News Forum - BREAKING: Former Japanese PM Shinzo Abe dies following earlier shooting

[Thaiger]

LATEST: The former Japanese prime minister, 67 year old Shinzo Abe, has been pronounced dead following a shooting during an outdoor speech earlier today. He was rushed to hospital by doctors were unable to save him. Shinzo Abe died in the hospital where he was receiving medical treatment, near to the attack in the city of Nara, according to a senior Liberal Democratic Party official speaking to public broadcaster NHK. Abe was shot at twice, the first allegedly missed with the second shot hitting him in the side of the neck. The former PM’s attacker has been arrested. The video […]

The story BREAKING: Former Japanese PM Shinzo Abe dies following earlier shooting as seen on Thaiger News.

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[Fanta]

Japan still hang people and especially for murder. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Japan

[ThaiEyes]

RIP Shinzo Abe. You had a good run up until Covid and you resigned, which was the right thing to do. Still, this was no way to die. 

[23RD]

RIP Shinzo Abe a Man of integrity that served his Country to the best of his ability. 

[TiT]

One of the few world leaders I had respected, this is shocking news to wake up to.

[riclag]

Rip  Mr. Abe !  Cowardly SOB that executed you needs to meet the chair right soon!

[Vigo]

Not a particularly nice man. He was an ultra nationalist extreme right wing  politician.  Abe came from a family who profited from the illegal invasion and occupation of  Manchuria and SE Asia. Blood money   and he never expressed his remorse.  When he was PM would not allow Japan  to accept responsibility for its war crimes.  Instead, he would go on the yearly pilgrimage to the Japan war criminals shrine and salute the murderers and rapists of Japan's WWII killing machine.

There is no integrity with his Nippon Kaigi faction and they would gladly toss out every western national from Japan and SE Asia and reassert Japan's dominance. 

Japan  has a long history of political assassinations and  Abe most likely upset another right wing faction or some Yakuza mobster. Sorry to see someone die, but in the world of Japan's right wing nationalists, this isn't a surprise.

[Shishi]

Nihon today lost one of its fine men, RIP Abe San, My most sincere condolences to your family.

[HolyCowCm]

Two great Abe leaders shot and killed. In a sense this felt almost like John Lennon being murdered.

RIP tohim.

[HiuMak]

Shocking news with this assassination, especially in Japan. 

[Zorba_the_Geek]

Why do the nutters always target the better political figures?

Why can't they have a go at some of the world's biggest PITA personalities? 

 

 

[HolyCowCm]

Not many leaders or ex leaders that I care an iotta about, but he was one of a kind.

[BigHewer]

9 hours ago, Vigo said:

When he was PM would not allow Japan  to accept responsibility for its war crimes.  Instead, he would go on the yearly pilgrimage to the Japan war criminals shrine and salute the murderers and rapists of Japan's WWII killing machine.

Show me some evidence that Shinzo Abe made an annual visit to Yasukuni Shrine while serving as Prime Minister.

(hint: there is none)

Some of your post is worthy of reflection, but a tad insensitive, hours after the man has been shot? 

[HiuMak]

7 hours ago, Zorba_the_Geek said:

Why do the nutters always target the better political figures?

Why can't they have a go at some of the world's biggest PITA personalities? 

Putin should be the target instead

[Vigo]

14 hours ago, BigHewer said:

Show me some evidence that Shinzo Abe made an annual visit to Yasukuni Shrine while serving as Prime Minister.

(hint: there is none)

Some of your post is worthy of reflection, but a tad insensitive, hours after the man has been shot? 

In 2013 Abe visited the shrine and it resulted in international outrage, with resulting expressions of pain and anger,   https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-25517205   No one had visited the shrine since a preceding PM visit in 2006, that resulted in international protest and the  nationalist right wing leadership lost election.  Once the  right wing nationalist Abe gained power in 2013, he sent a message that the nationalist agenda was back. He miscalculated because China, Korea and the USA objected. His government was told in no uncertain terms that if Japan wanted trade agreements with the three it would have to stop glorifying the rapists and savages who turned Korean women into prostitutes, who engaged in unethical medical experiments on tens of thousands of Chinese and who forced millions of SE Asians and  POWs into slave labour. Abe behaved himself until he resigned as PM in 2020. However, in his capacity as a key leader in the nationalist movement and the elder voice of exclusionary right wing political philosophy he went to  pay homage.  That speaks to the man's sincerity and integrity. www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-54216632

It is galling to read the praise of the man because he did not once acknowledge the responsibility of Japan for its war crimes. It's a contrast to Germany which owns its history. Whatever, criticisms one  may have a Germany, it hasn't shirked its history and because of that Germany and its political leadership have the moral high ground. Today's Germany is different from 1935 Germany. Unfortunately, Japan's political factions, particularly its nationalist factions never changed. Abe was part of the resistance to apologize and to accept responsibility  for the damage  Japan caused.   Korea is the fractured mess it is today because of Japan. China is a communist state in large part because of the Japanese occupation. Indochina would have a different outcome had it not been for the Japanese disruption.

And no, I do not celebrate the  murder of Mr. Abe. It is an obvious tragedy. Unfortunately, Japan (and Korea) have a history of political faction violence. The right wing nationalist  groups have a long history of extortion and ties to organized crime.  Here's some background information;    https://theconversation.com/shinzo-abes-killing-the-history-of-political-violence-in-japan-186679

I just find it very galling to read comments of praising Abe, as it seems those making the claims are oblivious to the political position of the nationalist groups whom Abe represented. One must look at the  whole picture and not just the small portion that was  visible to white westerners.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Vigo

[BigHewer]

11 hours ago, Vigo said:

In 2013 Abe visited the shrine

Correct, however this doesn’t address the question in the post you replied to.

On 7/8/2022 at 11:54 PM, Vigo said:

When he was PM would not allow Japan  to accept responsibility for its war crimes.  Instead, he would go on the yearly pilgrimage to the Japan war criminals shrine

Yearly pilgrimage is it? 2013 yes. Show me the link for his 2014 visit. And 2015? Where’s the link for 2016? Which media covered his 2017 visit? How about 2018? He was still PM in 2019, how about that visit?

None of of these links exist because it is not true. And you’ve framed the argument of your first post around this erroneous statement. This detracts from the credibility of the rest of your opinions. 
 

12 hours ago, Vigo said:

I just find it very galling to read comments of praising Abe

Gadzooks man, he’s just been executed by a lunatic with a shotgun. Have you no compassion? 

Happy to debate post-war repentance, but this is neither the thread nor the time for it.

[Vigo]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:25 PM, BigHewer said:

Correct, however this doesn’t address the question in the post you replied to.

Yearly pilgrimage is it? 2013 yes. Show me the link for his 2014 visit. And 2015? Where’s the link for 2016? Which media covered his 2017 visit? How about 2018? He was still PM in 2019, how about that visit?

None of of these links exist because it is not true. And you’ve framed the argument of your first post around this erroneous statement. This detracts from the credibility of the rest of your opinions. 
 

Gadzooks man, he’s just been executed by a lunatic with a shotgun. Have you no compassion? 

Happy to debate post-war repentance, but this is neither the thread nor the time for it.

I will explain again. Abe was PM of Japan 2X

1st term was only 1 year- 26 September 2006 until 26 September 2007 he visited  Yasukini and there was international condemnation

2nd term  26 December 2012 until 16 September 2020

As was previously explained, Japan came under serious pressure not to flaunt the glorification of war criminals in the face of its victims. PM Abe attended the shrines regularly by proxy. Proxy visits are the same as in person visits for VIP, and this was accomplished by Abe sending ritual offerings. this was reported multiple times, such as this in 2017 Rather than attend in person, Abe sends a ritual offering on several occasions in an effort to improve ties with China and South Korea, which have been strained by territorial and other disputes.  https://www.reuters.com/article/cnews-us-japan-yasukuni-idCAKBN1CL355-OCATP

It was documented again in 2019 Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe sent a ritual offering to the controversial Yasukuni shrine for war dead on Thursday, the anniversary of Japan’s World War Two surrender, but refrained from visiting in person amid tense ties with South Korea.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ww2-anniversary-japan/japan-pm-abe-sends-offering-to-yasukuni-shrine-for-war-dead-kyodo-idUSKCN1V500Q

Abe made a personal visit to the shrine in 2020 and again in April 2022  as he returned to active politics. http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20220421000729

Do you know  what the concept of good faith and integrity means? In this case it means not  visiting the shrine in person and not by proxy. You are excusing Abe's celebration of  horrible war criminals because he did not make in person visits every year  to Yakusini Shrine. Well, the sending of ritual offerings when he did not deliver them himself makes clear the man's intent.

It boggles the mind that the visit to the Yasukini shrine is acceptable. Abe's grandfather Kishi Nobusuke should have been swinging at the end of a rope too, but the USA cleaned up his record  because they though he would be their stooge in government after the war. It was Abe's grandfather who co-signed the declaration of war on the USA and gave orders for the attack on Pearl Harbor. Abe's grandfather wasn't called the Monster of the Showa for nothing,  It's ok though, because he repaid the USA back with gusto when he caused a wave of anti USA sentiment during his tenure as PM in 1957.  Trump embraced Abe, just like the crook Nixon embraced Kishi at Fenway ballpark when Kishi visited the USA as PM. I bet the US pacific war POWs were delighted at seeing that.  Abe gave his tribute at the  war shrine because his family was tied to those war criminals.  

The double standard applied here is incredible. Obsessing on whether Abe showed up in person or not to deliver his ritual offerings misses the big picture; the man's intent, which was to glorify many evil people and their evil acts.

Yes, it is unfortunate he was assassinated, but the nationalist movement to which he belonged had a long history of disappearing people. Abe  got to experience what his grandfather's faction had done to Chinese children and POWs, except instead of bayonet in the gut, it was something else.

[BigHewer]

7 hours ago, Vigo said:

The double standard applied here is incredible. Obsessing on whether Abe showed up in person or not to deliver his ritual offerings misses the big picture

Actually no it doesn’t. My point here is that you were wrong. Not deliberately I presume, just misinformed. it’s misleading for the casual reader. 

Rather than acknowledge your error, you deflect with an argument I’m not interested in having. 

[Vigo]

3 hours ago, BigHewer said:

Actually no it doesn’t. My point here is that you were wrong. Not deliberately I presume, just misinformed. it’s misleading for the casual reader. 

Rather than acknowledge your error, you deflect with an argument I’m not interested in having. 

Do you understand the concept of a ritual offering in Japan? Yes or No?  I take it that you do not.

The Yasukini shrine has two "festival" periods when politicians and others make an appearance in person, or in spirit through a ritual offering. Ever since the outrage of 2013, the PMs of Japan  avoid being seen at the war shrine. They instead send ritual offerings which accomplish the same result as an in person visit. The most recent example is PM Kishida's sending of a ritual offering in April. He satisfied the ruling party's right wing nationalist faction with the ritual offering, and avoided a political clash with Japan's neighbors by not going in person.  For those who have no understanding of Japanese culture and who apply white eurocentric interpretations to actions, PM Kishida did not appear at the shrine. However, for  the Japanese, the ritual offering was a very clear statement and was the equivalent of a presence. In Japan, when one can not attend in person, the ritual offering under one's name is acceptable.  Abe physically attended the shrine in each of his 2 terms serving as PM. He sent ritual offerings in every year that he was PM.  He has the shrine 3X since leaving office, while remaining a political presence in his political party.

In respect to morality and ethics, whether a person attends in person or uses a substitute to demonstrate his support and position, there is no difference in the intent. The sending of a ritual offering, is similar to the use of a proxy when participating in a shareholder vote. The proxy user may not be able to attend physically, but the intended presence is there.  Don't get angry at me because you do not understand Japanese protocol or custom as it applies to ritual offerings when presented at religious and festival events. Sending the ritual offering was the equivalent of attending in person. You don't agree and wish to apply european interpretation, to Japanese culture.  Up to you.

[Marble-eye]

On 7/8/2022 at 9:54 PM, Vigo said:

When he was PM would not allow Japan  to accept responsibility for its war crimes.  Instead, he would go on the yearly pilgrimage to the Japan war criminals shrine and salute the murderers and rapists of Japan's WWII killing machine.

So let's get this right, he would not go yearly, am I correct, without spin if possible?

[Vigo]

23 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

So let's get this right, he would not go yearly, am I correct, without spin if possible?

If you are considering this from eurocentric cultural perspective, then ABE made 5 publicly documented  visits in person to the shrine, 2 of which while he was a serving PM and 3 of which while he held leadership positions in his political party.

There were also occasions which were not documented by the media as the visits were done under closed to public circumstances. It is the common practice for political leaders in Japan and South Korea to attend events in an anonymous capacity, particularly for the nationalist right wing politicians. This is to avoid unwanted media attention. I am merely pointing this aspect of reality and am not including this in the count. (The spring visit coincides with local political meetings and rallies.)

If you are considering this from a Japanese cultural perspective,  since the deceased was  Japanese and his audience was Japanese, then he had an annual presence at the shrine. The sending of ritual offerings is the equivalent of being there. For those who have a limited understanding of Japanese social customs and do not understand the practices, and nuances of gestures, gifts and offerings, they will not appreciate the intent nor the significance of the action.

There is no spin. Ritual offerings, have a significance, much as the way people are seated or positioned around the key person at an event.  To the uneducated non Japanese mind it is a silly thing and not noticeable, but for those who have some grasp of the Japanese system of political hierarchy and social status, it means something.  

[Marble-eye]

1 hour ago, Vigo said:

If you are considering this from eurocentric cultural perspective, then ABE made 5 publicly documented  visits in person to the shrine, 2 of which while he was a serving PM and 3 of which while he held leadership positions in his political party.

There were also occasions which were not documented by the media as the visits were done under closed to public circumstances. It is the common practice for political leaders in Japan and South Korea to attend events in an anonymous capacity, particularly for the nationalist right wing politicians. This is to avoid unwanted media attention. I am merely pointing this aspect of reality and am not including this in the count. (The spring visit coincides with local political meetings and rallies.)

If you are considering this from a Japanese cultural perspective,  since the deceased was  Japanese and his audience was Japanese, then he had an annual presence at the shrine. The sending of ritual offerings is the equivalent of being there. For those who have a limited understanding of Japanese social customs and do not understand the practices, and nuances of gestures, gifts and offerings, they will not appreciate the intent nor the significance of the action.

There is no spin. Ritual offerings, have a significance, much as the way people are seated or positioned around the key person at an event.  To the uneducated non Japanese mind it is a silly thing and not noticeable, but for those who have some grasp of the Japanese system of political hierarchy and social status, it means something.  

Oh Vigo, why use one word when a hundred will do.

I'm not going to get a direct answer to my question from you am I, you stated he went there every year on pilgrimage, this is not the case.

However I am going with my best friend to the Bahamas next year, but only by proxy, I will miss out on all the sights and great nightlife, but look at the money I'll save.

[BigHewer]

1 hour ago, Vigo said:

If you are considering this from eurocentric cultural perspective, then ABE made 5 publicly documented  visits in person to the shrine, 2 of which while he was a serving PM

Telling porkies again Vigo

One visit to Yasukuni Shrine while serving as PM.

Shades of Jeremy Paxman and Michael Howard in this exchange, so I won’t  bother asking any more questions.

You were caught out in a falsehood (and now another) and no amount of spin on your part will change that. I don’t usually jump on these things, but you used this falsehood to frame an argument which was out of step with the tone of the thread.

I see now that you are casting aspersions on my knowledge in a desperate attempt to deflect. I don’t do that, but I will make an exception in this case: there is more Japanese cultural knowledge stored in my left earlobe than you will ever know or learn. 
 

 

[Vigo]

7 hours ago, BigHewer said:

Telling porkies again Vigo

One visit to Yasukuni Shrine while serving as PM.

Shades of Jeremy Paxman and Michael Howard in this exchange, so I won’t  bother asking any more questions.

You were caught out in a falsehood (and now another) and no amount of spin on your part will change that. I don’t usually jump on these things, but you used this falsehood to frame an argument which was out of step with the tone of the thread.

I see now that you are casting aspersions on my knowledge in a desperate attempt to deflect. I don’t do that, but I will make an exception in this case: there is more Japanese cultural knowledge stored in my left earlobe than you will ever know or learn. 
 

No, there were 2 visits. 1st Term as PM was 2006-2007 and he physically visited 2006. 2nd PM Term was of 2012/2013-2020. He physically visited in 2013 and (then again in 2020 right after he resigned but still held position in LDP. There were other visits too, while not PM.)

You are quick to accuse me of  a falsehood. ok. You now state that you are an expert in the Japanese culture. Good. Perhaps you took similiar courses in executive hierarchy and rituals as I did before I went to work in Tokyo.   I won't question your expertise, but will ask you the key question: As you understand the concept of a ritual offering in Japan, is the sending of a ritual offering with name (and position) noted, not used as proxy presence at political and corporate events? Yes, or No.  If you say no, fine, we disagree, and  you can rejoice in asserting that a direct physical presence is all that matters and you get to call me a liar. However, if you are the expert on Japanese affairs that you say you are, then I expect that you do understand what I have tried to explain multiple times.  It's about the intent. A Japanese political leader doesn't send an expensive maskaki offering  unless there is an intention of support and that it serves as a statement of presence.

The fact remains that whether Abe physically visited the shrine once or twice or five times, the visit was a sign of support and reverence for the war criminals and the evil that the shrine represents. Calling me a liar doesn't change the fact that Abe was a right wing nationalist who celebrated the war crimes against Japan's victims with his presence at the war shrine. Visiting the shrine while out of office demonstrated Abe's personal view. You seem to disagree. You can call me a liar, but I am in good company with enough historians and political experts with whom I share my view, to not lose sleep over this.  Have a nice day.

[BigHewer]

5 minutes ago, Vigo said:

No, there were 2 visits. 1st Term as PM was 2006-2007 and he physically visited 2006. 2nd PM Term was of 2012/2013-2020. He physically visited in 2013 and (then again in 2020 right after he resigned but still held position in LDP. There were other visits too, while not PM.)

Nonsense. One visit while serving as PM over his two terms. As predicted, spin in your response. Likewise, have a nice day.