bemoan the fact there is no treatment for a particular disease or vaccine to prevent it and when a company invests billions and produces such a cure or vaccine call them a  crooked enterprise.  In India alone there are 3,500 drug companies with 10,500 manufacturing facilities.  Hardly a monopoly.  

Merck spent over $1 billion in an attempt to come up with a Covid vaccine.  That money resulted in no marketable product.  By contrast, Pfizer did come up with an effective treatment.  To those who are successful should be the rewards for achievement.  In addition though Pfizer is continuing to sell its vaccine, there is no guarantee that it will continue to be profitable.  If another drug company unveils an even more effective vaccine or cure then Pfizers profits will evaporate.  

So don't like drug companies, fine dont use them but don't complain when you are in the hospital in need of life savings drugs and they are the only ones who produce them. 

 

[astro]

2 hours ago, longwood50 said:

however the typical sentence for drug dealing in the USA is 17 months.

The topic isn't drug dealing in the US, but the death penalty in Singapore.

2 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Certainly if someone is convicted multiple times for being a drug dealer and is subsequently executed your arguement about killing an "innocent person" goes completely out the window. 

In Singapore, a first offence may attract the death penalty.

[Tim_Melb]

7 hours ago, Benroon said:

The second case I know the people concerned personally, and won’t be giving names out anytime soon, the first was in Phuket regarding gym ownerships but no I can’t be arsed to find links as I will spend about a nanosecond worrying if someone disbelieves me. The planting of drugs isn’t uncommon to remove a pest here. 

I know justice isn’t perfect, far far from it but we were debating death sentences, so if as you admit it isn’t perfect should we be executing anyone on an imperfect system ? 

Exactly especially when it has been shown repeatedly that the death penalty is not a bigger deterrent than a a long prison sentence. In reality the people that commit these crimes do not even spend a second thinking about the consequences of being caught so the punishment is only relevant after the fact. 

[Benroon]

5 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Lets just say "it isn't perfect"  however the typical sentence for drug dealing in the USA is 17 months.  Over 100,000 people die each year from drug overdoses, mostly from illegal drugs.  So if I have any "pity" over the deaths of innocent people it is for the 100,000 that die needlessly because some low life choses to inflict their poison on society.  That is to say nothing of the lives destroyed in the families of those 100,000 people and the violence that surrounds the crime associated with drugs.  You only need to look at Chicago death tolls each week to demonstrate that far more  deaths are occuring because of drug related gang violence than from any "innocent" drug dealers who are executed.  

Certainly if someone is convicted multiple times for being a drug dealer and is subsequently executed your arguement about killing an "innocent person" goes completely out the window. 

You're straying from the subject again re death sentence - HUNDREDS of death row prisoners have been released after new evidence came to light - so hundreds would be dead now if the bloodthirsty had their way. Those hundreds would all have had families too much like the families you mention. Just imagine that for a second, your brother/father/mother gets executed for a crime when you know they were watching TV with you at the time! Humans are very prone to mistakes and I personally find it utterly incredible we have death sentences where one human being will wilfully end another human beings life. It's a race to the bottom.

As for drugs I've no time for the pushers, the vultures etc etc, the awful seedy backstreets, but isn't it the law of supply and demand ? If I wake up one day and think you know what I've heard all about this heroin buzz and I want to try it, and I've heard it's amazing, and then I push it and I push it and I push it (chasing the dragon) what percentage of my death is attributable to me or the supplier ? If I don't want it, he can't sell it.

As for the drug violence - simples legalise it in a controlled environment, the Portugal experience over the last decade is deemed by many countries to have been a success with Spain and others looking to adopt it. Take the profit out of drugs and guess what happens ....

However now I'm digressing too, I've yet to hear a single rational argument for the death penalty apart from the ludicrous 'they can't do it again' - there is not a shred of evidence it is a deterrent so maybe you have something else. It simply appeases the knuckledraggers.

[longwood50]

19 hours ago, Benroon said:

HUNDREDS of death row prisoners have been released after new evidence came to light

That is a baldface exaggeration.  First off in the USA a total of 173 people NOT HUNDREDS have been released from death row since 1973.  Now that does not mean they were not necessarily guilty but that evidence either exonerated them or evidence that led to their conviction was thrown out. 

I am not suggesting that someone with a first offense for drug trafficking be immediately executed.  However giving the average sentence of 17 months in the USA for drug trafficking is hardly a deterrent.  When you have a person with multiple offenses for drug trafficking it is hardly at all likely that somehow you convicted an innocent person.  When someone continues to show reckless disregard for other human life, yes I am totally for making sure they don't repeat it in the future yet again. 

Your comment that the death penalty is no deterrent, funny in countries that severely punish certain crimes like drug trafficking their problem with drug trafficking is far less than the USA.  As for "legalizing drugs" the only difference would be who benefited from the legalization.  Now it is the criminal element.  If legalized the government agencies that ran the drug centers would be the beneficiarly  That idea is like to cure underage drinking to make alcohol available to everyone.  Great, we would now not only have drunk drivers on the road killing us we could legally have people legally using drugs driving while impaired. 

These figures are irrefutable.  Each and every year 100,000 people in the USA alone die from drug overdoses.  So if I have any pity it is for them and their families.  If saving lives were really your goal hint:  100,0000 annually is more than 173 over the course of 49 years.  There have only been 1,547 total executions since the 1970's FOR ALL OFFENSES.  So hundreds saved is bull pucky.  Common sense tells you that severe punishment is a deterrent.  If your fine for speeding was 100 baht, you would not think twice about speeding.  If it was a month in jail, I suggest you would mind your speed carefully.  At 17 months as an average sentence, the typical drug dealer just assumes some time behind bars is a "cost of doing business" 



 

[longwood50]

23 hours ago, astro said:

In Singapore, a first offence may attract the death penalty.

Yes you are correct.  That is one reason why Singapore has such a low crime rate in general.  It is called zero tolerance.  Again, I seriously doubt that Singapore goes out of its way to execute someone without pretty substantial evidence that they were a drug dealer.  In any event, the solution is pretty obvious.  You don't want to risk being executed in Singapore, don't bring drugs into the country and you don't have any problems. 

[Benroon]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:06 PM, longwood50 said:

That is a baldface exaggeration.  First off in the USA a total of 173 people NOT HUNDREDS have been released from death row since 1973.  Now that does not mean they were not necessarily guilty but that evidence either exonerated them or evidence that led to their conviction was thrown out. 

I am not suggesting that someone with a first offense for drug trafficking be immediately executed.  However giving the average sentence of 17 months in the USA for drug trafficking is hardly a deterrent.  When you have a person with multiple offenses for drug trafficking it is hardly at all likely that somehow you convicted an innocent person.  When someone continues to show reckless disregard for other human life, yes I am totally for making sure they don't repeat it in the future yet again. 

Your comment that the death penalty is no deterrent, funny in countries that severely punish certain crimes like drug trafficking their problem with drug trafficking is far less than the USA.  As for "legalizing drugs" the only difference would be who benefited from the legalization.  Now it is the criminal element.  If legalized the government agencies that ran the drug centers would be the beneficiarly  That idea is like to cure underage drinking to make alcohol available to everyone.  Great, we would now not only have drunk drivers on the road killing us we could legally have people legally using drugs driving while impaired. 

These figures are irrefutable.  Each and every year 100,000 people in the USA alone die from drug overdoses.  So if I have any pity it is for them and their families.  If saving lives were really your goal hint:  100,0000 annually is more than 173 over the course of 49 years.  There have only been 1,547 total executions since the 1970's FOR ALL OFFENSES.  So hundreds saved is bull pucky.  Common sense tells you that severe punishment is a deterrent.  If your fine for speeding was 100 baht, you would not think twice about speeding.  If it was a month in jail, I suggest you would mind your speed carefully.  At 17 months as an average sentence, the typical drug dealer just assumes some time behind bars is a "cost of doing business" 



 

‘A baldface exaggeration’ that is only 27 from fact ? Lol hardly an exaggeration is it and even then deathpenaltyinfo.org have it at 189. Further they state that of all executions 4% were innocent and yet there are still people that say what the hell that’s just fine until it’s their family. It defies belief in a world where compassion and humanity are going out the window. So again is the execution of innocents a price worth paying for a revenge culture ? Let’s get that down to a yes or no please. 

Re the silly legalisation paragraph - You probably need to raise the argument maturity levels regarding the legalisation of drugs. It would clearly be under controlled conditions with the emphasis on cure as opposed to pushing. I doubt, in conjunction with drug companies, the government would make any ‘profit’ apart from the direct consequences of getting people off the stuff. A little embarrassed I had to point that out. 

So which countries death penalty has had a material effect on crime numbers please - I’m genuinely interested. ie please don’t just quote total numbers as that would clearly be a nonsense. 

[Benroon]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:10 PM, longwood50 said:

Yes you are correct.  That is one reason why Singapore has such a low crime rate in general.  It is called zero tolerance.  Again, I seriously doubt that Singapore goes out of its way to execute someone without pretty substantial evidence that they were a drug dealer.  In any event, the solution is pretty obvious.  You don't want to risk being executed in Singapore, don't bring drugs into the country and you don't have any problems. 

According to Reuters the Singapore law minister himself stated drug trafficking had worsened from 2019-2020 in the same year Singapore executions ramped up and they denied a record amount of appeals for clemency.

Where’s the death penalty deterrent in that little lot ? 

[longwood50]

4 minutes ago, Benroon said:

So which countries death penalty

Several points you are a typical liberal in the sense WHICH COUNTRY WITH LIBERAL penalties for drug trafficking have low incidence of drug trafficking.  PS the USA has on average 17 months for drug trafficking.  Fact 100,000 people die each year from the illegal drugs these despicable people push.  So in your mind, the lives of those responsible for those deaths are somehow more important than the lives of the 100,000 people who die each and every year becauses of their activities. 

All one has to do is look at recent events in Thailand with the sanctioning of marijuana to see that people who were previously reluctant to try it are not becoming addicted to it.  So this idea that legalizing drugs to stop the drug traffickers is ludicrous.  All you do is put the government in the role of being the pusher and you likely increase the number of users. 

Perhaps you fear an innocent person being executed.  Let me say, I have a far greater faith that the governments will excercise extreme caution in executing people for drug trafficking.  When however they see someone who is repeatedly arrested that is not a "mistake" that is a pattern. 
 

Your arguement that the death penalty is not a deterrent is just as hollow as saying that a 100 baht fine for drunk driving is just as much a deterrent as a penalty of 1 year in jail.   If I fear only 17 months in jail in the USA but can make millions I am more likely to do it than if I know if I am caught I am going to be executed and not in 30 years but in 30 days.  A large proportion of those on "death row" die in prison not on the gallows. 

Show me where your lenient attitude towards drug trafficking has lessened the incidence of drug related deaths in the USA.  

I say be caught for drug trafficking a severe punishment.  Do it again and make sure that the person does not reak death on other people again.  You see I have more empathy for the victims of the drug trafficker than I do for the life of the drug trafficker.  Call that barbarian if you must. 

[longwood50]

10 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Where’s the death penalty deterrent in that little lot ?

Are you suggesting that the death penalty will totally eliminate drug trafficking?  If so, no I don't think it will.  However do I think that harsh penalties for drug trafficking and the death penalty for repeated offenders will lessen it. Yes I do.  Will it deter every person, no.  Some will still chance it, others will find the death penalty a severe deterrent and not enter the trade.  One thing is for sure if you execute repeat offenders their life of pushing drugs is over with permanently.  

Contrast that to the situtation in New York where a man was arrested 44 times yet still on the streets and he beat a Thai actress.  Lenient punsihment only leads to disregard for the consequences of ones actions. 


One only has to look at what happened in California where the penalties for shoplifting were removed.  Now the city is rampant with shoplifters.