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Why take the Vaccine now?


Thaidup
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Seriously, I just read a news article about Cambodia stating that are "officially covid free" and it goes on about 94% of the population have had at least 1 shot, Then states that visitors that are not vaccinated have to quarantine for 1 week, So what is jist here,

Are they worried that someone may come into the country with "IT' and spread it to the population? Seems counter logical, the population is vaccinated but you don't want to take the chance of the virus spreading amongst the vaccinated population?

Someone explain the logic in that, please.

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To be covid free is an obvious disingenuous claim. The virus is endemic everywhere now... and none of us will ever be fully vaccinated so what's the point?

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On 6/10/2022 at 4:02 AM, Freeduhdumb said:

To be covid free is an obvious disingenuous claim. The virus is endemic everywhere now... and none of us will ever be fully vaccinated so what's the point?

I can see the point if i was 87 years old, heck I would risk it.

But for traveling to and from countries, will make any difference,? it is a blatantly stupid argument for a government to say on one hand get the vaccine for covid, then say, we are scared you may have covid.because everyone has the vaccine.

It is like, wear a mask on the motorbike to the restaurant, then when you get inside with everyone you can take off the mask,

I think people are finally waking up to how stupid this whole 2 years has been and are seeing the actual numbnuttery for themselves now.😛

But you watch how they will claim, Oh the masks saved lives or Oh the lockdowns saved lives, they will never admit this catastrophe was way overblown, Back in june 2020, we new it affected the elderly and obese and people with pre existing conditions, Could have simply got everyone back to work and the at risk had to stay in quarantine.

But now the at risk want the healthy unvaxxed to stay away,>>>> bizaroland.

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  • 1 month later...

For the record, I am a molecular biologist, with 30 years in infectious disease. I won't go into details about diagnostics, vaccine efficacy, heard immunity, and probably its been done to death.

The original comment was about the incongruity of Cambodian government statements of being "COVID free" and "fully vaccinated" and continued restrictions on those who, for whatever reason, are not vaccinated.

Its quite simple. Cambodia is neither "COVID free" nor "fully vaccinated". Events of almost 50 years ago mean that Cambodia has one of the worst healthcare systems in the region (on account of virtually all doctors and nurses being killed off in 1975). Healthcare there is very fragile, with little surge capacity, lacking personnel, lacking life saving equipment. Having a majority of the population haing received one shot does not make them "fully vaccinated". While in the West, you think you know the clinical profile of a COVID patient, its not the case in the East (viz what's happened in India), where disease prevalence is quite different.

If Cambodia had a well developed healthcare system, and attendant public healthcare system, possibly it would have a similar border policy. But its not the same, and one should not be imposing first world standards on a poverty stricken third world country.

We won't know the full global story of COVID-19 for 20-30 years. Its taken 120 years and we still don't know what quite happened with Spanish Flu. We won't know which country did things right, and which didn't.  Probably none didn't. Chinese and New Zealand policies might end up being complete disasters for their countries. UK policy has worked out, but its not clear yet, whether by design or by accident (ie. the summer gradual relaxations in 2020 and 2021; was that a deliberate measure to encourage more infections during a period when the NHS had more capacity, and to prepare a population for possible reimposition of control measures. If it was, it was a masterful integration of epidemiology and mass psychology, but I suspect it wasn't that, and luck came into it).

I don't expect the OP to agree at all. Its clear minds have been made up.

 

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8 hours ago, lspab said:

For the record, I am a molecular biologist, with 30 years in infectious disease. I won't go into details about diagnostics, vaccine efficacy, heard immunity, and probably its been done to death.

 

I would have thought a molecular biologist would know how to spell "herd immunity".

 

 

 

Am I expecting too much?

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On 6/9/2022 at 2:02 PM, Freeduhdumb said:

To be covid free is an obvious disingenuous claim. The virus is endemic everywhere now... and none of us will ever be fully vaccinated so what's the point?

Profit and control?

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4 hours ago, Chaimai said:

I would have thought a molecular biologist would know how to spell "herd immunity".

Am I expecting too much?

Or....comprehending that herd immunity was/is a highly fabricated theory.

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13 hours ago, Chaimai said:

I would have thought a molecular biologist would know how to spell "herd immunity".

Am I expecting too much?

No, but you have marked yourself to be added to an Ignore List, if there is such a thing here (I'll look). Hoping for constructive arguments. You might want to check when that posting was done. Ah, the joys of intellisense.

 

The term "Herd Immunity" came from the livestock world. It referred to cows spontaneously aborting, and such a thing spreading through the herd. In the late 19th century, some doctors picked up on the term, but it was popularised in the 1920s and 30s, when eugenics became popularised, and certain individuals started to refer to people as cattle.  Interestingly, the Royal Army Medical Corps used it as a term, in a 1930s article when they claimed to have established "herd immunity" for the "English" (their words) against Malaria, Typhoid, Typhus. Which was a bit odd, because none of those diseases was ever an issue in the United Kingdom. What it was really about was Imperial power and policies. The British Army (the RAMC) had succeeded in keeping "foreign" diseases away from England (and in a sense, we were immune). The thinking was why Smallpox vaccination fell off a cliff when people became convinced it was now a "foreign" disease, and as long as there were no foreigners, there would be no smallpox. Roll on to 1962, and the Bradford smallpox outbreak, thanks to imported cases. Town halls had lines around the street as people got their shots.

Herd Immunity is not a nice term. There should be an alaternative to this term, which belongs firmly in the history books. We are not herds of cattle.

 

Now, to figure how to put you on ignore. Thanaks for your non-contribution. Glad to have helped your posting count.

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14 hours ago, DesperateOldHand said:

Or....comprehending that herd immunity was/is a highly fabricated theory

Maybe natural immunity is a better theory.👍

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12 hours ago, Thaidup said:

Maybe natural immunity is a better theory.👍

Of course.

But....this approach isn't profitable. 

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22 hours ago, Thaidup said:

Maybe natural immunity is a better theory.👍

All immunity is natural, in that the immune system isn't doing something it wouldn't otherwise do. You mean naturally acquired immunity, as opposed to vaccine mediated immunity.

The immune system isn't a theory. It's a well established fact, and we understand our immune systems quite well.

 

It's not all that well remembered about how botched the Salk Polio vaccine launch was. But also how it changed drug manufacture forever.  Salk's Polio vaccine, for which he received a medal from a tearful President Eisenhower, was based on polio virus inactivated using formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a funny thing. its quite unstable; you make it by boiling a formate solution. In a sealed vial, its stable, but as soon as the vial is open, it will degrade within hours.

3 or 4 companies were chosen by the American government to produce the wonder vaccine. But one of the manufacturers didn't quite understand how to make formaldehyde according to Salk's instructions. 6 million doses went out, 200,000 of which contained live virus. These bad batches caused polio in some American kids. As a result, there was a strengthening in clinical trials, which didn't really exist before as we would know them, and the FDA was formed to provide oversight of manufacturers, making sure they knew how to make medicines safely.

Smallpox vaccines are back in the news, following monkeypox vaccines. Those of a certain age will have the telltale scar on their arm. You will still have a decent level of protection after all these years (UK smallpox shots stopped in the 1970s). Its a nasty vaccine to administer. It uses a special large needle. The vaccine, vaccinia virus, is not injected into the arm. Instead the needle gets a drop of the vaccine, and the vaccinator proceeds to essentially stab the arm (of the infant) in a rapid manner, over a small area, until blood is visible. Its brutal, but works.

Seen here in footage from the Bradofrd outbreak (and a difference in messaging then)

 

One reason why Smallpox vaccinations weren't restarted after 911 (there was a serious debate) was because the actual risk of a smallpox attack was outweighed by the risk of adverse events due the vaccine.

Many British, Irish and other European people will be vaccinated against TB; the classic BCG vaccine, in use since the 1920s. Its a live, weakened version of the TB-causing bacterium. It elicits a very strong immune response (at one point, it was considered to give the BCG to the elderly to "turbo charge" prime their immune systems against the Sars-Cov-2 virus. Trials were run in Australia and New Zealand). You don't give it to very young children and anyone with a weak immune system. The US doesn't use it, preferring to monitor the community, because once you are immunized, you can't easily distinguish between the vaccinated and those with latent TB, and the risk of community acquired TB is very low. What is depressing, in some parts of the UK, the incidence of TB is still high enough for doctors to use the BCG vaccine to protect some kids.

So the decision to halt COVID-19 vaccination of the general population in different countries is a complex affair. It will depend on a number of factors, most of which have still not been quantified, as this is still an emerging disease. Its a complex disease. Its certainly not a respiratory disease per se, but is considered a vascular disease. The Spike Protein can really do a number on people, given the way it binds with ACE2, part of the Angiotensin system, an important part of our cardiovascular health (controlling blood pressure among lots of other things). Turns out we don't know Angiotensin nearly as well as we thought. And we will know it much better after all this, which will translate into better care for those with vascular disease. I see good progress has been on a combined Common Cold/COVID-19 vaccine (a cold vaccine being the holy grail for years).

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Now I hear that the USA is not letting "The best Tennis Player in the World" compete because he hasn't had the shot(shots) after the President of said country has had 4 shots and got WhuFlu 2 times in as many weeks, And this tennis player already has natural immunity and is a bit fitter than the Prez.

Is this going a bit too far now, after the crap that went on in Aus? 

And i am seeing in Europe that they are pushing a vaccine ID to cross into countries, Why? It wont stop anyone from catching the WhuFlu?

Some people are joking that he should just fly to Mexico and walk across the boarder claiming asylum and get a free bus to NY,😇

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2 hours ago, Thaidup said:

Now I hear that the USA is not letting "The best Tennis Player in the World" compete because he hasn't had the shot(shots) after the President of said country has had 4 shots and got WhuFlu 2 times in as many weeks, And this tennis player already has natural immunity and is a bit fitter than the Prez.

Is this going a bit too far now, after the crap that went on in Aus? 

And i am seeing in Europe that they are pushing a vaccine ID to cross into countries, Why? It wont stop anyone from catching the WhuFlu?

Some people are joking that he should just fly to Mexico and walk across the boarder claiming asylum and get a free bus to NY,😇

You seem really pre-occupied with this!

 

Just don't take it..........

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  • 2 weeks later...

A recent study has found that after taking 4 doses of the vaccine you can still catch covid19.

The study includes my reading news articles about Anthony Fauci and Prez Joe Biden.

The dumbest thing is that both caught the same infection 2 times in as many weeks, So makes a good reason for me to get the vaccine now hey?👍

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On 8/3/2022 at 1:57 AM, Marc26 said:

You seem really pre-occupied with this!

Just don't take it..........

If I needed a job, I might have no choice.👍

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3 hours ago, Thaidup said:

If I needed a job, I might have no choice.👍

I actually you do need a job!

You retired way too early and worry about shit too much

Too much time on your hands 555

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6 hours ago, DesperateOldHand said:

More important might be to ask:

Why is something that's touted as a vaccine when clearly not a vaccine.

Hmmm....that sounds as if it could be misinformation. Have you got some hard evidence that says it's not?

                                Moderator

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On 8/2/2022 at 11:20 PM, Thaidup said:

And this tennis player already has natural immunity and is a bit fitter than the Prez.

No such thing as natural immunity to Covid19.  Covid 19 is like Polio or Rubella, a viral disease.  This tennis player may not have contracted the virus yet, but that does not mean he has "natural immunity".  Unvaccinated are walking around with the potential of contracting Covid19 which can be deadly or debilitating when not vaccinated

Edited by ExpatPattaya
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On 8/10/2022 at 10:37 PM, Thaidup said:

A recent study has found that after taking 4 doses of the vaccine you can still catch covid19.

The study includes my reading news articles about Anthony Fauci and Prez Joe Biden.

The dumbest thing is that both caught the same infection 2 times in as many weeks, So makes a good reason for me to get the vaccine now hey?👍

Actually, this goes back to case definition. COVID-19 is the disease, not the name of the virus. After over 30 years, we generally know the difference between HIV, HIV-status and AIDS.

COVID-19 is diagnosed through various means. Most commonly it is diagnosed through an in vitro diagnostic test, with confirmation through PCR. In microbiological terms, the absolute gold standard for any viral or bacterial infection is a cell assay. You either culture the bacterium on agar, perform various identifying tests. For viruses, you need to measure whether a suspected virus attacks a particular cell type. No approved test for SAR-Cov2 exists. I know pretty quickly they were able to isolate the virus in monkey cells, and probably now someone has a working assay in human or humanised cells, but that is a long way from being a realistic test to be carried out on a routine basis.

Vaccines, until now, would be described as a sterilizing vaccine or a non-sterilizing vaccine. Sterilizing vaccines, by most lay people, would be assumed to be vaccines that eliminate infection. How do we know they eliminate infection? No dead, dying, sick people is the measure.

But until recently, the way to measure the effectiveness of a vaccine in a population would be the disappearance of cases, the lack of sick people.

The Measles vaccine is generally touted as being one of the most effective vaccines out there. How do we know? A population of vaccinated kids doesn't get measles. How do we know they don't get measles? The lack of a visible rash. The "problem" is that when you start looking at that population in detail; taking blood samples, carrying out molecular tests such as PCR to look for evidence of infection, you do find evidence that vaccinated children can be infected by the measles virus. What you are not finding is evidence of children becoming ill expressing the most profound symptom, a rash. So, the vaccine does a very good job of preventing Measles the illness, which is probably the most important achievement.

COVID-19 is a complex disease, affecting people in different was. For many, its a mild respiratory illness, for others, a life threatening vascular disease. Because the Sars-Cov-2 virus infects cells via the ACE2 receptor, it can find its way to pretty much any part of the body. ACE2 is a very important receptor, tied into our vascular system. And its not well understood. It might have a different role at different times in life; maybe why children are less affected. It has a different role in young men compared to young women. In a very short space of time, we have recognised "COVID-19" through a wide spectrum of symptom. At the same time, this is the first pandemic in history to have been identified through molecular biology.

PCR is great as a presumptive test. But it can't really distinguish between an active and inactive infection. Hence the problems some people experience getting a negative result following a positive. But, its the best science has got right now, in terms of something that can be readily deployed as a routine test. I know there are technologies out there which are better, and closer to being used as a genuine confirmatory test. I suspect in 5 years, we will see these tests being used both in hospitals and in the home.

Are the current first generation SAR2-Cov-2 vaccine effective at reducing COVID-19. I believe they are, if I measure COVID-9 as being something that puts you in hospital. Hospitalisations are reduced, even among those who are at increased risk, and who, until now, been shielding (nullifying the argument that reductions are entirely driven by community acquired immunity).

These vaccines are doing the job we wanted them to do in the first place; reduce death rates, reduce pressures on healthcare systems. The next round of vaccines might start to tackle the presence of SARS-Cov-2.
 

Smallpox vaccination was introduced by Jenner, who improved the Turkish approach of "innoculation", which entailed stuffing a scab from a smallpox victim into the wound of someone who didn't, with the outcome of being either you are dead, or you will never get smallpox.

But British Smallpox vaccination didn't really start in earnest until the 1850s, with the Vaccine Act, making it compulsory for children to be vaccinated. This lead to riots, most notably in Leicester, where doctors then developed the Leicester Method, what we now call Track and Trace, as an alternative. By the 1900s, the Act was watered down, allowing opt outs by parents. By 1947, it was abolished by the Labour Party, following one of its founding principles. Vaccine rates across Europe declined. The re-emergence of the disease in Europe in the 1950s scared the bejesus out of governments, who thought this scourge had been confined to faraway places.

So started in the 1960s, the WHO plan to eliminate Smallpox. By the late 70s, Smallpox was declared effectively extinct.

Polio, following a 40 year campaign, was well on its way to being also wiped out. Conflict in Afghanistan and problems in the Congo put paid to that.

But there are hundreds of vaccines in use, over the last 40-50 years, with one achieving complete success after 200 of development, and 20  years of coordinated roll out.

But success can be measured in different ways. Elimination of the causative agent, reduction in illness, seroconversion rates, uptake rates.

If COVID-19 had happened 20 years ago, with the same vaccines, lay people would have been pretty unified in thinking the vaccine was a complete success. Because there would not have been a PCR test. Diagnosis would probably have been achieved mostly by CT Imaging, and some bloods.

If you are genuinely interested in the achievements of different vaccine campaigns, this is a good primer:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6777997/

If President Biden had not been vaccinated, would he have survived infection? Probably not. In fact, from all descriptions, Biden's recent infection was on the mildest of spectrums. By comparison, President Trump, who's doctor described him as the healthiest President in history  (and the doctor had credentials beyond reproach, and wouldn't lie, would he), needed advanced experimental medical treatment. Boris Johnson, who while actively enjoying cycling, tennis, rugby, nearly died, but for a pair of very diligent nurses who ensure that the First Among Equals survived for another day, along with some brilliant collaboration between the NHS and F1 Mercedes (a largely forgotten story of medical success).

March 2020 marks a remarkable time in Medical history. For the first time ever, an effective vaccine was developed in the middle of a global pandemic. That AZ vaccine, which is a good vaccine, was designed in 48 hours by a team of dedicated researchers at Oxford. Nothing was needed to be changed by the time it made it to production and EUA.

It took Salk 10 years and a President to get the Polio vaccine developed. It took the Australians 15 years and a World War to come up with the first flu vaccine.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/12/2022 at 11:53 AM, ExpatPattaya said:

No such thing as natural immunity to Covid19.  Covid 19 is like Polio or Rubella, a viral disease.  This tennis player may not have contracted the virus yet, but that does not mean he has "natural immunity".  Unvaccinated are walking around with the potential of contracting Covid19 which can be deadly or debilitating when not vaccinated

I can't understand your statement in the 2nd line. " This tennis player may not have contracted the virus yet, but that does not mean he has "natural immunity"

Because he had contracted cov2, recovered, and then decided not get vaxxed.. Logically weighing up the pro's and cons of natural immunity compared to an Emergency Use Authorized Only vaccine?

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On 8/12/2022 at 6:32 PM, lspab said:

Actually, this goes back to case definition. COVID-19 is the disease, not the name of the virus. After over 30 years, we generally know the difference between HIV, HIV-status and AIDS.

COVID-19 is diagnosed through various means. Most commonly it is diagnosed through an in vitro diagnostic test, with confirmation through PCR. In microbiological terms, the absolute gold standard for any viral or bacterial infection is a cell assay. You either culture the bacterium on agar, perform various identifying tests. For viruses, you need to measure whether a suspected virus attacks a particular cell type. No approved test for SAR-Cov2 exists. I know pretty quickly they were able to isolate the virus in monkey cells, and probably now someone has a working assay in human or humanised cells, but that is a long way from being a realistic test to be carried out on a routine basis.

Vaccines, until now, would be described as a sterilizing vaccine or a non-sterilizing vaccine. Sterilizing vaccines, by most lay people, would be assumed to be vaccines that eliminate infection. How do we know they eliminate infection? No dead, dying, sick people is the measure.

But until recently, the way to measure the effectiveness of a vaccine in a population would be the disappearance of cases, the lack of sick people.

The Measles vaccine is generally touted as being one of the most effective vaccines out there. How do we know? A population of vaccinated kids doesn't get measles. How do we know they don't get measles? The lack of a visible rash. The "problem" is that when you start looking at that population in detail; taking blood samples, carrying out molecular tests such as PCR to look for evidence of infection, you do find evidence that vaccinated children can be infected by the measles virus. What you are not finding is evidence of children becoming ill expressing the most profound symptom, a rash. So, the vaccine does a very good job of preventing Measles the illness, which is probably the most important achievement.

COVID-19 is a complex disease, affecting people in different was. For many, its a mild respiratory illness, for others, a life threatening vascular disease. Because the Sars-Cov-2 virus infects cells via the ACE2 receptor, it can find its way to pretty much any part of the body. ACE2 is a very important receptor, tied into our vascular system. And its not well understood. It might have a different role at different times in life; maybe why children are less affected. It has a different role in young men compared to young women. In a very short space of time, we have recognised "COVID-19" through a wide spectrum of symptom. At the same time, this is the first pandemic in history to have been identified through molecular biology.

PCR is great as a presumptive test. But it can't really distinguish between an active and inactive infection. Hence the problems some people experience getting a negative result following a positive. But, its the best science has got right now, in terms of something that can be readily deployed as a routine test. I know there are technologies out there which are better, and closer to being used as a genuine confirmatory test. I suspect in 5 years, we will see these tests being used both in hospitals and in the home.

Are the current first generation SAR2-Cov-2 vaccine effective at reducing COVID-19. I believe they are, if I measure COVID-9 as being something that puts you in hospital. Hospitalisations are reduced, even among those who are at increased risk, and who, until now, been shielding (nullifying the argument that reductions are entirely driven by community acquired immunity).

These vaccines are doing the job we wanted them to do in the first place; reduce death rates, reduce pressures on healthcare systems. The next round of vaccines might start to tackle the presence of SARS-Cov-2.
 

Smallpox vaccination was introduced by Jenner, who improved the Turkish approach of "innoculation", which entailed stuffing a scab from a smallpox victim into the wound of someone who didn't, with the outcome of being either you are dead, or you will never get smallpox.

But British Smallpox vaccination didn't really start in earnest until the 1850s, with the Vaccine Act, making it compulsory for children to be vaccinated. This lead to riots, most notably in Leicester, where doctors then developed the Leicester Method, what we now call Track and Trace, as an alternative. By the 1900s, the Act was watered down, allowing opt outs by parents. By 1947, it was abolished by the Labour Party, following one of its founding principles. Vaccine rates across Europe declined. The re-emergence of the disease in Europe in the 1950s scared the bejesus out of governments, who thought this scourge had been confined to faraway places.

So started in the 1960s, the WHO plan to eliminate Smallpox. By the late 70s, Smallpox was declared effectively extinct.

Polio, following a 40 year campaign, was well on its way to being also wiped out. Conflict in Afghanistan and problems in the Congo put paid to that.

But there are hundreds of vaccines in use, over the last 40-50 years, with one achieving complete success after 200 of development, and 20  years of coordinated roll out.

But success can be measured in different ways. Elimination of the causative agent, reduction in illness, seroconversion rates, uptake rates.

If COVID-19 had happened 20 years ago, with the same vaccines, lay people would have been pretty unified in thinking the vaccine was a complete success. Because there would not have been a PCR test. Diagnosis would probably have been achieved mostly by CT Imaging, and some bloods.

If you are genuinely interested in the achievements of different vaccine campaigns, this is a good primer:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6777997/

If President Biden had not been vaccinated, would he have survived infection? Probably not. In fact, from all descriptions, Biden's recent infection was on the mildest of spectrums. By comparison, President Trump, who's doctor described him as the healthiest President in history  (and the doctor had credentials beyond reproach, and wouldn't lie, would he), needed advanced experimental medical treatment. Boris Johnson, who while actively enjoying cycling, tennis, rugby, nearly died, but for a pair of very diligent nurses who ensure that the First Among Equals survived for another day, along with some brilliant collaboration between the NHS and F1 Mercedes (a largely forgotten story of medical success).

March 2020 marks a remarkable time in Medical history. For the first time ever, an effective vaccine was developed in the middle of a global pandemic. That AZ vaccine, which is a good vaccine, was designed in 48 hours by a team of dedicated researchers at Oxford. Nothing was needed to be changed by the time it made it to production and EUA.

It took Salk 10 years and a President to get the Polio vaccine developed. It took the Australians 15 years and a World War to come up with the first flu vaccine.

And then, After all of that. These vaccines will not stop anyone from catching or spreading Cov2.👍

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